8 ms·

In reading this, I see that there will no longer be any groups that are allowed to remain in the US based on prosecutor discretion (eg: Dreamers, kids/babies wh

by trome 10y ago

In reading this, I see that there will no longer be any groups that are allowed to remain in the US based on prosecutor discretion (eg: Dreamers, kids/babies who were raised here will be deported), 10,000 more officers will be hired, and they plan to deputize more local police departments to deport people without Customs & Border Protection involvement. About the only major screwup here for effective mass deportations is the Trump administration is hiring too few people to round up these people. Back in the 1940s when we were rounding up Japanese to send to concentration camps, it took way more manpower to effectively round up that population to send them to squalid, disease filled camps we sent them to, and there weren't 6 million to be rounded up either. Hopefully this will get more Americans politically active at the very least, as when the food is rotting in the fields due to a lack of farm hands, that is when we will see something similar to what is happening with Obamacare and Republican voters right now.

Shihan 10y ago
So, illegals are cheap slaves who work at the farms?
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  People who work hard for money are 'slaves' now? No, slaves are people in chains, like the ones we're 'rounding up' to send back.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Slaves have often received pay, it's defined by deminished legal rights not nessisarily income.
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    "Working hard" isn't inherently valuable. I really don't get this protestant obsession. "I know we pay you peanuts, but at least you get to work hard."
- feld 10y ago
  They are cheap labor everywhere, the backbone of this country. When Latinos went on strike (illegal and legal) in Wisconsin to send a message to Walker every restaurant in Madison was shutdown and the farmers were panicking because nobody was there to milk the cows, and that's very bad for the cows. The ideal result here would probably be to streamline the path to citizenship, make it significantly cheaper, and get these people paying taxes as soon as possible.
  - severine 10y ago
    > get these people paying taxes as soon as possible I think that's a mistaken assumption. Undocumented immigrants pay far more in taxes than they get back: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocum...
    - rbcgerard 10y ago
      As someone in the country illegally, why would they be entitled to get anything back? If per chance you meant they are net contributors to the "system" that is unsupported by your citation
      - throwayawnotime 10y ago
        I think you should set up an angry-squaw club with the other trolls here ;-)
      - jorgeleo 10y ago
        Because otherwise is legalized stealing. Pay money, but don't get the benefits of what that money buys?
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    Yes--they are cheap labor. In the 70's, how did America function without the cheap labor? It used to be when a guy needed a job, their was always a low skills job for the taking, or they could go into business for themselfs. You could start up start up a landscaping businesses. Those jobs are just gone. A lot could go into construction, and make a decent living. Those construction jobs, including slightly technical jobs, like Telecommunication Workers, mostly pay minimum wage. Bradley Electric gets people to commute to San Francisco, work eight hour days, use their own tools, all for minimum wage. (My dad did his apprentabntenship with the owner, if still alive. The owner was taught, and paid very well by local 6. He then decided to open a non-Union shop, and pay minimum wage. He, and his family lived like a king. What I am saying is there used to be a plethora of chit jobs, jobs that people could pick and choose from. Jobs perfect for teens, low skilled, guys whom had nervous breakdowns, and the like. And people--who just wanted a simple mindless job. Some Americans didn't want the high pressure career, they just wanted a job. When you have people whom come to this country and don't care about wages, or working conditions; you get this economy. You get employers who don't give raises. You get employers who go onto business knowing they will always have a cheap pool of labor that won't ask for much. My sister started her shoe business on paying less than minimum wage. She's a muli-millionaire now, but only started to pay her employees minimum wage a few years ago. The Latinos are all living together, and pool their income. My sister lives like Ivanka Trump. I get hammered for this post, but employers have taken advantage of this cheap labor. My rich neighbors have taken advantage of this cheap labor. How will we ever see wage growth if there's always someone their to do the job cheaper? I don't by that jobs will go unfilled if some of the illegial cheap labor goes home. Employers might need make their jobs a bit more enticing, or lower that profit margin a bit?
