23 ms·

US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile

• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• everythingspun 10y ago
  This happened under Obama.
  • muzz 10y ago
    It happened in December. What is the relevance of who was President at the time?
    • gydfi 10y ago
      Nothing. Unless of course it happened under Trump.
    • JumpCrisscross 10y ago
      At least in New York, there are many Democrats campaigning on an anti-Trump platform. They use stories like this to justify their candidacy. Recognising that they did nothing about these issues is informative for primary coördination and voting.
      • grzm 10y ago
        What's your take on the story?
        • JumpCrisscross 10y ago
          It shows a hole in our rule of law. There's a case in front of SCOTUS, Hernández vs. Mesa, exploring the Constitutional protection of foreign nationals at the U.S. border [1]. In 2010, an unarmed fifteen-year-old Mexican boy was shot in the head by a U.S. Border Patrol agent. The boy was in a culvert jointly patrolled by the U.S. and Mexico, but officially, the agent was in the United States and the boy in Mexico. This more proximate story profiles a single U.S. Customers and Border Protection agent traversing the personal and sensitive data of a minority (by sexual orientation) citizen of a friendly nation. The agent wields sole and arbitrary power to detain, question, seize and arrest. And he does so with impunity. (Our government declined to prosecute Jesus Mesa, Jr., from Hernández vs. Mesa, despite him having made up claims of the victim throwing rocks at him, later disproven.) We're on Hacker News, so instead of depressed drivel I'll suggest a solution. We need legal insurance for the U.S. border crossing. Get extrajudicially harassed by a numpty? Your monthly fee covers a competent lawyer. (Maybe use the AirHelp model [2]--you only pay if they succeed.) We also need rapid data exfiltration and reintroduction techniques. Wiping my iPhone and Mac, traversing the border, and then hoping my Internet on the other side is fast (and secure) enough to reload my apps and data within a day isn't reasonable. [1] http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Cross-border-shooting-petition.pdf http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Cross-b... [2] https://www.airhelp.com/en/ https://www.airhelp.com/en/
          • caf 10y ago
            What I don't understand in the Hernández case is why Mesa apparently hasn't been investigated/charged by the Mexican authorities?
            • mike_o 10y ago
              He has. The US refused to extradite him.
          • deleted 10y ago
            [deleted]
          • stuaxo 10y ago
            The monthly fee thing sounds a bit much for visitors. If there is a way to quickly get the data back on they can ask the password for that service or refuse you entry.
          • dTal 10y ago
            So we pay numpties to harass people, and then pay lawyers to harass the numpties for doing their jobs? I'll give you credit, it's a very American solution.
    • confounded 10y ago
      Because there are good indications that it's going to get a lot worse.
    • WayneBro 10y ago
      The faces change, but the game stays the same. That's the salient point here IMO. Why is that? Who is behind it?
      • everythingspun 10y ago
        The DHS under the direction of the President. Are you suggesting that the US needs looser border controls and screening?
        • fictioncircle 10y ago
          It needs more competent screening. Good luck getting that when all they do is grab low hanging fruit from publicly available social media. Anyone who is truly a problem will use a burner and spend 10 minutes creating fake social media accounts that are harmless.
        • kalleboo 10y ago
          The US has very inconsistent border controls and screening. On one hand, people arriving from wealthy countries at airports get hassled, on the other hand, there isn't any exit border control (I hear that's changing). So they don't even know who left or not. Sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants exist. Employers don't need to verify identity. None of it is really coherent.
          • jessriedel 10y ago
            > there isn't any exit border control There is, but it's done electronically by monitoring passenger records. It's very difficult to exit the US without creating a paper trail, which is vacuum up, so the DHS definitely has info (albeit noisy) when aliens don't leave. https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-US-not-have-immigration-control-while-departing https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-US-not-have-immigration-c... One reason not to interview people when they are leaving is philosophical, or slippery slope, depending on your political persuasion. Exit restrictions are obviously very disturbing, being classic precursors to fascism/dictatorships, and generally immoral. (Yes, there are cases where people commit crimes or otherwise shirk duties and the state has a justification for preventing their departure, but these are relatively rare.)
    • jessriedel 10y ago
      The President has significant influence on how border security is conducted, as evidenced by the recent effect of Trump's executive order which has been covered extensively in the news. Many/most readers will associate this event with Trump. Incidentally, how do we know when this event happened? The photo is labeled December, but its essentially a stock photo.
      • mattm 10y ago
        It says in the article: "he was going through Customs preclearance at Vancouver airport last October"
        • jessriedel 10y ago
          Thanks! I ctrl-f'ed for Dec through Feb :)
• confounded 10y ago
  There needs to be some reasonable way to get your digital life into an E2E encrypted cloud, wipe your devices, fly into the police state you call home, and get setup again when you land. You can promise at the border that your head doesn't contain anything either. I get very worried about traveling with an object as alien and shiny as a Yubikey. I don't know how I'd explain it to an aneurism in a Kevlar vest without triggering them with words like "encryption".
  • coin 10y ago
    > wipe your devices But then you risk: > They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’
    • pmiller2 10y ago
      That and the bit about the bill that would increase CBP's power to detain and strip search Canadians entering the US were the two most troubling things in the article, IMO.
      • confounded 10y ago
        Why Canadians?
        • mahyarm 10y ago
          It's the pre-screen areas are inside Canadian airports, on Canadian lands. Anything the us border cops can do there, they do so with the permission of the Canadian government.
          • aanm1988 10y ago
            Which really, should be whatever they need to do. The twist being at any point you should say "No, I'm staying in Canada" and they should say okay bye.
• rasengan0 10y ago
  How much does privacy cost? More stories like this read like a reason for a privacy startup as policy is not changing anytime soon... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/eric-schmidt/10076175/Eric-Schmidt-interview-You-have-to-fight-for-your-privacy-or-you-will-lose-it.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/eric-schmidt/10076175/... 4 yrs ago? “You have to fight for your privacy, or you will lose it,” Schmidt insists.
