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I'm getting really tired of reading hacky comparisons of iPhone vs Android to Mac vs Windows. For one thing, there is not a huge price discrepancy in the smartp

by lukifer 16y ago

I'm getting really tired of reading hacky comparisons of iPhone vs Android to Mac vs Windows. For one thing, there is not a huge price discrepancy in the smartphone space the way there was on the desktop in the 80s and 90s, when Macs tended to carry a 2-3x markup. There isn't the problem of too few games on the platform; Apple currently has the advantage here, though obviously not forever. And despite Apple's willingness to piss off devs, I would say Apple is still providing more tools and support to developers than they ever did when the Mac was fighting for survival. Windows also had an advantage of a write-once, run-anywhere software ecosystem. Other than different screen sizes, or perhaps graphic cards for games, you could expect a consistent mouse-keyboard-screen interface. Android has to account for lots of little differences in hardware form factors and feature sets, and the onus is on Android devs to manage these, which was seldom an issue for Windows devs. Mac vs. Windows was last generation's technology battle, and it's long over. We're now in uncharted territory.

netcan 16y ago
Another difference that is not to be ignored is that Windows was the backbone of one of the best businesses of the decade, maybe the best. Android is like a side project. They aren't going to fight for it like Apple will.
- jokermatt999 16y ago
  Good point on your first sentence, but I disagree with the second. From the keynote they put on yesterday, Google has made it clear that they'll put a ton of effort and innovation in. They basically called out Apple the entire time. Apple has dominance now because of their huge head start and loyal fan base, but it's looking like Google is quickly overtaking them in innovation and features. Apple will always retain a loyal fan base, but I think they're going to need to step up in adding new features to avoid losing more customers to Android, and that's without considering the factor of people getting annoyed at Apple's paternalist (or "draconian") philosophy.
  - bonaldi 16y ago
    "but it's looking like Google is quickly overtaking them in innovation and features" Such as? The announcements yesterday looked as though they'd finally caught up to iPhone 3.0, including the huge cheer for "Update All".
    - jokermatt999 16y ago
      Turn by turn directions, multitasking, tethering, OTA streaming of any music you've purchased, total phone back up including apps and data, you were saying?
      - bonaldi 16y ago
        app for that, in 4.0, got it (UK), app for that, got it. So again, a huge leap forward? Hardly.
        moultano 16y ago
        There's a free iphone app for turn by turn directions?
        jarek 16y ago
        You have wifi-hotspot "tethering" on the iPhone in the UK?
        redrobot5050 16y ago
        http://rockyourphone.com/index.php/mywi.html http://rockyourphone.com/index.php/mywi.html You can have it anywhere. Also, just because Google said Android can do it, doesn't mean carriers are going to let manufacturers enable that feature on the phone. Odds are, to enable WiFi tethering in production model phones, you will either have to a) Pay more or b) root your phone, sideload an app/firmware.
- crocowhile 16y ago
  Apple is fighting - no doubt about it - but it may be fighting using the wrong strategy. If jobs is really serious about saving the world from viruses, third party apps and porn, he's going to lose a lot of customers.
- theBobMcCormick 16y ago
  I think you're only partly correct. Android itself isn't the important piece for Google, it's an open ecosystem for their advertising. In the keynote yesterday they said something about the importance of a future not "dictated by one product and one man". I'm willing to bet Google sees the avoidance of that future to be of vital importance to the survival of their company.
  - netcan 16y ago
    Maybe Google will make money some way, down the road, directly or indirectly from Android. Maybe not. Windows was knowingly building a huge business. Android, Docs, Chrome or any of the other not directly search or advertising Google activities may be important at some stage. Right now they aren't and it isn't clear that they will be. I don't think Google is treating them as such. What I was saying is that there will be a big difference in drive between Android 2012 & Windows 1995.
    - Daishiman 16y ago
