7 ms·

Nonsense. Growth may slow down, but why in the world would you expect numbers to drop? Do you consider that internal combustion stuff to somehow have advantages

Nonsense. Growth may slow down, but why in the world would you expect numbers to drop? Do you consider that internal combustion stuff to somehow have advantages over contemporary technologies?

paganel 10y ago
ICE vehicles are still considerably cheaper compared to EV. Show me a 10,000-15,000 euro electric hatchback that I'd be able to drive for 10+ years without having to purchase expensive batteries every 4-5 years and I'd buy it.
- interfixus 10y ago
  My sincere guess is we shall reach the crossover point long before those ten years are up. Your new batteries won't cost you all that much in five years. But your petrol will.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  In Norway a Golf costs $50k, a family sedan $80k and the most powerful 7-series can be $300k. This is because ICE vehicles have huge taxes in Norway. A pure EV basically gets a 50% tax cut, which can be $100k if you were looking at a comparable ICE car to the Model S. So in Norway the opposite is true "ICE vehicles are considerably more expensive". You can also ask yourself this: what value you get for your money on a given budget if you buy a Golf at $50k which is half taxes, versus a Bolt at a similar price with almost none of it being tax? I'd choose the Bolt any day. Obviously none of this translates to anywhere else. It's a lot easier to give a massive tax break if you had a huge tax initially, than it would be for e.g the US to slap on a 20% tax on new ICE vehicles. (Unless of course they are made in Mexico in which case it's apparently easy).
- syncordie 10y ago
  The Mahindra e2o Plus is priced between 10-15K USD (but currently only available in India I think) https://www.mahindrae2oplus.com/ https://www.mahindrae2oplus.com/ I've owned an older model for 4+ years now. I haven't seen any drop in battery performance yet and the company says the battery should last 8+ years without problems. I can believe that based on my experience. The older model is available in the UK. https://mahindrauk.com https://mahindrauk.com
  - thedrbrian 10y ago
    I'm going to be honest that looks awful and not comparable to a cheap car like a Micra, Twingo or any of the other cheap city cars. Seems like you're losing a lot just to save a few quid on petrol.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - kbart 10y ago
    How safe it is? Indian cars are infamous for their zero star safety rating.
- ebbv 10y ago
  While the initial cost of EVs is higher the idea that you have to buy new batteries every 4-5 years is completely wrong. There are LEAFs with over 100k miles on their original batteries still running strong.
- maxsilver 10y ago
  A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR. In five years, replace the battery for an extra ~5K EUR (you probably won't need to, my EV battery is 4+ years old with 50k miles on it and still works great, but we'll include it in the cost just to calm your fears) Even including a brand new battery, total cost is still well below your 15K EUR max budget, using real-world numbers you can actually purchase with today : http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZOE&postcode=sw1a0aa&radius=200&price-to=9500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-from=500&search-target=usedcars&quicksearch=true http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZO...
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    >A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR. What? Where? Denmark? I'd seriously consider. Here (Finland) they are completely unavailable as used, and new ones start at 32 990 €.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      The GP linked to a UK website in their comment.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Oh. Right-hand drive. Not very good here. It looks like a new Zoe sells for exactly half the price in UK (14 k£ , 16 400 €) than here in Finland (33 k€). Is there a substantial subsidy on electric cars in UK? Here they have less tax than others.
        ZenoArrow 10y ago
        There is a substantial subsidy, but not one that covers the full price difference you've highlighted: https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get
  - paganel 10y ago
- wongarsu 10y ago
  I think it's unfair to add battery purchases to the purchasing cost. They are effectively fuel costs because they depend on full charge/discharge cycles (and thus on distance driven).
- dabeeeenster 10y ago
  This trope of having to replace EV batteries every 5 years is so prevalent, and so wrong, that I'm beginning to be suspicious as to its use.
  - mrfusion 10y ago
    It happens in laptops. Why should cars be any different?
    - cesarb 10y ago
      Because electric cars don't actually use 100% of the battery. If the battery is only charged to say 80%, and only discharged to say 30%, instead of doing full charges and discharges, it'll last longer. EV manufacturers know this trick and stop charging at something like 80%, while telling the user it's fully charged. See for instance this article: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-last/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-c...
      - mrfusion 10y ago
        Why can't that be an option on laptops? I'd take that trade off.
        F2 10y ago
        It is on pretty much any quality laptop from this decade. I don't remember the last time I've had to replace a laptop battery.
        Neliquat 10y ago
        I toast mine every 6mo-3 years if I actually use it on battery often (i do). Most laptop owners just want a compact desktop, and use theirs as one. Obviously batteries last longer than the tech is viable in that case. Smart usage used to make a larger difference, but the new batt tech seems less sensitive to heavy useage.
- cowardlydragon 10y ago
  ... without carbon taxes. Seriously people, everyone driving ICEs is using a massive subsidy loophole with respect to carbon emissions.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Outside of the US, very high gasoline taxes are common, even in the absence of more general carbon taxes; while gasoline users may still benefit from externalized costs, I think the case is less than clear-cut.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  Where are you getting your "some people replace their EV batteries after 4 years" fact?