• peteretep 10y ago
  > US Customs officers didn’t even > need to ask for his passwords — > they were saved in their own > system I don't want to victim-blame here, but COME ON. You're going to delete a bunch of info from your phone, but you're not going to change your passwords after having given them over?
  • maerF0x0 10y ago
    While we're victim blaming. His new "clean" phone had nudes of him on it.
    • Jonnax 10y ago
      It wasn't the phone. Because his phone was clean, they took his laptop.
• tomlock 10y ago
  This sounds incredibly embarassing, and even as a US citizen makes me fear travelling to America.
  • brynx97 10y ago
    The best way to approach any and all of this is to be prepared. Go into the checkpoints with all your items properly separated to efficiently take stuff out, put them into the bins, and then pick them up. NYT recently did a piece of this I liked, which reported that 0.0012% of arrivals had electronic devices inspected in 2015 [1]. Also, EFF has regular blogs or new stories published on border crossing privacy issues, which this post triggered me to check for updates [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/business/border-enforcement-airport-phones.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/business/border-enforceme... [2] https://www.eff.org/issues/border-searches https://www.eff.org/issues/border-searches
• icefo 10y ago
  That's sad. I really want visit the US and see some national parks but the more I see stories like that the less I want to go. I hope it will be better in 5-6 years because I don't want to invent a plausible second life just to go through the border...
  • mc32 10y ago
    This occurred in October, under Obama, so even if the dems were to win next cycle, there is little hope for the change you seem to be going for.
    • TillE 10y ago
      "The Dems" as represented by Obama/Clinton are essentially a dead party. Some kind of radical change is going to happen, or they'll wither into nothing. They're not going to win in 2020 on Obama policies.
  • deepGem 10y ago
    You are not alone. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/travel/after-travel-ban-declining-interest-trips-to-united-states.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/travel/after-travel-ban-d...
• lacampbell 10y ago
  I'd love to visit the United States, but this is just creepy. I don't even give my family passwords. Not worth visiting on my own dime if I'll just be turned back for refusing to comply.
  • vogt 10y ago
    I've recently relocated to Washington state and am close to the Canadian border. I thought about driving a few hours to check out the sights in BC and satisfy a many years long Tim Horton's drought this weekend (I'm originally from New England where we had Tim's for a brief shining moment in time), but decided against it after reading a plethora of instances online where Canadian authorities have done the same to people at the border. I figure if I don't get the runaround on the way in, I'll get it on the way back. Sad, but not worth the trouble.
    • aanm1988 10y ago
      I've found the Canadian guards meaner, and I'm a Canadian citizen.
      • vogt 10y ago
        On either side, the worst part is, I don't have anything to hide. I just don't want anyone digging through my personal messages or photos etc just because they can. I'm not a criminal, nor do I have any criminal history, I pay my taxes and all that other good stuff you check off a list when you go on a rant like this. Someday maybe I'll have a reason to fly in. For the interim, I remain maple dip-less.
    • hluska 10y ago
      If you're interested, I'd be glad to ship you tins of Tim Hortons' coffee. I don't think I could ship donuts, but I could fill your coffee pots...my email is in my profile!!
  • refurb 10y ago
    I'd avoid traveling to Canada as well.[1][2] [1]https://www.cnet.com/news/man-charged-for-refusing-to-give-up-phone-passcode-to-canadian-border-agents/ https://www.cnet.com/news/man-charged-for-refusing-to-give-u... [2]http://www.macleans.ca/culture/crossing-the-line/ http://www.macleans.ca/culture/crossing-the-line/
• bbcbasic 10y ago
  Is the workaround just to take the dumb phone on holiday. No laptop, just rent one on arrival. Everything in the cloud, encrypted.
• throwrapgod3480 10y ago
  For travel: - Travel with wiped devices with a cloud backup. - Restore from backup when you reach your destination. - You could be compelled to give up your cloud login, (since you'll have to know the password in your head) so have a fake one available for plausible deniability. - Your (real) backup needs: browser, password safe, system patches, system hardening. Anything else should likely be delegated to installing from a script, Ansible, etc, after the fact. This helps minimize history and other private information you could carry around (just in case they DO get your real login). - Not sure if necessary, as I haven't heard stories by border agents to give up email passwords, but an extra email address for plausible deniability can't hurt. - All (other) passwords should be stored in a password safe, so you can't be compelled to give them those passwords, since you have no idea what they are anyway. - Passwords should always be generated and be as long as possible for a particular service. - Usernames should always be generated and unique. - Don't use services that restrict password lengths to 20 or less characters. - Don't use services with a known history of hacks or leaks (i'm looking at you Yahoo/Target). All that said, it's pretty terrible that joe user will need to know this information just to travel. I doubt many are technically capable of executing on the above strategies. Even software engineers are unlikely to have such due diligence.
• Mikeb85 10y ago
  In the US right now visiting, am Canadian. Was a pain, was held up over an hour at the border (via land). Apparently they don't believe there's any reason for a Canadian to visit the US as a tourist, we only want to work illegally (they're partially right, only came to visit family, our national parks are nicer). Also, based on my family members' experiences of working in the US, it's easier to work illegally than to immigrate legally. And hard to be a tourist apparently. You guys have your priorities all backwards - should be easy to visit, hard to work illegally, and somewhere in the middle to immigrate legally.
  • tn13 10y ago
    US has denied my 70 year old parents visa to visit me because they think they intend to work or stay in USA when my own visa expires in few months!
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • mc32 10y ago
    That's how most countries are. For the most part the US is the exception for industrialized countries in that it's easy to work illegally because the gov does not enforce verification very hard and does not penalize employers often. I know countries I've been to, even if you could avoid interacting with authorities, there's no way to get other gov services while not having proper visas --ie, education, housing assistance, etc.
