8 ms·

> Instead of the tipping option appearing on the checkout page as it originally had, a default 10 percent “service fee” sat in its place. If I could take a gue

> Instead of the tipping option appearing on the checkout page as it originally had, a default 10 percent “service fee” sat in its place. If I could take a guess, I'd say this is more related to the user experience. I hate tipping. I'd rather just attach a 10-20% fee instead of needlessly evaluating someone else's performance with every delivery. Or better yet, I'd rather just use a company that adequately pays its own employees instead of attempting to offload a portion of that cost on its customers.

emodendroket 10y ago
Except the money goes in a different bucket than the tips did even though it's the same amount. And both the "service fee" and tip are adjustable.
dawnerd 10y ago
I feel like even if they paid their delivery people a reasonable wage they'd still expect tips. Ive had movers that made over 50/hour not including the cost of materials/truck/etc ask for a tip. I was all for Uber being tip free until drivers started driving for Lyft which does tips in-app, and now all the drivers expect it. I've always felt this way with Pizza. Most places charge a delivery fee. That itself should be the tip. If it costs more to deliver a pizza then work it into the price.
- mikeash 10y ago
  The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. Unfortunately, I don't think tipping culture is going away any time soon.
  - zachsnow 10y ago
    There's a restaurant in my neighborhood that does this (no tips, built into the price) and I really appreciate it. It's so much "easier" that I'm more inclined to drop in.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    The worst part for me - places here in NZ are trying to introduce it. I've solved it by not going back, that that doesn't work if the practice spreads.
    - Negitivefrags 10y ago
      I also live in NZ. I've seen a few places prompt for tips but typically only in areas tourists frequent. I always just tip nothing. I'm pretty sure they are just doing it to bait Americans.
      - navs 10y ago
        Curious, I live in Auckland and haven't seen mention of tips except in 'hipster' cafes and I rarely see gold coins or notes. I wonder if it's less about baiting Americans and more about emulating Americans.
        lostlogin 10y ago
        Non solo pizza in Parnell do a hard sell on the tip. Very much a tourist location as mentioned above.
    - gedrap 10y ago
      I live in Lithuania and random places are trying to introduce it, such as news agent type of convenience store. "A pack of cigarettes and here's your tip", em, no.
  - woogiewonka 10y ago
    Living in Japan, love the fact that I don't have to tip anywhere!
  - amykhar 10y ago
    I believe Amazon did this with Amazon Fresh. The tip option in the app went away, and when I asked the delivery person, he said their pay had been increased and they were good. No tip required. He said it with a smile on his face, but who knows if he was really dying inside.
  - SilasX 10y ago
    >The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. That's basically what Uber did (except for "you have to refuse once"). They tried to make it a tip-not-required zone and make everyone understand this going in. And yet still, you hear the refrain, "What, I'm basically a cabbie. Don't you tip cabbies? Shouldn't I be getting tips?"[2] [3] Even the media coverage comes with that implicit assumption. To paraphrase: "under the ruling, Uber drivers can solicit tips -- you know, like cabbies, duh".[1] It's like people think that tipping cabbies is some fundamental invariant of reality rather than a default custom that can be overridden by explicit agreement. [2] My uncle still thinks I'm a bad person because I didn't visibly tip the Lyft driver. "No, it's through the app" 'sure, sure...'. [1] warning: browser-abusive site even with blockers: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/tipping-is-coming-to-uber-and-it-s-going-to-be-awkward https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/tipping-i... [2] Characteristic example: https://www.quora.com/Should-you-tip-your-Uber-or-Lyft-driver/answer/Don-Anderson-6 https://www.quora.com/Should-you-tip-your-Uber-or-Lyft-drive... [3] And in fairness, a lot of what drives the attitude is that the pay dropped so low that it effectively only works as a tipped job
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I imagine the "contractor" status of Uber drivers gets in the way. If they'd bite the bullet and hire drivers as proper employees, a prohibition on taking tips might stick.
- Stasis5001 10y ago
  With pizza, your solution can't work. You have to pay the driver base pay, and they get tips on top. So the base pay has to come from the menu price + delivery fee, and if you get rid of the delivery fee, it has to come from the menu price. But if you raise that, you're distorting demand by making in-restaurant purchases more expensive.
  - Sacho 10y ago
    Arent in-restaurant purchases more expensive for the business, considering they need to rent space and employ waiters? A large percentage of the pizza restaurants that deliver here offer a discount for online purchases, so tgey have essentially done what you describe.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Pizza places in the UK typically give a discount for collection from the shop, which presumably accounts for the delivery cost. It's not expected to tip a delivery person, though some people do.
- eridius 10y ago
  Just to be clear, for pizza places that charge a delivery fee, most of the time that does not go to the driver. You should still tip your driver.
  - b3lvedere 10y ago
    Which is the problem in the first place. Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? Because the first group has a very low income. That's why. Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't. That's why. I don't mind to tip when someone has done an excellent service, but i always try to make sure my tip goes to that person directly and not some weird strange thing like a jar or a fund the corporation came up with.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      > Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? > Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. No, it's noblesse oblige: I am well off, and therefor it is my duty to show my appreciation to those who perform services for me.