- trome 10y ago
  Pretty much, most of the workers rights gains made by Cesar Chavez have been rolled back, hence why workers are forced to shit in the fields (due to a lack of places to do the needful), thus causing e coli and other outbreaks. Same thing has happened in the meat packing industry, worker protections have been gutted, and conditions there are similar to those described in The Jungle, a book which helped cause that industry to unionize and fight for safe & sanitary working conditions. Up in Canada, they straight up import workers for low end jobs, hence why at Tim Hortons up north, you will rarely if ever see a native Canadian, its nearly entirely Asians, cause they are there on worker visas. The Canadian Govt has decided their workforce should be doing something better than making coffee or baking donuts, which isn't the worst idea when properly implemented.
thraway2016 10y ago
> Hopefully this will get more Americans politically active at the very least FWIW, many of us became politically active for the first time in our lives specifically because of the candidacy of DJT and the promises he made to deal with this issue. A couple questions for HN, that I've yet to see answered without appeal to emotion: 1. By what moral principle do noncitizens have the right to reside in a sovereign country? 2. What is so morally outrageous about a sovereign country choosing to reduce its non-citizen : citizen ratio?
- literallycancer 10y ago
  By what moral principle are citizens valued more than non-citizens?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - thraway2016 10y ago
    There are many answers to this question, that have been rehashed elsewhere. Everything from citizens having more vested interest (skin in the game) in the future of their lands than noncitizens, to the protection of shared cultural heritage, to social cohesion borne of cultural integration and higher-trust societies, etc. But I'm genuinely interested in answers to my questions devoid of appeal to emotion, not deflection to other questions.
    - literallycancer 10y ago
      > Everything from citizens having more vested interest (skin in the game) in the future of their lands than noncitizens An illegal immigrant from a poor country sells everything, and by a stroke of luck is successful in coming to the US. Then they spend some time there (say 15 years). Surely they have more to lose than a legal qualified immigrant (now a citizen) that spent some 8 years jumping through the hoops? The qualified immigrant could just pick a country at random and have reasonable chance of starting over, while the minimum wage illegal can't do the same (and so has to hope the country doesn't crap itself). >protection of shared cultural heritage How much cultural heritage does a white protestant factory worker share with an illegal Chinese immigrant? Is it more or less than they share with legal Chinese programmer who had recently been granted a citizenship?
makomk 10y ago
If I'm reading this correctly, some memos allowing certain groups to remain in the US based on prosecutorial discretion - in particular, the policy of allowing those who came to the country as children to remain - are explicitly left standing.
- adiabatty 10y ago
  That's my reading, too. From the top of page 2: > With the exception of the June 15, 2012, memorandum entitled "Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion with Respect to Individuals Who Came to the United States as Children," and the November 20, 2014 memorandum entitled "Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion with Respect to Individuals Who Came to the United States as Children and with Respect to Certain Individuals Who Are the Parents of U.S. Citizens or Permanent Residents," all existing conflicting directives, memoranda, or field guidance regarding the enforcement ofour immigration laws and priorities for removal are hereby immediately rescinded. That's a fairly large exception.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
...when the food is rotting in the fields due to a lack of farm hands, that is when we will see something similar to what is happening with Obamacare and Republican voters right now. Wait, I'm confused. I thought there wasn't enough work for everyone, and we needed Basic Income/welfare/etc so that people wouldn't starve. I didn't realize the situation changed, and now we have a shortage of labor and desperately need people to do work or else people will starve. Now that the situation has reversed, I guess we should end the welfare state and just redirect unemployed/etc people into these agricultural jobs?
- someguydave 10y ago
  > shortage of labor and desperately need people to do work or else people will starve. Yeah also don't forget the eternal shortage of programmers and engineers.