    • smsm42 10y ago
      US has very strong political opposition to denying services to illegal immigrants in many states. Given how many there are, in is understandable - if you have 10 million population, you can not just deny them all healthcare or access to housing. That'd create tons of problems. It could be done if tightening the rules is combined with finding solution for having so many illegal immigrants, one way or another (in various combinations). But political stances in US are such that making comprehensive solution is very hard, the trust between parties almost nonexistent, the desire to cooperate is very low, and the entrenched positions are incompatible and only cover part of the possible solution, which can not work without other parts.
• devoply 10y ago
  No phone. No password. No electronic device. No problem.
  • KKKKkkkk1 10y ago
    Suspicious foreigner. Back you go.
    • devoply 10y ago
      They usually have to construct a narrative of suspicion. I don't know how not having electronic devices or a phone is suspicious.
      • chinathrow 10y ago
        In the article, even a clean phone is suspicious. "No phone? Are you hidding something?"
        • devoply 10y ago
          A cleaned out phone is suspicious. Are you hiding something? Nope I have nothing to hide, but I still don't have a phone on me sir. This guy in the ended up with a history. That's where his problems began, after that you are fucked no matter what you do unless you play it very very clean.
          • onion2k 10y ago
            The border authority knows who you are (from your passport). They can use that information to check everything - phone records, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, your purchase history, your credit references, etc. They don't have to simply accept you don't have any devices - they already know what devices you have and what you use them for. The only thing they don't have is direct access to your actual data. That's why they want your password. If you claim not to have a phone with you they simply won't let you in because you're not being open enough. This is the modern world we live in. Decades of pervasive privacy intrusion by governments illegally sucking up all the data of foreign and domestic citizens has done this. It's hard to see any way back.
• sneak 10y ago
  I get detained and harassed at every single border crossing into the US, and I am a citizen—simply for having on several occasions many years ago asserted my 5th amendment rights at the border. Non-US people traveling with me have been denied entry after being sent to secondary for refusing to unlock their devices (the only reason they were sent to secondary and the unlock demand made was because they were traveling with me, a known fifth-amendment-user). US CBP are total scumbags. I've had lower level CBP insult the country in which I live, unbidden, in response to my plain, unadorned factual responses to questioning about where I live and what I do there, in what appeared to be self-reassurance about the USA's number one status. Both me and a female partner have had our genitals groped as punitive response to our refusals to unlock our phones. The sooner we can drive this issue to a head and get all these pigs out on the street looking for new jobs, the better.
  • cryoshon 10y ago
    >The sooner we can drive this issue to a head and get all these pigs out on the street looking for new jobs, the better. hear hear.
• KKKKkkkk1 10y ago
  The Bill of Rights says that the government is not allowed to conduct unreasonable search and seizure. This applies to all people, not just to US citizens. Unfortunately, when you are a noncitizen at at a port of entry, the Bill of Rights is effectively a dead letter.
  • mistermann 10y ago
    That goes for citizens within <x> miles of the border as well does it not?
    • fictioncircle 10y ago
      Yes, at a border checkpoint run by CBP. They don't get to like go to your house and "investigate".
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
• fulafel 10y ago
  Argh, you couldn't invent this kafkaesque stuff: "When he went through secondary inspection at Vancouver airport, US Customs officers didn’t even need to ask for his passwords — they were saved in their own system." "They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’ and that was it. I wasn’t let through. " -- I know that US/Canada privacy laws might not give people protection in this situations, but what about universal human rights? UN Declaration of Human Rights and other binding international agreements recognize the right to privacy.
  • chinathrow 10y ago
    Since when does the US give a damn thing about the UN declaration?
    • struppi 10y ago
      They signed it.
      • techdragon 10y ago
        Signatory, Ratified, Implemented. These and other words making up the jargon of diplomacy mean very different things. For example: UNCLOS - "Although the United States helped shape the Convention and its subsequent revisions, and though it signed the 1994 Agreement on Implementation, it has not signed the Convention as it objected to Part XI of the Convention." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_... UN Convention on the Rights of the Child: "The United States government played an active role in the drafting of the Convention and signed it on 16 February 1995, but has not ratified it" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_th... Basel Convention: "Haiti and the United States have signed the Convention but not ratified it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Convention
        • chinathrow 10y ago
• NamTaf 10y ago
  Over the last few years I've gone from wanting to visit the US and planning it as one of the next few holidays I'd like to do, to wanting to visit the US but holding off until 'later', to now simply not wanting to visit due to these sort of policies and actions at the border. It's a shame; US citizens are generally lovely people, the US natural environment is beautiful and, hell, the US makes killer craft beers that I'd love to drink my way through. However, there's enough other destinations around the world to keep me busy so that I don't have to possibly subject myself to this sort of treatment, and therefore I'll visit them instead.
  • te_chris 10y ago
    Go to NZ. Natural wonder of the world and the craft beer is killer. You'll thank me.
    • handedness 10y ago
      With a little effort I'm sure his righteous indignation will have no difficulty finding a reason not to visit NZ, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload_legal_case#Arrests_in_New_Zealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload_legal_case#Arrests_... That kind of thinking is dangerous, though, in all forms: equating people with their governments is the beginning of the end, in all directions.
    • NamTaf 10y ago
      Being on the east coast of AU, I'm well aware and love visiting it. :) You're absolutely right, more people should visit NZ! Also, Garage Project do phenomenal work. Love their stuff.
    • superfad 10y ago
      They will be asking for passwords in NZ too before too long by the sound of it. https://nzccl.org.nz/content/customs-able-demand-unlockpasswords-border https://nzccl.org.nz/content/customs-able-demand-unlockpassw... Plus there is what happened to Sam Blackman http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11171475 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti...
• kennywinker 10y ago
  Everyone proposing clever technical solutions. Burner phones and encrypted cloud data etc... you are solving the wrong problem. Instead of engineering a way for the few people who care deeply to avoid this at great effort, engineer a way for this to not be legal. Write your congressperson, donate time and money to political parties, make privacy at the border for ALL (not just citizens) a priority in every election.