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        Don't neglect that you get a little bit of affirmation from it. I am the powerful money holder here, you are the person relying on charity from me to make the rent. Maybe I'll even make you dance a little for it. Really helps cement the power relationship and emphasise the class differences.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > Because the first group has a very low income That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. That group doesn't have much to offer, and often didn't work hard to offer anything society valued. I knew, from an early age, that the consequence of not trying at school was ending up in a dead-end job. > Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't Citation needed - their work is hard because they have little leverage. Some have the deck stacked against them, fair enough, but that first group exists in places with less opportunity inequality, and far more welfare than in the US. Many people spend most of their lives on their careers, trying to improve their worth to society, and offer things deemed valuable. Few go into accounting for the love of it, but because society desires accountants. EDIT: there are exceptions. Temporary jobs held by students, people from impoverished backgrounds, or who were never motivated to succeed, low-skilled immigrants that fall into these last two categories. These are exceptional, sympathetic situations (except students, their condition is temporary), but society should seek to reduce these groups, rather than normalise them by developing some kind of coping mechanism. Welfare is a good safety net for all citizens, but low-paid work is too. The problem is groups who are stuck in ow-paid work with little opportunity to escape; in those cases it's not "greedy" corporations to do anything - it's exclusively the governments role to participate in any social engineering efforts.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
x1798DE 10y ago
> Or better yet, I'd rather just use a company that adequately pays its own employees instead of attempting to offload a portion of that cost on its customers. I also really dislike tipping, but in reality it's not the cost they are offloading onto customers (all the cost is paid by the customers, since costs are paid out of revenues, which come from customers), but rather they are offloading compensation decisions onto customers - since the difference between a tip and having the cost of service built into the price is that you can decide the amount of the tip.
- x2f10 10y ago
  Semantics. There are industries where the employees are paid less than minimum wage as anticipated tips are factored into their overall compensation. If the tips do not meet the minimum wage threshold, the business is responsible for the difference. In this case, the costs (wages) are being offloaded by tips. Not to mention the industries that pay low wages as the tips subsidize a living wage. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
  - aanm1988 10y ago
    > Semantics I don't think it is. I really don't like being involved in figuring out how much someone should be paid.
    - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
      That's precisely the issue with tipping culture.
tptacek 10y ago
That's because you're doing it wrong. Don't evaluate their performance. Consider the tip a "variable buyer price-sensitivity upcharge". You're comfortable paying 20%. Me too. So: just always pay 20%, without thinking about it. That's in fact the actual economic purpose of the tip anyways. People think it's to encourage good service, but in fact, in jobs where you can make significant money tipping, there's already competition for slots. And, either way, insurance of good service is the job of the business owner. Any way you slice it, a tip is simply a cost sharing mechanism. Amazon Prime Now and Grubhub both ask you to "tip" their drivers before they even do the run. You can't possibly be asked to evaluate performance in those cases. I'm fine with that, too! I'm not sensitive to the amount of money we're talking about, but across all their jobs, those tips probably make a pretty significant difference. What's not OK is transforming a "tip" to a "service charge" that is then split with other elements of the business.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > variable buyer price-sensitivity Just go to cheaper places if you are 'price-sensitive'. Arguing 'there's already competition' doesn't make sense, it isn't a binary thing. Are you arguing that if you can afford to pay more, you should? Isn't that socialism? This isn't how capitalism is supposed to work.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    No, in fact, market segmentation by price sensitivity is a pretty basic mechanism of applied capitalism, taught to basically everyone who has ever taken a marketing class in business school.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      'if you can afford to pay more, you should' is not 'market segmentation'.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        No, it very much is. See, for instance, all airline pricing, which is almost shrink-wrapped around the meta-itinerary of a typical business trip. That's not "socialism". It's ruthless capitalism.
aanm1988 10y ago
> I'd rather just attach a 10-20% fee instead of needlessly evaluating someone else's performance with every delivery. When seattle raised the minimum wage a bunch of places started doing exactly that. I like it better. A few places started adding on fees that go to back of house employees as well, which I'm fine with. Apparently this didn't annoy people the way they wanted, so they just started adding in an extra fees because of the minimum wage. I wish they would just raise their prices and pay people properly.

