4 ms·

The catch-22 is that chemotherapy and cancer itself can reduce appetite and cause weight loss, so doctors demur when their more self-informed patients stumble

The catch-22 is that chemotherapy and cancer itself can reduce appetite and cause weight loss, so doctors demur when their more self-informed patients stumble across research on (temporary) fasting's protective effect (throw "cellular autophagy and health" into Google and you can immerse yourself for hours). Malnutrition can in turn harm the immune system. Where's the sweet spot? Who knows, and the fear of malpractice suits slows down progress.

gr3yh47 10y ago
I would say that another huge impediment to some research is the pharmaceutical industry's incredible lobbying power. you bet they want to make gosh darn sure that if something is going to help cancer they want to be able to charge thousands of dollars/dose for it
- lawless123 10y ago
  >you bet they want to make gosh darn sure that if something is going to help cancer they want to be able to charge thousands of dollars/dose for it Special $500 fasting pills which contain only water.
- phkahler 10y ago
  Yep. Another great one to throw into google is Iodine and apoptosis: https://www.google.com/#q=iodine+apoptosis https://www.google.com/#q=iodine+apoptosis The first two results are NIH papers on the topic.
  - zaphods-towel 10y ago
    Hi, can you talk a bit more about this? I have extremely low iodine and have been trying to figure out how to address it, so your mention of iodine caught my attention. Also, when you say iodine and apoptosis my first thought is cancer treatment— is that what you're implying?
    - phkahler 10y ago
      Oh if you try it, ramp up iodine slowly. I had some strange reactions the first two days. YMMV again.
    - phkahler 10y ago
      The RDA for iodine is 150 micrograms. I treated my asthma (lungs use iodine too) with about 1mg of iodine daily and 250mg of magnesium - YMMV of course. I was taking kelp supplements but needed 6 a day to get the amount I wanted. Another source is Lugol's solution - a few drops in a cup of water is several mg. I also use Lugol's for healing cuts, scrapes, and scars. Iodine has also been suggested as a cancer cure for many different types - some strains of breast cancer in particular. This is because there are a couple pathways leading to apoptosis that require iodine to function - turns out your mitochondria need iodine too. The funniest thing I ran across in all this was an article about the link between kelp and reduced breast cancer risk. At the end they said this should be investigated further because the author knew kelp had high iodine content and thought that would be bad for people. In other words, we need to isolate the anti-cancer agent and commercialize it so you don't kill yourself with too much iodine. Funny because the iodine is likely the anti-cancer agent, and is not bad for you in the slightest.
- lr4444lr 10y ago
  I don't disagree, but academia and government (which I realize are not always separate from corporate R&D) are enormous drivers of scientific progress. There's a lot of quackery out there which I think erroneously magnifies the conspiratorial suppressive power of the pharmaceutical industry. My argument is simply this: doctors need more leverage to use cutting edge research in their practice. I am not in the medical field, and I don't know exactly how to accomplish this, but must surely lose a lot of organic ground-level experimentation at individual doctor-patient mutual consent, which would generate a wealth of epidemiological data with which to move medicine forward. It deprives patients of certain medical alternatives, and doctors of part of their scientific capacity as experimentalists. The entire field of vaccinations began from an observation of smallpox immunity in the Turkish country side where folk wisdom was to rub scabs into superficial wounds of healthy children. When western doctors observed a stark decrease in the infection rate, this began experimentation that became the foundation of the modern practice. I don't think that this could be done today. The extreme counterexample is the Tuskegee experiment, but the key element missing there was patient awareness of their own participation as an experimental control.
- digler999 10y ago
  At least their remedies work, unlike holistic medicine that charges thousands of dollars to cleanse peoples' chakras.
baldfat 10y ago
The effects on mood and brain function is pretty much an established benefit. "... studies have built on decades-old research establishing a connection between caloric intake and brain function." http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-summer-2016/articles/are-there-any-proven-benefits-to-fasting http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-summer... As someone that USE TO (Why is it you have more self-discipline in your 20s then your older years???) Fast about once a week for 24 hours (supper to supper). There are many positive benefits as a person when you go past 3 days also. There are plenty of studies out there about fasting and its benefits and risk. People who have never done more then 3 days nor have read scientific research seem to see this as a negative. The human body can go for more then 40 days without food so a few days actually has very little negative "malnutrition" issues. The stomach takes about 3 days to shrink after that has finished you actually don't really feel hungry and surprisingly you would be shocked at the spike in energy and focus you get for the days 4-10. Longest I have ever done was 10 days but man food explodes with flavor. One of my favorite things is after coming back to food everything taste better and is more enjoyable.
- bflesch 10y ago
  What kind of drinks do you drink during that fasting period? I imagine I'd collapse after one day if I wouldn't drink soda or something high-sugar / high-coffeine.
  - dorfsmay 10y ago
    Fasting means no calories. No you wouldn't collapse, the body stores fat exactly for this reason. When you fast, eventually your body switches to fat burning mode.
  - wlll 10y ago
    When I was fasting for 24 hour periods (I really need to get back on that) I would drink black coffee and water. I stopped drinking soda many years ago (apart from the odd coke at a party or something). Realised it was addictive. It just feels normal to always be drinking water now. I don't miss it. Coffee, I turn my machine on in the morning and it's 50/50 if I remember to drink one during the day. I drink a fair amount of tea (PG Tips with milk, I'm English) though.
dorfsmay 10y ago
Malnutrition is about lacking essential nutrients. Fasting is very different than "eating less". The body works in one of two mode. 1: use current energy, as long as you provide energy (eating) it'll use it and make you hungry if you're not giving it enough. 2: use stored energy. If you stop eating for long enough (some say 12 hours, other say 24 hours, I suspect it depends on what you have make your body used to, eg some long distance runners fast to make their body switch to fat burning mode earlier). The body has zero energy available in stomach/muscles, it'll then start burning stored fat ; unless you're very skinny, you can go on stored fat for a long time. If you eat normal meals (no calorie restriction, you shouldn't be hungry at the end of the meal) between fasts, it shouldn't lead to health problems. Recent studies show that the refeeding at the end of a 5+ day fast is benefic for your health, the closest thing to stem cells. Google "Valter Longo" for more information about it. For general information about fasting, check Jason Fung material (blogs, youtube). He's a medical doctor who runs a clinic to cure patients of diabetes type 2 through fasting, and has put out a lot of material out there with lots of explanations.
apathy 10y ago
1) Tanya is an oncologist 2) Cachexia != fasting. Not much you can do about cachexia, it is an end stage phenomenon where the tumor is hijacking essentially all incoming nutrition. Feed the patient, feed the goober. 3) reversing myeloid bias (I'm dubious about this, even though Gregor was not the kind of fast and loose player that would fudge counts) would, if true, enhance innate and adaptive responses (subject to a million caveats because Immunology Is Really Fucking Hard) If patients consent to trials and enough evidence accumulates it will become the standard of care. Of course it's going to be tough to patent not eating so don't hold your breath.