  • struppi 10y ago
    This! Also, clever technical solutions won't help when not having any data is seen as suspicious. Like, you cannot tell them "I don't know my passowrds. They are in a password safe, and I do not have access right now". When the law says you have to hand over your passwords, "I don't know them right now" is probably not a valid excuse anyway.
    • SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
      Do you have any basis for your last point? I legitimately don't know many of my passwords, there's no legal obligation to know them, and the law generally cant compel you to do impossible things (eg, tell them something you don't know). They can subpoena my password safe, just like any other file on my computer, and possibly require I unlock it (this is disputed), but I don't see any reason they can demand I reproduce the contents of the safe that I don't know.
      • nickff 10y ago
        If you say you can't remember your password, they can't force you to remember, but they can tell you to go home. When you're a foreigner attempting to enter the USA, they can simply deny you entry for failing to do what they want. US CBP has the authority to make arbitrary decisions not to admit foreigners, and CBP faces almost no scrutiny. Most other countries give their border guards similar authority with respect to foreigners not entitled to enter by some treaty (e.g. EU).
      • Uehreka 10y ago
• pasbesoin 10y ago
  Remember when they needed access to our electronic devices only in "very limited cases" and then only "because terrorism"? These "officials" are destroying their own credibility.
• bnj 10y ago
  US Customs is sad that it missed a chance to start it's own version of facebook and now wants to recoup their opportunity by strongly encouraging everyone to sign up when they travel.
• dbg31415 10y ago
  Here's what I want: A way to hit a button and have the contents of my laptop or phone encrypted locally, shipped off to some secure cloud storage, and then purged from my laptop. I'll take the empty device through. I can just tell them that it's a gift for a friend, or something work asked me to bring over to a co-worker. Then when I'm on the other side, I hit the button... download, decrypt, and restore my stuff -- then wipe it from the cloud. Anyone who makes this service, I'll gladly pay you $100 per use. (Dear BackBlaze... I know you're close, just build out the UX and automation a bit better.) It sucks, but I guess I'll just take an old phone and tell them I'm planning on getting a SIM card when I land... I only really need it for finding my way around anyway. I can FedEx my laptop and have it waiting for me. But what a pain in the ass all of this is.
  • hd4 10y ago
    I find it more surprising that such a thing hasn't been done yet, or is too painful using existing tools. But you've definitely inspired me to give it a try.
  • smsm42 10y ago
    What would be the purpose of having it? Getting entry to US denied because "you are clearly hiding something, you used highly-sophisticated technology to deny US government agents access to your information"? Even if they don't see you doing it and find no evidence of it - they can say having only one completely empty phone is suspicious. For used laptop, even more suspicious. In fact, that's exactly what they did in the article. Only way it won't be suspicious if virtually everybody did it - but that's not going to happen. Moreover, if you tell them anything but the truth about the device and how it ended up empty, you've just committed a felony and if they ever find out about it by any means, they have grounds to deny you entry forever. They probably also have grounds to prosecute you but that never happens, entry ban though does happen.
  • fortytw2 10y ago
    this doesn't help at all - in this scenario, if a gov't body wants you data, they lock you up in some room and beat you until you give them all of the passwords to the encrypted data...
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• xroche 10y ago
  Beyond the obvious privacy issue, there is a more general worrying pattern here. The fact we give mediocre, frustrated, under-waged people, some power, with minimum control. This is not a condescending remark, and I truly think the root of all these incidents (and this also include other abuse of power) lies here. Think of sadistic guards in prison, think of police officers coldly killing black teens. These all are patterns where mediocre and frustrated people have finally a chance to get a revenge on their meaningless life by using the only relevant element they have: their power.
  • yestoallthat 10y ago
    I'd say that goes all the way to the top, and "get a revenge on their meaningless life by using the only relevant element they have: their power" holds true right to the zenith of current power structures. Which is not to disagree, or to take away from the fact that in the end, there's rarely abusers who aren't also victims. Just beating on them, whether poor goons or rich goons, doesn't help. Nor does just pleading. Respectfully establishing boundaries does, but that requires cooperation of all the environment.
• megous 10y ago
  I guess this does it for me. America might be interesting to me as a tourist, but the idea that some schmuck on the border would turn me back for some ridiculous reason, humiliating me in the process, all that while erasing a significant portion of my life savings... (because they charge the airlines some ridiculous fine which would in turn try to force it down on me) blah. Not worth the risk at all.
• system16 10y ago
  After many unpleasant dealings with US Customs, I avoid flying to or through the US completely even if it costs me more. The last time I flew from Canada to Singapore through the US, the US Customs officer - on Canadian soil - was hostile, asked me numerous questions about my travel, itinerary, who I was intending to meet, and my personal finances. When I questioned if all this was necessary as I'm not even traveling to the US, he became agitated and threatened "You know I could stop your trip right here? I might not be convinced you'll actually transfer on your next flight or leave the US." After scowling at his screen for a while, he finally scoffed, slammed my passport on the counter and said "Go." I guess he felt he had shown his power enough. It was extremely stressful and humiliating, and I vowed never to subject myself to it again. FWIW, I'm a caucasian, middle-class Canadian IT nerd. I can only imagine what others who meet their "profile" go through.
  • bruceb 10y ago
    This is part of the problem, not the questions but the attitude. I can understand them asking questions, they have a short time to figure out if the traveler might be "up to no good". That is no reason to ask questions in way that attacks a person. Ask all the questions you want just don't be terrorizing jerk about it. Now one instance can be chalked up to a bad apple but over and over again I have heard stories like this and experienced on multiple occasions. Canadian customs officers may ask questions but they are generally not in a abusive tone.