emodendroket 10y ago

Except the money goes in a different bucket than the tips did even though it's the same amount. And both the "service fee" and tip are adjustable.

dawnerd 10y ago

I feel like even if they paid their delivery people a reasonable wage they'd still expect tips. Ive had movers that made over 50/hour not including the cost of materials/truck/etc ask for a tip. I was all for Uber being tip free until drivers started driving for Lyft which does tips in-app, and now all the drivers expect it. I've always felt this way with Pizza. Most places charge a delivery fee. That itself should be the tip. If it costs more to deliver a pizza then work it into the price.

mikeash 10y ago
The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. Unfortunately, I don't think tipping culture is going away any time soon.
- zachsnow 10y ago
  There's a restaurant in my neighborhood that does this (no tips, built into the price) and I really appreciate it. It's so much "easier" that I'm more inclined to drop in.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  The worst part for me - places here in NZ are trying to introduce it. I've solved it by not going back, that that doesn't work if the practice spreads.
  - Negitivefrags 10y ago
    I also live in NZ. I've seen a few places prompt for tips but typically only in areas tourists frequent. I always just tip nothing. I'm pretty sure they are just doing it to bait Americans.
    - navs 10y ago
      Curious, I live in Auckland and haven't seen mention of tips except in 'hipster' cafes and I rarely see gold coins or notes. I wonder if it's less about baiting Americans and more about emulating Americans.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        Non solo pizza in Parnell do a hard sell on the tip. Very much a tourist location as mentioned above.
  - gedrap 10y ago
    I live in Lithuania and random places are trying to introduce it, such as news agent type of convenience store. "A pack of cigarettes and here's your tip", em, no.
- woogiewonka 10y ago
  Living in Japan, love the fact that I don't have to tip anywhere!
- amykhar 10y ago
  I believe Amazon did this with Amazon Fresh. The tip option in the app went away, and when I asked the delivery person, he said their pay had been increased and they were good. No tip required. He said it with a smile on his face, but who knows if he was really dying inside.
- SilasX 10y ago
  >The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. That's basically what Uber did (except for "you have to refuse once"). They tried to make it a tip-not-required zone and make everyone understand this going in. And yet still, you hear the refrain, "What, I'm basically a cabbie. Don't you tip cabbies? Shouldn't I be getting tips?"[2] [3] Even the media coverage comes with that implicit assumption. To paraphrase: "under the ruling, Uber drivers can solicit tips -- you know, like cabbies, duh".[1] It's like people think that tipping cabbies is some fundamental invariant of reality rather than a default custom that can be overridden by explicit agreement. [2] My uncle still thinks I'm a bad person because I didn't visibly tip the Lyft driver. "No, it's through the app" 'sure, sure...'. [1] warning: browser-abusive site even with blockers: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/tipping-is-coming-to-uber-and-it-s-going-to-be-awkward https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/tipping-i... [2] Characteristic example: https://www.quora.com/Should-you-tip-your-Uber-or-Lyft-driver/answer/Don-Anderson-6 https://www.quora.com/Should-you-tip-your-Uber-or-Lyft-drive... [3] And in fairness, a lot of what drives the attitude is that the pay dropped so low that it effectively only works as a tipped job
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I imagine the "contractor" status of Uber drivers gets in the way. If they'd bite the bullet and hire drivers as proper employees, a prohibition on taking tips might stick.
Stasis5001 10y ago
With pizza, your solution can't work. You have to pay the driver base pay, and they get tips on top. So the base pay has to come from the menu price + delivery fee, and if you get rid of the delivery fee, it has to come from the menu price. But if you raise that, you're distorting demand by making in-restaurant purchases more expensive.
- Sacho 10y ago
  Arent in-restaurant purchases more expensive for the business, considering they need to rent space and employ waiters? A large percentage of the pizza restaurants that deliver here offer a discount for online purchases, so tgey have essentially done what you describe.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Pizza places in the UK typically give a discount for collection from the shop, which presumably accounts for the delivery cost. It's not expected to tip a delivery person, though some people do.
eridius 10y ago
Just to be clear, for pizza places that charge a delivery fee, most of the time that does not go to the driver. You should still tip your driver.
- b3lvedere 10y ago
  Which is the problem in the first place. Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? Because the first group has a very low income. That's why. Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't. That's why. I don't mind to tip when someone has done an excellent service, but i always try to make sure my tip goes to that person directly and not some weird strange thing like a jar or a fund the corporation came up with.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? > Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. No, it's noblesse oblige: I am well off, and therefor it is my duty to show my appreciation to those who perform services for me.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      Don't neglect that you get a little bit of affirmation from it. I am the powerful money holder here, you are the person relying on charity from me to make the rent. Maybe I'll even make you dance a little for it. Really helps cement the power relationship and emphasise the class differences.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > Because the first group has a very low income That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. That group doesn't have much to offer, and often didn't work hard to offer anything society valued. I knew, from an early age, that the consequence of not trying at school was ending up in a dead-end job. > Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't Citation needed - their work is hard because they have little leverage. Some have the deck stacked against them, fair enough, but that first group exists in places with less opportunity inequality, and far more welfare than in the US. Many people spend most of their lives on their careers, trying to improve their worth to society, and offer things deemed valuable. Few go into accounting for the love of it, but because society desires accountants. EDIT: there are exceptions. Temporary jobs held by students, people from impoverished backgrounds, or who were never motivated to succeed, low-skilled immigrants that fall into these last two categories. These are exceptional, sympathetic situations (except students, their condition is temporary), but society should seek to reduce these groups, rather than normalise them by developing some kind of coping mechanism. Welfare is a good safety net for all citizens, but low-paid work is too. The problem is groups who are stuck in ow-paid work with little opportunity to escape; in those cases it's not "greedy" corporations to do anything - it's exclusively the governments role to participate in any social engineering efforts.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

