7 ms·

The idea of "open source" is also unique, I can't think of any other professions that have something analogous.

by choxi 10y ago

CJefferson 10y ago
No, closed source is I think the more unique thing. I can go to planning offices and see the plans of any building. Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods".
- gumby 10y ago
  > Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods". Magicians! (an exception that proves your rule of course)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- DougWebb 10y ago
  Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods". For plumbing, building codes dictate the range of solutions that are available for any given problem, and they're not secret (but buying a guide can be expensive.) However, painters, plumbers, and other trades definitely have tips and techniques that they've learned through experience and from mentors, and you won't find much of that being given away freely. You've got to learn it the way they did, through hard work and apprenticeship. And that's ok, because those skills require mastery to use properly, and that's true in software development too.
  - paganel 10y ago
    > However, painters, plumbers, and other trades definitely have tips and techniques that they've learned through experience and from mentors, and you won't find much of that being given away freely. Exactly this. My father is a civil engineer who's now in his early 60s, and he recently got to work with colleagues much younger than him. He told me that said colleagues didn't know some trade-related stuff which hadn't got covered in university courses (like how to reinforce earth ditches when digging in mountainous terrain with probable heavy rains) but which was paramount in keeping the work going (not much that you can do once a ditch collapses because of heavy rain). He told me that in this instance he had instructed his younger colleagues on what was the correct procedure to take, but he also told me that he's got other professional secrets that he's not ready to share just yet.
    - estebank 10y ago
      > but he also told me that he's got other professional secrets that he's not ready to share just yet. I'm curious enough to ask: why?
      - paganel 10y ago
        For job security, I think. We're lucky enough as programmers not to have to worry about that too much, but when you're a civil engineer in a quite poor part of the country and the continent (I'm talking Eastern Europe) you do not have much better other options.
- brudgers 10y ago
  I've been in AEC since 1989. I can count with the fingers on one head the number of times I've seen individual architects form a community based on unpaid contributions to some big firm's profit driven project. That's bread and butter at Google. The difference is that construction has long been a commodity industry and software has not become one yet.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Speaking as an artist, this was untrue for us as well pretty much until the internet democratized things. Prior to this the assumption was that if you're good you should just be able to do it or that it should locked up in guru-like ateliers that parcel it out at high cost like Scientology courses. Of course access to basic art instruction has always been available, but a lot of advanced techniques or knowledge in specific subdomains (e.g. animation) was pretty closely guarded.
- dntrkv 10y ago
  Those professions cannot be compared with software, you would have to compare an industry where the product is intangible. Do you see musicians making samples and giving them away to other musicians for free? Sure, you can find some online but it is definitely not the norm. Does Hollywood create stock footage and release it for other production companies to use for free? Do photographers allow others to use their photos for free? OSS is very unique to the software world.
  - yellowapple 10y ago
    I reckon the increasing popularity of FOSS is paving the way for the examples you've listed to start becoming mainstream. Social media is already starting to kick that third one into gear, and I wouldn't be surprised if the growing remix culture soon evolves into licensing terms that expand fair use to "you can sample my song as part of your song as long as your song is substantially different from my song".
pinkythepig 10y ago
Closed source is what is unique. I can tear apart any engine to understand how it works. I can rip out the bathroom in my house and install a totally new one. With closed source, I can't just rip out component X and replace it with component Y. I can't read the binary to understand how it works (Technically I could, but I mean that with modern languages, the assembly looks massively different from the original source).
- loginatnine 10y ago
  You can tear it apart and understands how the mechanism work but you don't have the million details about the manufacturing process, precise drawings with tolerances, material composition, etc.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  I'd say that analyzing a finished mechanical device is similar to examining disassemblies and hex dumps of program files. You're missing information on the manufacturing process, allowable part tolerances, and so on, that the original manufacturers have access to.
  - bsilvereagle 10y ago
    Once you have the asm of a program, you have 100% knowledge of it if you put the time in to learn& follow the assembly. Sure, it's not as easy as looking at the source, but you have the capability of fully understanding the program. With a mechanical device, you don't know the dimensions on press fits, you don't know what the aluminum was heat treated to, you don't know the silica to aluminum ratio and how that affects thermal expansion, you don't know what lubricant was used, you don't know what blend the fiberglass insulation is, the list goes on and on. It's not possible to obtain 100% knowledge without the drawings. At best, you make assumptions about material processes, what a reasonable press fit would be, occasionally you can spark test to make a guess at material composition, etc. There isn't a "holy grail" (1) mechanical equivalent to a hexdump where if you grind at it long enough you achieve 100% knowledge. (1) Obtaining a complete set of original drawings is, but unlike a hexdump, you can't get the drawings from the finished product.
jotux 10y ago
Cooking and music are two professions that come to mind.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
throwaway360181 10y ago
It's free labor, and companies love free labor. They claim to value candidates that produce open source, but somehow those who toil night after night on their passion projects never seem to see any job offers materializing as a result. At best they get recruiter spam (for which many here argue they should be grateful) inviting them to submit themselves to a whiteboarding carried out by an arrogant 20-something often fresh out of college and eager to assert their dominance.