    • KineticLensman 10y ago
      > Canadian customs officers may ask questions but they are generally not in a abusive tone. Brit here, anecdata. I once entered Canada for business reasons and (long story short) my employer hadn't given me the correct visa paperwork. The Canadian border guys let me leave the airport and gave me 24 hours to come back with the correct paperwork (and threatened arrest if I didn't return). It was stressful but the guards were professional and relatively courteous. The guy I spoke to the next day basically said "we get this all the time, we know it's your company and not you".
    • tempestn 10y ago
• RileyJames 10y ago
  For online accounts (ignoring devices that you can physically access) what happens when the account is in your name, but you do not have access to it? Ie: Hugh Jackman has an Instagram account, but it may be run by his PR team. He doesn't hold the password to it, and depending on the contract terms, may have no capacity to order his PR firm to provide it. Non-celebrities could start structuring their online identities in a similar manner, as separate legal entities that afford them (as an individual entity) limited rights. The border guards could still reject your entry tho.
  • tempestn 10y ago
    > The border guards could still reject your entry tho. And that's the problem. Any steps you go to to make your data more secure are just going to make it more likely.
• kalleboo 10y ago
  The U.S. is the only country I've visited where immigration asked me a trick question. Not the kind of mental gymnastics you want to be doing after a 14 hour flight. I'm lucky I caught it.
  • robteix 10y ago
    I'm curious, what was the question?
    • twelvedogs 10y ago
      aterroristsayswhat?
    • kalleboo 10y ago
      "When was the last time you entered the country? <I answer> And that was the time you went over the land border? <no, I flew in that time>"
  • cancancan 10y ago
    Indeed, what was the question? "Does your mother know you're a terrorist?" or something more subtle? :)
• inlined 10y ago
  > US Customs officers didn’t even need to ask for his passwords — they were saved in their own system This is also horrifying. So there's a government database of plaintext passwords and a massive body of people have legitimate access?
  • piotrkaminski 10y ago
    OTOH, not changing all your passwords after having to divulge them under duress is pretty careless, too.
    • tempestn 10y ago
      True, but it'd be especially painful if you use a password manager. Presumably they're going to demand the master password, so you're left changing everything. If you were dealing with a reasonable system, a compromise might be to unlock the accounts for them (without them seeing the password) and allow them to review the contents in your presence. That way you know exactly what they've seen, and that they're not holding onto anything, but they should still be able to do any necessary screening. Unfortunately the system appears to be weighted rather more toward maximum intimidation than reasonableness.
      • literallycancer 10y ago
        >True, but it'd be especially painful if you use a password manager. Presumably they're going to demand the master password, so you're left changing everything. So you have to change everything + the master password, that is 1 more than you would have to change, had you not used it. Without a password manager, you could just give them the passwords they wanted, if you remember 20+ different random passwords. Otherwise you are reusing your passwords and so have to change most of them anyway. >If you were dealing with a reasonable system That this could seriously be described as "reasonable" shows just how much things went wrong.
        • tempestn 10y ago
          I use a password manager and certainly wouldn't stop because of this, but no, without one you only have to change the passwords you give them. That would be a handful of passwords to SM accounts and such. If I give them my master password I have to change ALL my passwords. I have several hundred passwords stored. And yes, I agree that having to show border guards your facebook account isn't ideal. It's a hell of a lot more reasonable than just giving them all your passwords and having them run rampant through your digital life without your even knowing what they've done or seen though.
• abootstrapper 10y ago
  The way we treat travelers at our borders is how we can expect to be treated at their borders.
  • tempestn 10y ago
    And indeed, treatment on entry into Canada can be similarly ludicrous.
• sand500 10y ago
  Is a new thing? Is everyone trying to enter the country now suddenly getting all their electronic profiles and devices searched? I don't remember this being a problem a couple years ago.
  • OliverJones 10y ago
    No, it is not a new thing. The US immigration police have behaved like this for decades now. My dad was a US Foreign Service officer. I remember, vaguely, waiting for over an hour in 1962 at Idlewild Airport (now called JFK) in New York while the passport control people questioned him about our passports. They were slightly different from ordinary passports because they said "US diplomatic passport" in the usual gold leaf on the cover, and they were a different color. The staff there, I suppose, didn't recognize them and thought they were fake. They held us until some supervisor told them to let us go. Is the ignorance and arrogance of US passport control staff worse now? Probably. Are other countries getting worse? Yes. That's a standard diplomatic technique, dating from the cold war, called "tit-for-tat." If country A gives country B's nationals a hard time, country B does the same to country A. I don't have twitter, FB, or linkedIn accounts. But I suppose they'll find me here on HN.
• FusilliGary 10y ago
  Can we acknowledge that this specific event happened last October, before Trump was elected? I am 100% not a Trump supporter, but the article is definitely trying to have people infer that it has to do with Trump's travel ban when it does not.
  • lexicality 10y ago
    No it isn't?
  • briandear 10y ago
    Correct -- there have also been a lot of disingenuous stories about record numbers of overseas Americans renouncing citizenship.. yet that trend began due to FATCA which was passed by Democrats in 2010. The renunciations started to spike once the impact of that law was felt by overseas Americans and so-called 'accidental' Americans (automatic Americans at birth but no connection to the US.) There are a lot of these stories that are suddenly making the mainstream press -- the stories themselves are true, but the "why write this now" aspect is clearly an attempt to imply that these issues are Trump inspired when they have been anything but. And example of this are all of the deportion stories -- the Obama admin had fairly aggressive deportation enforcement, but they didn't inspire protests because Obama isn't Trump. Even the framing of the stories is suspect: "Muslim Ban" for example -- yet 85% of the world's Muslims were unaffected and not a single religion was named in the text of the executive order. Don't misunderstand -- I don't support national origin bans either, but the media framing is definitely designed not to inform people -- but to provoke. The fact that this story is appearing now when the incident happened 5 months ago is extremely suspect -- it fits a crafted narrative that Trump is anti-gay or whatever he's supposedly 'anti' this week.
