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Last Week Tonight did a great piece last season about the circular logic the NRA and its supporters employ to prevent a rational gun control discussion. They fi

by wnevets 10y ago

Last Week Tonight did a great piece last season about the circular logic the NRA and its supporters employ to prevent a rational gun control discussion. They fight tooth and nail to stop governments from collecting data related to gun deaths than use the lack of good data as the reason why we cant have a gun control debate.

Neliquat 10y ago
With all respect, that segment did nothing to further rational discussion. I do not see how yelling hateful things from across the isle is a 'great piece'. The way forward is finding common ground.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  If one side of the discussion is doing everything they can to prevent a discussion from even happening, what do you suggest be done?
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  Just watched the piece... didn't see any "hateful" things being yelled. Can you point out which statements you meant? What exactly is your definition of hateful? If you are personally a staffer of or one of the 5 million members of the NRA, I guess I could see how you find Oliver's rhetoric harsh... but hateful? And if you're not, why do you take personal offense on the NRA's behalf?
tropo 10y ago
Here is an analogy that might help you understand how the other side is feeling about your "rational gun control" ideas: http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-compromise-illustrated-guide-to-gun-control/ http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-comprom... What can you offer them, other than a smaller piece of what is left of the cake? It's not compromise if you don't offer anything.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Of course it has been a compromise. Effective gun control means something like no private pistol ownership and tightly limited ownership of long guns with small internal magazines. I mean, this is a political non goal, not nearly enough people agree with it, but let's not pretend that rules about pistol grips on rifles mean anything. It would still be quite interesting to have a referendum on a constitutional amendment that provided clear legal powers for such restrictions. Not because I particularly think it would succeed, just to see the numbers.
  - tropo 10y ago
    Heh. No really... what would you give up? Compromise means you have to provide something to the other side. I hope you looked at the link I posted. Suggestion: fixing gun rights to be like driving rights, recognized in every state, so that driving from New Hampshire to Texas with a gun isn't a felony. (imagine if you needed a separate driver's license for each state) Suggestion: allow mufflers on firearms to help prevent hearing loss. We allow mufflers on cars. Suggestion: where carry is allowed, it may be concealed, and non-concealed is never worse than a fine. Got any ideas? Remember, it has to be something the gun owners would actually like. Without giving something up, you aren't making a compromise. You're just taking more of the cake.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      No where is it written that the path forward must be compromise. My argument is that a healthy society would choose to let people have a tictac rather than arguing about cake. The taking away the cake is just a rhetorical framing device to make the argument about taking something away rather than about what is reasonable for society as it exists today. You say I hope you looked at the link I posted. but apparently didn't pay much attention to where I conceded that it is not politically plausible to move to a strict gun control regime in the US (and I readily concede that steps less than a strict gun control regime will not be especially effective in reducing gun violence). I think the first step towards a better situation with guns in the US is to convince people to stop owning them using means other than the law. Then I don't have to compromise with them anymore to get stronger laws.

by wnevets 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago

With all respect, that segment did nothing to further rational discussion. I do not see how yelling hateful things from across the isle is a 'great piece'. The way forward is finding common ground.

cortesoft 10y ago
If one side of the discussion is doing everything they can to prevent a discussion from even happening, what do you suggest be done?
MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
Just watched the piece... didn't see any "hateful" things being yelled. Can you point out which statements you meant? What exactly is your definition of hateful? If you are personally a staffer of or one of the 5 million members of the NRA, I guess I could see how you find Oliver's rhetoric harsh... but hateful? And if you're not, why do you take personal offense on the NRA's behalf?

tropo 10y ago

Here is an analogy that might help you understand how the other side is feeling about your "rational gun control" ideas: http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-compromise-illustrated-guide-to-gun-control/ http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-comprom... What can you offer them, other than a smaller piece of what is left of the cake? It's not compromise if you don't offer anything.

maxerickson 10y ago
Of course it has been a compromise. Effective gun control means something like no private pistol ownership and tightly limited ownership of long guns with small internal magazines. I mean, this is a political non goal, not nearly enough people agree with it, but let's not pretend that rules about pistol grips on rifles mean anything. It would still be quite interesting to have a referendum on a constitutional amendment that provided clear legal powers for such restrictions. Not because I particularly think it would succeed, just to see the numbers.
- tropo 10y ago
  Heh. No really... what would you give up? Compromise means you have to provide something to the other side. I hope you looked at the link I posted. Suggestion: fixing gun rights to be like driving rights, recognized in every state, so that driving from New Hampshire to Texas with a gun isn't a felony. (imagine if you needed a separate driver's license for each state) Suggestion: allow mufflers on firearms to help prevent hearing loss. We allow mufflers on cars. Suggestion: where carry is allowed, it may be concealed, and non-concealed is never worse than a fine. Got any ideas? Remember, it has to be something the gun owners would actually like. Without giving something up, you aren't making a compromise. You're just taking more of the cake.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    No where is it written that the path forward must be compromise. My argument is that a healthy society would choose to let people have a tictac rather than arguing about cake. The taking away the cake is just a rhetorical framing device to make the argument about taking something away rather than about what is reasonable for society as it exists today. You say I hope you looked at the link I posted. but apparently didn't pay much attention to where I conceded that it is not politically plausible to move to a strict gun control regime in the US (and I readily concede that steps less than a strict gun control regime will not be especially effective in reducing gun violence). I think the first step towards a better situation with guns in the US is to convince people to stop owning them using means other than the law. Then I don't have to compromise with them anymore to get stronger laws.