      You are absolutely wrong. Google makes money on every web search performed on any device. The point of Android is to get users to do search through Google and make the platform ubiquitous, and right now they're making money hand over fist with that. Same thing with Chrome. Chrome OS device will default to Google Search, GMail, and many services where they make money directly. It's brilliant, and it's working.
      - netcan 16y ago
        Mobile search advertising isn't making much money yet. I doubt Chrome (browser) has made a noticeable difference in Google Search market share. Google don't make much on Gmail or docs. Look, I'm not saying these are not good strategies for Google. This thread was comparing MS Windows/Dos in the early 90s to Google Chrome Android 15-20 years later. Google is (probably) not building the next biggest business via Android/Chrome. At best, they are strengthening their current (best) business and taking a punt at some new ones that have a remote chance of being businesses in the same class as Search/Adwords, Windows or iphone/ipad. Apple is building the next great computer business via iphone/ipad, or at least making a very directed effort with all their weight behind it. They are making money on it, directly, now. They stand to make a lot of money on it for an quite a long time. All I was saying is that there is a difference between these two positions.
theBobMcCormick 16y ago
You are correct that there isn't a big price difference this time around between Apple and the alternative. But, standing in for the price difference this time (at least in the US) is carrier availability. To you and iPhone you've gotta switch to AT&T who doesn't seem to be going out of there way to care for those iPhone customers (at least, that's how it appears to me as an outsider hearing constant stories of dropped calls and poor call quality). Android is available on any of the major carriers in the US (although admittedly, with less support from AT&T then from the other 3 major carriers). Not everyone wants to switch to AT&T. Hell, if there's been a 3G iPhone available for Tmobile I would have bought one long before I'd ever heard of Android.
- lukifer 16y ago
  This is a good point. At the same time, the AT&T exclusivity was a Faustian bargain to get their foot in the door, and is destined to die once the initial contract expires.
  - stanleydrew 16y ago
    When does the original contract expire? Couldn't Apple buy its way out of the contract if it wanted to?
    - lukifer 16y ago
      The contract expires after 3 or 5 years, depending on who you talk to. Most of the details are a carefully guarded secret, AFAIK.
apu 16y ago
I think you're wrong about the write-once run-anywhere software ecosystem that Windows had to deal with. There was an incredible proliferation of different hardware -- including drivers etc. -- and it was mostly up to Microsoft to make sure that the OS continued to work flawlessly (or at least at whatever level of semi-stability it managed to attain) across all of these different configurations. This is an enormous responsibility that Apple has never had to deal with -- there's a difference of at least 3 if not 4-5 orders of magnitude in the number of different types of hardware platforms that each company had to deal with. Android has a few dozen phones to support. And yes, the "metaphor" is slightly different across phones, but it's nothing like having to deal with every random piece of hardware that every company puts out.
- lukifer 16y ago
  > it was mostly up to Microsoft to make sure that the OS continued to work flawlessly I would say that's the difference: Microsoft abstracted most of the differences through their APIs. Android obviously handles some of these issues, but devs have to pay far more attention to degrading gracefully on different screen sizes, lack of multitouch, lack of hardware keyboard, etc. Of course, web devs have had to play a similar game with the various browsers for a decade and a half, so it isn't necessarily a show-stopper for the ecosystem.
- redrobot5050 16y ago
  >This is an enormous responsibility that Apple has never had to deal with -- there's a difference of at least 3 if not 4-5 orders of magnitude in the number of different types of hardware platforms that each company had to deal with. Apple is supporting two gens of hardware. The iPhone OS will support the iPhone 3GS, the latest iPod Touch, the next-gen iPhone (as of now, unreleased) and the iPad. Android has 19+ phone configurations (not counting carrier specific nuances in the firmwares) to support. I think its interesting that Mr. Lyons is "blown away" by Android features that will be coming to his iPhone in 30-60 days, with the exception of teathering (which isn't Apple's fault, but AT&T's). Also, people hate to hear this, but a jailbroken iPhone provides a much better experience and much more competitive than Androids.