gr3yh47 10y ago

I would say that another huge impediment to some research is the pharmaceutical industry's incredible lobbying power. you bet they want to make gosh darn sure that if something is going to help cancer they want to be able to charge thousands of dollars/dose for it

lawless123 10y ago
>you bet they want to make gosh darn sure that if something is going to help cancer they want to be able to charge thousands of dollars/dose for it Special $500 fasting pills which contain only water.
phkahler 10y ago
Yep. Another great one to throw into google is Iodine and apoptosis: https://www.google.com/#q=iodine+apoptosis https://www.google.com/#q=iodine+apoptosis The first two results are NIH papers on the topic.
- zaphods-towel 10y ago
  Hi, can you talk a bit more about this? I have extremely low iodine and have been trying to figure out how to address it, so your mention of iodine caught my attention. Also, when you say iodine and apoptosis my first thought is cancer treatment— is that what you're implying?
  - phkahler 10y ago
    Oh if you try it, ramp up iodine slowly. I had some strange reactions the first two days. YMMV again.
  - phkahler 10y ago
    The RDA for iodine is 150 micrograms. I treated my asthma (lungs use iodine too) with about 1mg of iodine daily and 250mg of magnesium - YMMV of course. I was taking kelp supplements but needed 6 a day to get the amount I wanted. Another source is Lugol's solution - a few drops in a cup of water is several mg. I also use Lugol's for healing cuts, scrapes, and scars. Iodine has also been suggested as a cancer cure for many different types - some strains of breast cancer in particular. This is because there are a couple pathways leading to apoptosis that require iodine to function - turns out your mitochondria need iodine too. The funniest thing I ran across in all this was an article about the link between kelp and reduced breast cancer risk. At the end they said this should be investigated further because the author knew kelp had high iodine content and thought that would be bad for people. In other words, we need to isolate the anti-cancer agent and commercialize it so you don't kill yourself with too much iodine. Funny because the iodine is likely the anti-cancer agent, and is not bad for you in the slightest.
lr4444lr 10y ago
I don't disagree, but academia and government (which I realize are not always separate from corporate R&D) are enormous drivers of scientific progress. There's a lot of quackery out there which I think erroneously magnifies the conspiratorial suppressive power of the pharmaceutical industry. My argument is simply this: doctors need more leverage to use cutting edge research in their practice. I am not in the medical field, and I don't know exactly how to accomplish this, but must surely lose a lot of organic ground-level experimentation at individual doctor-patient mutual consent, which would generate a wealth of epidemiological data with which to move medicine forward. It deprives patients of certain medical alternatives, and doctors of part of their scientific capacity as experimentalists. The entire field of vaccinations began from an observation of smallpox immunity in the Turkish country side where folk wisdom was to rub scabs into superficial wounds of healthy children. When western doctors observed a stark decrease in the infection rate, this began experimentation that became the foundation of the modern practice. I don't think that this could be done today. The extreme counterexample is the Tuskegee experiment, but the key element missing there was patient awareness of their own participation as an experimental control.
digler999 10y ago
At least their remedies work, unlike holistic medicine that charges thousands of dollars to cleanse peoples' chakras.