Nonsense. Growth may slow down, but why in the world would you expect numbers to drop? Do you consider that internal combustion stuff to somehow have advantages over contemporary technologies?

paganel 10y ago

ICE vehicles are still considerably cheaper compared to EV. Show me a 10,000-15,000 euro electric hatchback that I'd be able to drive for 10+ years without having to purchase expensive batteries every 4-5 years and I'd buy it.

interfixus 10y ago
My sincere guess is we shall reach the crossover point long before those ten years are up. Your new batteries won't cost you all that much in five years. But your petrol will.
alkonaut 10y ago
In Norway a Golf costs $50k, a family sedan $80k and the most powerful 7-series can be $300k. This is because ICE vehicles have huge taxes in Norway. A pure EV basically gets a 50% tax cut, which can be $100k if you were looking at a comparable ICE car to the Model S. So in Norway the opposite is true "ICE vehicles are considerably more expensive". You can also ask yourself this: what value you get for your money on a given budget if you buy a Golf at $50k which is half taxes, versus a Bolt at a similar price with almost none of it being tax? I'd choose the Bolt any day. Obviously none of this translates to anywhere else. It's a lot easier to give a massive tax break if you had a huge tax initially, than it would be for e.g the US to slap on a 20% tax on new ICE vehicles. (Unless of course they are made in Mexico in which case it's apparently easy).
syncordie 10y ago
The Mahindra e2o Plus is priced between 10-15K USD (but currently only available in India I think) https://www.mahindrae2oplus.com/ https://www.mahindrae2oplus.com/ I've owned an older model for 4+ years now. I haven't seen any drop in battery performance yet and the company says the battery should last 8+ years without problems. I can believe that based on my experience. The older model is available in the UK. https://mahindrauk.com https://mahindrauk.com
- thedrbrian 10y ago
  I'm going to be honest that looks awful and not comparable to a cheap car like a Micra, Twingo or any of the other cheap city cars. Seems like you're losing a lot just to save a few quid on petrol.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- kbart 10y ago
  How safe it is? Indian cars are infamous for their zero star safety rating.
ebbv 10y ago
While the initial cost of EVs is higher the idea that you have to buy new batteries every 4-5 years is completely wrong. There are LEAFs with over 100k miles on their original batteries still running strong.
maxsilver 10y ago
A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR. In five years, replace the battery for an extra ~5K EUR (you probably won't need to, my EV battery is 4+ years old with 50k miles on it and still works great, but we'll include it in the cost just to calm your fears) Even including a brand new battery, total cost is still well below your 15K EUR max budget, using real-world numbers you can actually purchase with today : http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZOE&postcode=sw1a0aa&radius=200&price-to=9500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-from=500&search-target=usedcars&quicksearch=true http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZO...
- ptaipale 10y ago
  >A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR. What? Where? Denmark? I'd seriously consider. Here (Finland) they are completely unavailable as used, and new ones start at 32 990 €.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    The GP linked to a UK website in their comment.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Oh. Right-hand drive. Not very good here. It looks like a new Zoe sells for exactly half the price in UK (14 k£ , 16 400 €) than here in Finland (33 k€). Is there a substantial subsidy on electric cars in UK? Here they have less tax than others.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        There is a substantial subsidy, but not one that covers the full price difference you've highlighted: https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get
- paganel 10y ago
wongarsu 10y ago
I think it's unfair to add battery purchases to the purchasing cost. They are effectively fuel costs because they depend on full charge/discharge cycles (and thus on distance driven).
dabeeeenster 10y ago
This trope of having to replace EV batteries every 5 years is so prevalent, and so wrong, that I'm beginning to be suspicious as to its use.
- mrfusion 10y ago
  It happens in laptops. Why should cars be any different?
  - cesarb 10y ago
    Because electric cars don't actually use 100% of the battery. If the battery is only charged to say 80%, and only discharged to say 30%, instead of doing full charges and discharges, it'll last longer. EV manufacturers know this trick and stop charging at something like 80%, while telling the user it's fully charged. See for instance this article: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-last/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-c...
    - mrfusion 10y ago
      Why can't that be an option on laptops? I'd take that trade off.
      - F2 10y ago
        It is on pretty much any quality laptop from this decade. I don't remember the last time I've had to replace a laptop battery.
        Neliquat 10y ago
        I toast mine every 6mo-3 years if I actually use it on battery often (i do). Most laptop owners just want a compact desktop, and use theirs as one. Obviously batteries last longer than the tech is viable in that case. Smart usage used to make a larger difference, but the new batt tech seems less sensitive to heavy useage.
cowardlydragon 10y ago
... without carbon taxes. Seriously people, everyone driving ICEs is using a massive subsidy loophole with respect to carbon emissions.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Outside of the US, very high gasoline taxes are common, even in the absence of more general carbon taxes; while gasoline users may still benefit from externalized costs, I think the case is less than clear-cut.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
Where are you getting your "some people replace their EV batteries after 4 years" fact?