    • vinay427 10y ago
      It isn't a national origin ban if it only covers Muslim-majority countries with a priority process for religious minorities: > "to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality." I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's a ban on Muslims, but it strategically bans (arbitrary groups of) Muslims. Also, if we're going to talk about portrayals, it's worth reminding readers that the countries on the list (Trump signed it, not Obama) have not historically been sources of terrorists.
• Canada 10y ago
  I'm always nervous entering the US and Canada. My declarations are always proper, and I carry nothing I'd be upset to have searched. The feeling is just anchored. I get searched a lot and then let go. Waste of time for all concerned. I hate the airport security checkpoints too. I'm worried something of mine will be stolen if I get separated from it. For anyone else who feels this way, a good tip for US travel is to opt-out of those body scanners. It will take you a bit of extra time to get through, but the TSA will get your stuff from the xray and put it in a separate area, and they will always put on new gloves before touching it. They do this not out of basic respect but because they're going to test their gloves for explosives or something, but I'll take what I can get.
  • sergers 10y ago
    I am Canadian born citizen who does most of work remotely with US companies. A couple times a year I have to go-to US. I am only traveling g for work, carrying nothing illegal and never done anything illegal in the US... Yet I get anxiety the US border agents are going to hassle me. By the time I get up to US customs preclearance I am nervous and the agent thinks I am on something. This leads to more questioning. However by the end my nerves have calmed and I make it through every time. I just say I hate to fly, and going through customs thinking they out to get me. Usually CBP officer will say I should find another profession, or there is medication that can help. -- 5 years ago on a personal trip shopping with the wife in the US via car, we came back to Canada without buying anything in 3 hours cause I got in a argument with my wife. Canadian border pulled us inside. They couldn't believe I didn't buy anything and I must be doing something nefarious. Agents questioned my wife if she knew my whereabouts the whole trip... Asked her how well she knew me They took my wallet and wiped down every surface, card, with the agent telling me to speak up now cause the machine is going to tell them. 5 minutes later the agent comes back and throws my wallet on the table and tells us we can leave. I avoid traveling cause it's a hassle, and stressful just going through customs borders, mainly now only travel on work trips when I have to.
• consentist 10y ago
  Destroy all Governments. Embrace Consentism. This shit is going to continue and get-worse unless. https://richclarke.liberty.me/consentism/ https://richclarke.liberty.me/consentism/
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• blazespin 10y ago
  Do we even know if this true? Seems improbable to me.
  • justonepost 10y ago
    Agreed. Perfect fake news / click bait. Notice the part where he doesn't give a name.
  • arm 10y ago
    Doesn’t seem very improbable to me, considering that this kind of thing isn’t exactly new. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13092330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13092330
• danm07 10y ago
  I'm Canadian running a company in California, and every time I cross the border, I get pulled into the office for an hour. There was one time last year where I got detained for 8 because they didn't believe that a college dropout could run a company, even calling me "full of shit" at one point. They had my computer and went through my email one by one asking me to cite specific dates of employment at 3am in the morning. They ultimately rejected me on the basis that I got one of the dates wrong. Can't say I've ever had a good experience with any US customs official.
  • mdekkers 10y ago
    Why run a company in California?
    • zerr 10y ago
      Not sure about the OPs case, but usually it is when you care about investors' money more than the company/product.
      • cfabbro 10y ago
        Apropos that you're saying that on a social media platform run by a Venture Capital company out of Mountain View but your statement is a pretty damn cynical view of it. California may the epicenter of tech related VC but it's also the startup and tech company capital for plenty of other reasons besides VC such as the amazing local culture, awesome weather, friendly legal environment (e.g. CA's strong anti-SLAPP laws), experienced local hiring pool, state & municipal tax benefits, etc.
    • danm07 10y ago
      We were in the online-video space, which made sense to be based in LA. Our investor was also based in California, which made sense to leverage his network there to raise subsequent rounds of funding.
  • rtpg 10y ago
    what does this even accomplish? Are there quotas for rejecting people? The only reasonable explanation apart from quotas I can come up with is that they want to harass people.
• ommunist 10y ago
  Well, the obvious solution is to hire more people from gay community to CBP.
  • gspetr 10y ago
    Suppose the next time you're a painter bringing in a painting of yours into the country. Next thing you know they are accusing you of smuggling. Is the solution to hire people with background in arts?
    • ommunist 10y ago
      This actually happened to me when I brought my wife's paintings from London to Russia 3 years ago.
    • ommunist 10y ago
      Answering your question. You know, I worked as CITES expert on customs back 15 or 16 years. No sane customs officer can distinguish between crocodile skins. This is why there was (and still is) institution of advisors.
      • gspetr 10y ago
        Thank you for a thoughtful answer.
• dvcrn 10y ago
  As a engineer, I was quite curious to visit the US and maybe even consider it as a destination for working, but that was before I knew all the things that are going on there like problems with visas, racism (police shooting people without any repercussions), internet privacy, gun control and, yes, the border control. Currently, I have absolutely no intention of even flying through the US. The only reason I could imagine doing it is if I were to have a onsite interview at some companies headquarters; or if I through some miracle get tickets for I/O or WWDC. That would be about it. And if I get a ticket, I would now have to think about a plan how I could keep my data safe while still taking my phone/laptop with me. It's a shame really. (Unrelated side story: I am a frequent traveller and invested good money into a nice robust trunk. I usually have the PIN lock on it with the normal TSA key thing for them to open it. I took it to a dozen countries and never had any problems, but at the first time through the US it got directly broken open (despite TSA lock), my stuff left in a messy state and I got the usual paper notice about a TSA inspection. Now I can't close the trunk correctly anymore and will probably have to buy a new one. Booh.)
  • DINKDINK 10y ago
    >racism (police shooting people without any repercussions) US police have always been shooting/killing citizens (mainly political out groups) without repercussions. The difference now is that documentation of such acts is easily accessible for large portions of the population and the information is extraordinarily easy to be decimated.