baldfat 10y ago

The effects on mood and brain function is pretty much an established benefit. "... studies have built on decades-old research establishing a connection between caloric intake and brain function." http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-summer-2016/articles/are-there-any-proven-benefits-to-fasting http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-summer... As someone that USE TO (Why is it you have more self-discipline in your 20s then your older years???) Fast about once a week for 24 hours (supper to supper). There are many positive benefits as a person when you go past 3 days also. There are plenty of studies out there about fasting and its benefits and risk. People who have never done more then 3 days nor have read scientific research seem to see this as a negative. The human body can go for more then 40 days without food so a few days actually has very little negative "malnutrition" issues. The stomach takes about 3 days to shrink after that has finished you actually don't really feel hungry and surprisingly you would be shocked at the spike in energy and focus you get for the days 4-10. Longest I have ever done was 10 days but man food explodes with flavor. One of my favorite things is after coming back to food everything taste better and is more enjoyable.

bflesch 10y ago
What kind of drinks do you drink during that fasting period? I imagine I'd collapse after one day if I wouldn't drink soda or something high-sugar / high-coffeine.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  Fasting means no calories. No you wouldn't collapse, the body stores fat exactly for this reason. When you fast, eventually your body switches to fat burning mode.
- wlll 10y ago
  When I was fasting for 24 hour periods (I really need to get back on that) I would drink black coffee and water. I stopped drinking soda many years ago (apart from the odd coke at a party or something). Realised it was addictive. It just feels normal to always be drinking water now. I don't miss it. Coffee, I turn my machine on in the morning and it's 50/50 if I remember to drink one during the day. I drink a fair amount of tea (PG Tips with milk, I'm English) though.

dorfsmay 10y ago

Malnutrition is about lacking essential nutrients. Fasting is very different than "eating less". The body works in one of two mode. 1: use current energy, as long as you provide energy (eating) it'll use it and make you hungry if you're not giving it enough. 2: use stored energy. If you stop eating for long enough (some say 12 hours, other say 24 hours, I suspect it depends on what you have make your body used to, eg some long distance runners fast to make their body switch to fat burning mode earlier). The body has zero energy available in stomach/muscles, it'll then start burning stored fat ; unless you're very skinny, you can go on stored fat for a long time. If you eat normal meals (no calorie restriction, you shouldn't be hungry at the end of the meal) between fasts, it shouldn't lead to health problems. Recent studies show that the refeeding at the end of a 5+ day fast is benefic for your health, the closest thing to stem cells. Google "Valter Longo" for more information about it. For general information about fasting, check Jason Fung material (blogs, youtube). He's a medical doctor who runs a clinic to cure patients of diabetes type 2 through fasting, and has put out a lot of material out there with lots of explanations.

apathy 10y ago

1) Tanya is an oncologist 2) Cachexia != fasting. Not much you can do about cachexia, it is an end stage phenomenon where the tumor is hijacking essentially all incoming nutrition. Feed the patient, feed the goober. 3) reversing myeloid bias (I'm dubious about this, even though Gregor was not the kind of fast and loose player that would fudge counts) would, if true, enhance innate and adaptive responses (subject to a million caveats because Immunology Is Really Fucking Hard) If patients consent to trials and enough evidence accumulates it will become the standard of care. Of course it's going to be tough to patent not eating so don't hold your breath.