x1798DE 10y ago

> Or better yet, I'd rather just use a company that adequately pays its own employees instead of attempting to offload a portion of that cost on its customers. I also really dislike tipping, but in reality it's not the cost they are offloading onto customers (all the cost is paid by the customers, since costs are paid out of revenues, which come from customers), but rather they are offloading compensation decisions onto customers - since the difference between a tip and having the cost of service built into the price is that you can decide the amount of the tip.

x2f10 10y ago
Semantics. There are industries where the employees are paid less than minimum wage as anticipated tips are factored into their overall compensation. If the tips do not meet the minimum wage threshold, the business is responsible for the difference. In this case, the costs (wages) are being offloaded by tips. Not to mention the industries that pay low wages as the tips subsidize a living wage. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
- aanm1988 10y ago
  > Semantics I don't think it is. I really don't like being involved in figuring out how much someone should be paid.
  - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    That's precisely the issue with tipping culture.

tptacek 10y ago

That's because you're doing it wrong. Don't evaluate their performance. Consider the tip a "variable buyer price-sensitivity upcharge". You're comfortable paying 20%. Me too. So: just always pay 20%, without thinking about it. That's in fact the actual economic purpose of the tip anyways. People think it's to encourage good service, but in fact, in jobs where you can make significant money tipping, there's already competition for slots. And, either way, insurance of good service is the job of the business owner. Any way you slice it, a tip is simply a cost sharing mechanism. Amazon Prime Now and Grubhub both ask you to "tip" their drivers before they even do the run. You can't possibly be asked to evaluate performance in those cases. I'm fine with that, too! I'm not sensitive to the amount of money we're talking about, but across all their jobs, those tips probably make a pretty significant difference. What's not OK is transforming a "tip" to a "service charge" that is then split with other elements of the business.

Chris2048 10y ago
> variable buyer price-sensitivity Just go to cheaper places if you are 'price-sensitive'. Arguing 'there's already competition' doesn't make sense, it isn't a binary thing. Are you arguing that if you can afford to pay more, you should? Isn't that socialism? This isn't how capitalism is supposed to work.
- tptacek 10y ago
  No, in fact, market segmentation by price sensitivity is a pretty basic mechanism of applied capitalism, taught to basically everyone who has ever taken a marketing class in business school.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    'if you can afford to pay more, you should' is not 'market segmentation'.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      No, it very much is. See, for instance, all airline pricing, which is almost shrink-wrapped around the meta-itinerary of a typical business trip. That's not "socialism". It's ruthless capitalism.

aanm1988 10y ago

> I'd rather just attach a 10-20% fee instead of needlessly evaluating someone else's performance with every delivery. When seattle raised the minimum wage a bunch of places started doing exactly that. I like it better. A few places started adding on fees that go to back of house employees as well, which I'm fine with. Apparently this didn't annoy people the way they wanted, so they just started adding in an extra fees because of the minimum wage. I wish they would just raise their prices and pay people properly.