• makach 10y ago
  Excellent article! on a completely different note: I chuckled when I saw that it comes from a gay website with the directed advertisement that is typically associated with this life style! I wonder what kind of advertisement will be directed at me as a consequence of reading this article^^
• stuaxo 10y ago
  For a while now, I've not wanted to go through the US border as it seems like there is a collective madness taken hold. This confirms things further. It's a shame, I'd like to visit some places in the US. Even though my email is full of mundane things, I'm really uncomfortable with giving the password to some unaccountable bureaucrat. There's also the weirdly puritanical aspect, they were obsessed with the idea he was a sex worker and blocked him for that reason.
• kkleindev 10y ago
  What has been the initial motivation for this procedure? Just gathering the data and rejecting people not willing to give in or actually looking for red flags justifying the denial of entry? If the latter applies, what does the set of red flags look like? I assume the given example in the article is not part of the initial motivation but rather consequence of misbehaviour of the guard.
• rendall 10y ago
  What is "looking for loads"?
  • throwanem 10y ago
    Nothing to do with sex work; it's a rather vulgar way of expressing a preference for the receptive role.
• smdz 10y ago
  My first (and last) visit to the US (6-7 years back), at the port of entry: ...Before the US trip, I was tired from 2 other trips and had very little sleep. Please note the words below may not be exact, but representational... Officer: some questions... Me: some answers.... Officer: "Are you carrying any banned substances?" Me: "No, just regular stuff" Officer: "Is it banned?" Me: (confused) "No" [At this point I was perplexed at why she was asking this question. I was carrying two packets of packaged food items - was it banned? I didn't know] Officer - doing something on the computer Me - Just waiting(standing) Officer: "Sir, how long are you going to stay?" Me: "My work will be done in 2 weeks" ..pause.. I realized they would stamp an exit date... "But this is my first trip to the US. I would like to have a couple of weeks extra so that I can visit some places around and meet up an old friend" Officer: "So you don't know how long you are going to stay" Me: "I didn't say that" Officer: "First you said 2 weeks, and now you are saying a few more" Me: "Sorry for the confusion. I'd like to stay for a month, my official work would be done in first 2 weeks" Officer: "You just don't know how long you are going to stay" Me: [Didn't say anything, but kept thinking - Is she annoyed, or not too bright, or did I say something wrong?....] Me: (waiting) ... I recalled a particular question on application form - "Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization?" And some similar questions on that form that I would consider stupid questions. Me: (giggled)... Officer: "What?" Me: "Nothing" (still smiling) Officer: "What's so funny?" Me: "Nothing important, I recalled a stupid question on the visa application..." and then I told her the question and continued "...Why would any terrorist check that box?" Officer: (blank face), got back to her computer and after some time: "Please come with me" She took me to a room where I was waiting for 40 minutes. Then another officer came and let me go saying they had to check my bags. When I asked "What was wrong", he said "Nothing". I just wanted to leave and crash at the hotel. Once I travelled the US, I felt that the security situation was so lax within (I may be wrong). That is why the port of entry becomes such an important barrier. While returning back from US, via Amsterdam - the Amsterdam authorities questioned me as if I was travelling from some seriously-troubled-war-torn country. Might have been a one-off incident After that trip which was more stressful and a bit frustrating - I kept refusing any other trips to the US. And the situation seems to be a lot more worse now.
• reacharavindh 10y ago
  This is just outrageous. So not having the identifiable social accounts that the customs officer knows will go against someone getting into the country? No Facebook, No Twitter, No Scruff, No popular networks. What do I do? Write a bot that posts non political stuff to social profiles created just to please these guys? Great times we live. Too much freedom in the land of the brave! Ironically, sharing this article on social media would also be considered a red flag I suppose.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• coldcode 10y ago
  Do not visit the US under any circumstances, especially now. Until our tourism companies like Disney feel the pain and start losing massive amounts of money nothing will change. You can talk to your Senators until you are blue in the face and it won't change squat. But some rich company pissed off at losing money who will not give the Senator money any more will be listened to. Money moves politicians, regular people are unlikely to.
• lstroud 10y ago
  When will people understand that the internet has been legally deemed public. What you say will be in the public and won't go away. You have a right to say what you want, but don't expect people to ignore your words.
• ajeet_dhaliwal 10y ago
  This is the power of momentum and the snowball effect of capitalism and economic success. If the US was a poor country this would hardly be newsworthy, everyone would just laugh in the face of such a policy and never visit. Now they may be shooting themselves in the foot getting heavy handed like this but even if it is the beginning of the end it would take decades for them to bleed out and in the meantime for most people doing business and interacting with the US is hard to avoid.
• cryoshon 10y ago
  technical solution: "clean personal data images as a service" wherein you start an app which creates a new partition, encrypts your old partition, then hides it until you explicitly decide to unhide it. the new partition is populated with apps from the cloud and contains already-logged in fake/clean social media profiles, which are set up automatically for you when you sign up for the service. the clean profiles are connected to other profiles from the same service, allowing for a randomized network of people to stand in for your friends. because you may be questioned about your friends, you're given a secret code (a picture, color, or symbol in the fake friend's picture) and a secret narrative based off of that code (how you know them, what they are like, etc). the software arranges your networks ahead of time so that someone else's profile will corroborate your narrative about them. you act compliant and give your passwords to the new partition and the fake social media accounts to the pigs, who are easily fooled by the appearance of reality and your ability to explain the people in your network. the pigs feel good, and you're out the door. once you're out, reactivate the old partition and wipe the fake one. the premium edition makes fake social media posts for you every once in a while so it's even less suspicious. social solution: don't visit the US, and tell other people not to visit. political solution: destroy the surveillance state / police state by enshrining new rights for the digital age. this won't happen.