The idea of "open source" is also unique, I can't think of any other professions that have something analogous.

by choxi 10y ago

The idea of "open source" is also unique, I can't think of any other professions that have something analogous.

No, closed source is I think the more unique thing. I can go to planning offices and see the plans of any building. Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods".

gumby 10y ago
> Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods". Magicians! (an exception that proves your rule of course)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
DougWebb 10y ago
Almost no-one has "secret painting methods", or "secret plumbing methods". For plumbing, building codes dictate the range of solutions that are available for any given problem, and they're not secret (but buying a guide can be expensive.) However, painters, plumbers, and other trades definitely have tips and techniques that they've learned through experience and from mentors, and you won't find much of that being given away freely. You've got to learn it the way they did, through hard work and apprenticeship. And that's ok, because those skills require mastery to use properly, and that's true in software development too.
- paganel 10y ago
  > However, painters, plumbers, and other trades definitely have tips and techniques that they've learned through experience and from mentors, and you won't find much of that being given away freely. Exactly this. My father is a civil engineer who's now in his early 60s, and he recently got to work with colleagues much younger than him. He told me that said colleagues didn't know some trade-related stuff which hadn't got covered in university courses (like how to reinforce earth ditches when digging in mountainous terrain with probable heavy rains) but which was paramount in keeping the work going (not much that you can do once a ditch collapses because of heavy rain). He told me that in this instance he had instructed his younger colleagues on what was the correct procedure to take, but he also told me that he's got other professional secrets that he's not ready to share just yet.
  - estebank 10y ago
    > but he also told me that he's got other professional secrets that he's not ready to share just yet. I'm curious enough to ask: why?
    - paganel 10y ago
      For job security, I think. We're lucky enough as programmers not to have to worry about that too much, but when you're a civil engineer in a quite poor part of the country and the continent (I'm talking Eastern Europe) you do not have much better other options.
brudgers 10y ago
I've been in AEC since 1989. I can count with the fingers on one head the number of times I've seen individual architects form a community based on unpaid contributions to some big firm's profit driven project. That's bread and butter at Google. The difference is that construction has long been a commodity industry and software has not become one yet.
alphonsegaston 10y ago
Speaking as an artist, this was untrue for us as well pretty much until the internet democratized things. Prior to this the assumption was that if you're good you should just be able to do it or that it should locked up in guru-like ateliers that parcel it out at high cost like Scientology courses. Of course access to basic art instruction has always been available, but a lot of advanced techniques or knowledge in specific subdomains (e.g. animation) was pretty closely guarded.
dntrkv 10y ago
Those professions cannot be compared with software, you would have to compare an industry where the product is intangible. Do you see musicians making samples and giving them away to other musicians for free? Sure, you can find some online but it is definitely not the norm. Does Hollywood create stock footage and release it for other production companies to use for free? Do photographers allow others to use their photos for free? OSS is very unique to the software world.
- yellowapple 10y ago
  I reckon the increasing popularity of FOSS is paving the way for the examples you've listed to start becoming mainstream. Social media is already starting to kick that third one into gear, and I wouldn't be surprised if the growing remix culture soon evolves into licensing terms that expand fair use to "you can sample my song as part of your song as long as your song is substantially different from my song".

pinkythepig 10y ago

Closed source is what is unique. I can tear apart any engine to understand how it works. I can rip out the bathroom in my house and install a totally new one. With closed source, I can't just rip out component X and replace it with component Y. I can't read the binary to understand how it works (Technically I could, but I mean that with modern languages, the assembly looks massively different from the original source).

loginatnine 10y ago
You can tear it apart and understands how the mechanism work but you don't have the million details about the manufacturing process, precise drawings with tolerances, material composition, etc.
khedoros1 10y ago
I'd say that analyzing a finished mechanical device is similar to examining disassemblies and hex dumps of program files. You're missing information on the manufacturing process, allowable part tolerances, and so on, that the original manufacturers have access to.
- bsilvereagle 10y ago
  Once you have the asm of a program, you have 100% knowledge of it if you put the time in to learn& follow the assembly. Sure, it's not as easy as looking at the source, but you have the capability of fully understanding the program. With a mechanical device, you don't know the dimensions on press fits, you don't know what the aluminum was heat treated to, you don't know the silica to aluminum ratio and how that affects thermal expansion, you don't know what lubricant was used, you don't know what blend the fiberglass insulation is, the list goes on and on. It's not possible to obtain 100% knowledge without the drawings. At best, you make assumptions about material processes, what a reasonable press fit would be, occasionally you can spark test to make a guess at material composition, etc. There isn't a "holy grail" (1) mechanical equivalent to a hexdump where if you grind at it long enough you achieve 100% knowledge. (1) Obtaining a complete set of original drawings is, but unlike a hexdump, you can't get the drawings from the finished product.

jotux 10y ago

Cooking and music are two professions that come to mind.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

throwaway360181 10y ago

It's free labor, and companies love free labor. They claim to value candidates that produce open source, but somehow those who toil night after night on their passion projects never seem to see any job offers materializing as a result. At best they get recruiter spam (for which many here argue they should be grateful) inviting them to submit themselves to a whiteboarding carried out by an arrogant 20-something often fresh out of college and eager to assert their dominance.