by lukifer 16y ago

netcan 16y ago

Another difference that is not to be ignored is that Windows was the backbone of one of the best businesses of the decade, maybe the best. Android is like a side project. They aren't going to fight for it like Apple will.

jokermatt999 16y ago
Good point on your first sentence, but I disagree with the second. From the keynote they put on yesterday, Google has made it clear that they'll put a ton of effort and innovation in. They basically called out Apple the entire time. Apple has dominance now because of their huge head start and loyal fan base, but it's looking like Google is quickly overtaking them in innovation and features. Apple will always retain a loyal fan base, but I think they're going to need to step up in adding new features to avoid losing more customers to Android, and that's without considering the factor of people getting annoyed at Apple's paternalist (or "draconian") philosophy.
- bonaldi 16y ago
  "but it's looking like Google is quickly overtaking them in innovation and features" Such as? The announcements yesterday looked as though they'd finally caught up to iPhone 3.0, including the huge cheer for "Update All".
  - jokermatt999 16y ago
    Turn by turn directions, multitasking, tethering, OTA streaming of any music you've purchased, total phone back up including apps and data, you were saying?
    - bonaldi 16y ago
      app for that, in 4.0, got it (UK), app for that, got it. So again, a huge leap forward? Hardly.
      - moultano 16y ago
        There's a free iphone app for turn by turn directions?
      - jarek 16y ago
        You have wifi-hotspot "tethering" on the iPhone in the UK?
        redrobot5050 16y ago
        http://rockyourphone.com/index.php/mywi.html http://rockyourphone.com/index.php/mywi.html You can have it anywhere. Also, just because Google said Android can do it, doesn't mean carriers are going to let manufacturers enable that feature on the phone. Odds are, to enable WiFi tethering in production model phones, you will either have to a) Pay more or b) root your phone, sideload an app/firmware.
crocowhile 16y ago
Apple is fighting - no doubt about it - but it may be fighting using the wrong strategy. If jobs is really serious about saving the world from viruses, third party apps and porn, he's going to lose a lot of customers.
theBobMcCormick 16y ago
I think you're only partly correct. Android itself isn't the important piece for Google, it's an open ecosystem for their advertising. In the keynote yesterday they said something about the importance of a future not "dictated by one product and one man". I'm willing to bet Google sees the avoidance of that future to be of vital importance to the survival of their company.
- netcan 16y ago
  Maybe Google will make money some way, down the road, directly or indirectly from Android. Maybe not. Windows was knowingly building a huge business. Android, Docs, Chrome or any of the other not directly search or advertising Google activities may be important at some stage. Right now they aren't and it isn't clear that they will be. I don't think Google is treating them as such. What I was saying is that there will be a big difference in drive between Android 2012 & Windows 1995.
  - Daishiman 16y ago
    You are absolutely wrong. Google makes money on every web search performed on any device. The point of Android is to get users to do search through Google and make the platform ubiquitous, and right now they're making money hand over fist with that. Same thing with Chrome. Chrome OS device will default to Google Search, GMail, and many services where they make money directly. It's brilliant, and it's working.
    - netcan 16y ago
      Mobile search advertising isn't making much money yet. I doubt Chrome (browser) has made a noticeable difference in Google Search market share. Google don't make much on Gmail or docs. Look, I'm not saying these are not good strategies for Google. This thread was comparing MS Windows/Dos in the early 90s to Google Chrome Android 15-20 years later. Google is (probably) not building the next biggest business via Android/Chrome. At best, they are strengthening their current (best) business and taking a punt at some new ones that have a remote chance of being businesses in the same class as Search/Adwords, Windows or iphone/ipad. Apple is building the next great computer business via iphone/ipad, or at least making a very directed effort with all their weight behind it. They are making money on it, directly, now. They stand to make a lot of money on it for an quite a long time. All I was saying is that there is a difference between these two positions.

theBobMcCormick 16y ago

You are correct that there isn't a big price difference this time around between Apple and the alternative. But, standing in for the price difference this time (at least in the US) is carrier availability. To you and iPhone you've gotta switch to AT&T who doesn't seem to be going out of there way to care for those iPhone customers (at least, that's how it appears to me as an outsider hearing constant stories of dropped calls and poor call quality). Android is available on any of the major carriers in the US (although admittedly, with less support from AT&T then from the other 3 major carriers). Not everyone wants to switch to AT&T. Hell, if there's been a 3G iPhone available for Tmobile I would have bought one long before I'd ever heard of Android.

lukifer 16y ago
This is a good point. At the same time, the AT&T exclusivity was a Faustian bargain to get their foot in the door, and is destined to die once the initial contract expires.
- stanleydrew 16y ago
  When does the original contract expire? Couldn't Apple buy its way out of the contract if it wanted to?
  - lukifer 16y ago
    The contract expires after 3 or 5 years, depending on who you talk to. Most of the details are a carefully guarded secret, AFAIK.

apu 16y ago

I think you're wrong about the write-once run-anywhere software ecosystem that Windows had to deal with. There was an incredible proliferation of different hardware -- including drivers etc. -- and it was mostly up to Microsoft to make sure that the OS continued to work flawlessly (or at least at whatever level of semi-stability it managed to attain) across all of these different configurations. This is an enormous responsibility that Apple has never had to deal with -- there's a difference of at least 3 if not 4-5 orders of magnitude in the number of different types of hardware platforms that each company had to deal with. Android has a few dozen phones to support. And yes, the "metaphor" is slightly different across phones, but it's nothing like having to deal with every random piece of hardware that every company puts out.

lukifer 16y ago
> it was mostly up to Microsoft to make sure that the OS continued to work flawlessly I would say that's the difference: Microsoft abstracted most of the differences through their APIs. Android obviously handles some of these issues, but devs have to pay far more attention to degrading gracefully on different screen sizes, lack of multitouch, lack of hardware keyboard, etc. Of course, web devs have had to play a similar game with the various browsers for a decade and a half, so it isn't necessarily a show-stopper for the ecosystem.
redrobot5050 16y ago
>This is an enormous responsibility that Apple has never had to deal with -- there's a difference of at least 3 if not 4-5 orders of magnitude in the number of different types of hardware platforms that each company had to deal with. Apple is supporting two gens of hardware. The iPhone OS will support the iPhone 3GS, the latest iPod Touch, the next-gen iPhone (as of now, unreleased) and the iPad. Android has 19+ phone configurations (not counting carrier specific nuances in the firmwares) to support. I think its interesting that Mr. Lyons is "blown away" by Android features that will be coming to his iPhone in 30-60 days, with the exception of teathering (which isn't Apple's fault, but AT&T's). Also, people hate to hear this, but a jailbroken iPhone provides a much better experience and much more competitive than Androids.