• thegayngler 10y ago
  The only ones these people are hurting are the travel and airline industry. That means less jobs all the way around.
• LordKano 10y ago
  I have been putting a lot of thought into this because I'm going to be traveling out of and then back into the country later this year. I'm seriously considering taking an otherwise pristine device with me and wiping it before I get back to customs. It's not so much that I have anything to hide, it's the principle of the thing.
• ohstopitu 10y ago
  I've always wanted to visit the US. I grew up in India and UAE and viewed US as the ultimate place to be. It was my lifelong dream to get a job and settle in the US (and have an American way of life). The more time goes by, the more the US is moving away from that pedestal I had put it on.(privacy is getting eroded, cops are killing people, the govt. does not trust it's own citizens etc. - and no it's got nothing to do with Trump, this was happening before Trump too - doubt if he'll make it better). Even now, US still has a lot of ideals I consider dear, but man, they are making it hard for me to even visit the country (wanted to have an all-over-US driving trip when I get my car - but I doubt if that's happening considering recent news)
  • TACIXAT 10y ago
    Don't let the doomsayers dissuade you. Life is still very good here. Violent crime is near record lows. The air is much cleaner in cities than it used to be. You can find amazing salaries. We are making progress on social issues with same-sex marriage being a legal right. I have the ability to move anywhere in the world and, all things considered, I'm staying in the US. It is not without it's problems, as you mention, privacy and a militarized police force are high on the list, but also keep in mind the positives. I think they still outweigh the negatives by a lot.
• finid 10y ago
  If visiting the US becomes such a big hassle, have your friend visit you instead. If that happens enough, the tourism industry takes a hit. If this country does not want you to come and spend money here, go spend it somewhere else.
• hawski 10y ago
  Honest question: How US border controls compare to China border controls? Edit: worded it better.
  • xachen 10y ago
    Of the 25-30 times I have entered China, only once was I asked a question and it was "Are you here on business?". They are exceedingly polite... Granted it may be because you have to receive a visa prior and the application is pretty extensive. On other hand, being Canadian I have been grilled several times at both Canadian and US immigration.
• turc1656 10y ago
  "A non-American who is asked to hand over their devices and passwords is faced with the dilemma of protecting their privacy or potentially being denied entry to the US." Odds are that if DHS or CBP agents ask any non-citizen for the ability to search their devices that person isn't getting let into the country no matter what and the agents are just looking for evidence to validate whatever suspicion they have. This guy was selected for secondary inspection. Now I'm not sure if that selection was random or if it was pre-determined for when he showed up at the airport. If it was pre-determined and he was flagged for inspection, there's very little chance he's getting through at all. If it was random and he declined to give them the passwords to search his devices, the agents might have no choice but to allow him through since there is no cause for suspicion. I'm not really sure what the law is in this regard or the DHS/CBP policies. That being said, in almost any scenario it seems the best course of action is not to comply because you think that if you do they are going to let you in. The best course of action is almost always to refuse to give your passwords. Let's also not forget that the article says they kept the passwords for future use! That's bad enough by itself. I have no idea why this guy didn't treat his accounts, passwords, and device as compromised and take appropriate action. That was dumb on his part. As soon as a government agent gets their hands on an unlocked device, inserts anything into a port, or the device leaves your sight while in their possession it should be considered compromised. No exceptions. While I do acknowledge and support the US retaining the right to deny anyone access to their country, which is a right of all sovereign nations - it really leaves a bad taste when they don't reimburse travelers for their flights when they are either denied entrance or were allowed entrance but missed the flight due to abnormal detainment times. That can get really tricky, though, because then you face issues like having to reimburse people who are denied entrance for very valid reasons. I'm not sure how to fix that problem, but it's definitely an issue.
• mcguire 10y ago
  One wonders what would happen if Canada (and other countries) started treating US visitors the same way?
• rdiddly 10y ago
  Being a suspicious undesirable outlaw terrorist used to take a lot of work. Now all it takes is NOT doing social media and NOT storing crap on your phone. Is it that rare? They both seem like good things not to do. All the more so now that petty bureaucrats are so keen to look at it.
• parasubvert 10y ago
  The NEXUS trusted traveller program (a similar overlapping program called Global Entry exists for US citizens) has been great for this. It provides both border agencies time to check your background thoroughly and then conduct an interview without the pressure of immediate travel. Border hassles drop significantly (as do security wait times and screening procedures as it enrolled you into TSA preCheck). Doesn't help the privacy angle, but nothing about international travel has been private for a long time.
• frenchman_in_ny 10y ago
  Serious question: What would happen if -- at your point of origin -- you asked a friend to set the passcode on your phone, and you would only get the passcode on arrival after clearing border/customs? CBP can ask you to unlock your phone, but without knowing the passcode, what can they (or you) do?
  • kaspiCZ 10y ago
    They will most likely detain you. And grill you for quite some time. Then seize your electronics, because "you have no need for devices you cannot unlock" (fictional quote) and most importantly you cannot prove they're safe (forget about them having to prove they're not safe). And finally, they would most likely deny you entry. Given that lately I've read hundreds of comments on US Customs here on HN, this is the picture I've painted in my mind.
• eecc 10y ago
  No. Seriously no. This is not acceptable and cannot be justified any way. Mobile devices contain so much information that any search through them is just a fishing expedition. Just no
• ensignavenger 10y ago
  From the article: André says. “He came back and just started grilling me. ‘Is this your email?’ and it was an email attached to a Craigslist account for sex ads. He asked me, ‘Is this your account on Scruff? Is this you on BBRT?’ I was like, ‘Yes, this is me.’” I am no fan of CBP, but the guy apparently admitted to placing sex ads on Craiglist. The article doesn't state what the ads said... but depending on their content, it may be reasonable to suspect him of prostitution... an argument could be made that it shouldn't matter, and I don't think CBP should be demanding passwords like this, but the denial may not have been so absurd as the article would like you to think.