by trome 10y ago

Shihan 10y ago

So, illegals are cheap slaves who work at the farms?

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
People who work hard for money are 'slaves' now? No, slaves are people in chains, like the ones we're 'rounding up' to send back.
- Retric 10y ago
  Slaves have often received pay, it's defined by deminished legal rights not nessisarily income.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  "Working hard" isn't inherently valuable. I really don't get this protestant obsession. "I know we pay you peanuts, but at least you get to work hard."
feld 10y ago
They are cheap labor everywhere, the backbone of this country. When Latinos went on strike (illegal and legal) in Wisconsin to send a message to Walker every restaurant in Madison was shutdown and the farmers were panicking because nobody was there to milk the cows, and that's very bad for the cows. The ideal result here would probably be to streamline the path to citizenship, make it significantly cheaper, and get these people paying taxes as soon as possible.
- severine 10y ago
  > get these people paying taxes as soon as possible I think that's a mistaken assumption. Undocumented immigrants pay far more in taxes than they get back: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocum...
  - rbcgerard 10y ago
    As someone in the country illegally, why would they be entitled to get anything back? If per chance you meant they are net contributors to the "system" that is unsupported by your citation
    - throwayawnotime 10y ago
      I think you should set up an angry-squaw club with the other trolls here ;-)
    - jorgeleo 10y ago
      Because otherwise is legalized stealing. Pay money, but don't get the benefits of what that money buys?
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  Yes--they are cheap labor. In the 70's, how did America function without the cheap labor? It used to be when a guy needed a job, their was always a low skills job for the taking, or they could go into business for themselfs. You could start up start up a landscaping businesses. Those jobs are just gone. A lot could go into construction, and make a decent living. Those construction jobs, including slightly technical jobs, like Telecommunication Workers, mostly pay minimum wage. Bradley Electric gets people to commute to San Francisco, work eight hour days, use their own tools, all for minimum wage. (My dad did his apprentabntenship with the owner, if still alive. The owner was taught, and paid very well by local 6. He then decided to open a non-Union shop, and pay minimum wage. He, and his family lived like a king. What I am saying is there used to be a plethora of chit jobs, jobs that people could pick and choose from. Jobs perfect for teens, low skilled, guys whom had nervous breakdowns, and the like. And people--who just wanted a simple mindless job. Some Americans didn't want the high pressure career, they just wanted a job. When you have people whom come to this country and don't care about wages, or working conditions; you get this economy. You get employers who don't give raises. You get employers who go onto business knowing they will always have a cheap pool of labor that won't ask for much. My sister started her shoe business on paying less than minimum wage. She's a muli-millionaire now, but only started to pay her employees minimum wage a few years ago. The Latinos are all living together, and pool their income. My sister lives like Ivanka Trump. I get hammered for this post, but employers have taken advantage of this cheap labor. My rich neighbors have taken advantage of this cheap labor. How will we ever see wage growth if there's always someone their to do the job cheaper? I don't by that jobs will go unfilled if some of the illegial cheap labor goes home. Employers might need make their jobs a bit more enticing, or lower that profit margin a bit?
trome 10y ago
Pretty much, most of the workers rights gains made by Cesar Chavez have been rolled back, hence why workers are forced to shit in the fields (due to a lack of places to do the needful), thus causing e coli and other outbreaks. Same thing has happened in the meat packing industry, worker protections have been gutted, and conditions there are similar to those described in The Jungle, a book which helped cause that industry to unionize and fight for safe & sanitary working conditions. Up in Canada, they straight up import workers for low end jobs, hence why at Tim Hortons up north, you will rarely if ever see a native Canadian, its nearly entirely Asians, cause they are there on worker visas. The Canadian Govt has decided their workforce should be doing something better than making coffee or baking donuts, which isn't the worst idea when properly implemented.

thraway2016 10y ago

> Hopefully this will get more Americans politically active at the very least FWIW, many of us became politically active for the first time in our lives specifically because of the candidacy of DJT and the promises he made to deal with this issue. A couple questions for HN, that I've yet to see answered without appeal to emotion: 1. By what moral principle do noncitizens have the right to reside in a sovereign country? 2. What is so morally outrageous about a sovereign country choosing to reduce its non-citizen : citizen ratio?

literallycancer 10y ago
By what moral principle are citizens valued more than non-citizens?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- thraway2016 10y ago
  There are many answers to this question, that have been rehashed elsewhere. Everything from citizens having more vested interest (skin in the game) in the future of their lands than noncitizens, to the protection of shared cultural heritage, to social cohesion borne of cultural integration and higher-trust societies, etc. But I'm genuinely interested in answers to my questions devoid of appeal to emotion, not deflection to other questions.
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    > Everything from citizens having more vested interest (skin in the game) in the future of their lands than noncitizens An illegal immigrant from a poor country sells everything, and by a stroke of luck is successful in coming to the US. Then they spend some time there (say 15 years). Surely they have more to lose than a legal qualified immigrant (now a citizen) that spent some 8 years jumping through the hoops? The qualified immigrant could just pick a country at random and have reasonable chance of starting over, while the minimum wage illegal can't do the same (and so has to hope the country doesn't crap itself). >protection of shared cultural heritage How much cultural heritage does a white protestant factory worker share with an illegal Chinese immigrant? Is it more or less than they share with legal Chinese programmer who had recently been granted a citizenship?

makomk 10y ago

If I'm reading this correctly, some memos allowing certain groups to remain in the US based on prosecutorial discretion - in particular, the policy of allowing those who came to the country as children to remain - are explicitly left standing.

adiabatty 10y ago
That's my reading, too. From the top of page 2: > With the exception of the June 15, 2012, memorandum entitled "Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion with Respect to Individuals Who Came to the United States as Children," and the November 20, 2014 memorandum entitled "Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion with Respect to Individuals Who Came to the United States as Children and with Respect to Certain Individuals Who Are the Parents of U.S. Citizens or Permanent Residents," all existing conflicting directives, memoranda, or field guidance regarding the enforcement ofour immigration laws and priorities for removal are hereby immediately rescinded. That's a fairly large exception.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

...when the food is rotting in the fields due to a lack of farm hands, that is when we will see something similar to what is happening with Obamacare and Republican voters right now. Wait, I'm confused. I thought there wasn't enough work for everyone, and we needed Basic Income/welfare/etc so that people wouldn't starve. I didn't realize the situation changed, and now we have a shortage of labor and desperately need people to do work or else people will starve. Now that the situation has reversed, I guess we should end the welfare state and just redirect unemployed/etc people into these agricultural jobs?

someguydave 10y ago
> shortage of labor and desperately need people to do work or else people will starve. Yeah also don't forget the eternal shortage of programmers and engineers.