13 ms·

Will this deter police from retaliating against someone recording them with a cell phone? I can't imagine it will. Police have a lot of options for retaliation,

by oxide 10y ago

Will this deter police from retaliating against someone recording them with a cell phone? I can't imagine it will. Police have a lot of options for retaliation, after all. Sure, it won't hold up in court if they take you to jail, but it could possibly make your life hell for 24 hours at the very least. You could lose your job being detained, for example. IIRC they can hold you that long with no justification or reason required, but I'm not a laywer so take that with a grain of salt. Or weeks, if they really wanted to fuck with you. Just leaving a patrol car around your house for awhile is pretty unsettling. Maybe I'm overthinking this. I certainly don't want to get on the wrong side of my local PD. I don't even want them to know my name, much less stop me every time they see me or otherwise retaliate against me because I whipped out a cell phone. It's almost like a chilling effect, if I have that concept right. I might be mixing that up with another term. Thinking of police retaliation makes me not want to record the police at all, out of fear of retaliation.

e40 10y ago
100% agree. They can and do make up shit all the time. A co-worker of mine was arrested last weekend when a crime was committed at his house and they told him to leave the premises. So, he crawled into the back seat of his car and went to sleep (it was 1am Saturday morning and he had nowhere to go). A hour or two later they arrested him because they told him to leave. He was in a parked car on the street. They charged him with obstruction. They dropped the charges 24 hours later.
- oxide 10y ago
  Wow. That's pretty bad. I have a similar story of inept police and injustice: I have an uncle who is a real piece of work. A druggie who my great-grandparents adopted, raised and supported until they both died. One night he was at my great-grandparents house, harrassing them for money and threatening them. My poor great-grandfather, a 71 year old man at the time, called 911. The operator heard my uncle scream something about killing my grand-grandmother. I guess he was coming off of drugs. By the time the local sheriff's office responded to the call, my uncle Tim was long gone. The only male present was my 71 year old great-grandfather, so the two deputies incompetently assumed he was the perpetrator. They didn't even let him put on shoes. They manhandled my poor grandfather. They took him to jail and he slept on the floor of a cell. He was extremely injured, my mother was furious and encouraged him to press charges. But he was a stubborn old man who spent most of his life as a fire-and-brimstone pastor of a church, in other words he was too polite to take them to court. The pictures of his injuries are burned into my brain. Massive scrapes, his thin skin peeled back. Bruises all over his face and body. The idea of him sleeping on the floor of a cell...absolutely sickening. He died a few years later, stomach cancer. He was a great man. I miss him. p.s. I also have a story of that same department doing me great justice, so keep in mind that it was the two assholes who responded, not the entire sheriff's office that was to blame. Some of those deputies were good people who saved my ass a few times, let me off the hook a few times, etc. I will say that I'm glad to have moved, though.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    From an outsiders perspective it seems that a lot of the problems originate from the amount of training required to wear the uniform.
- ZoF 10y ago
  Yes, police are clearly evil.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  >"Edward Anthony Anderson, January 15, 1996, shot while handcuffed and on the ground. Frankie Arzuega, fifteen years old, January 12, 1996, shot in the back of the head; the following Mother’s Day, his family received taunting phone calls from anonymous sources: they dialed *69 (call back) and the police answered. Anthony Baez, December 22, 1994, chocked to death for playing football on the streets of New Your City. Rene Campos, whom police said committed suicide in custody by stuffing more than half his T-shirt down his own throat, reaching three-quarters of the way down to his lungs. Garland Carter, seventeen years old, January 8, 1996, shot in the back by police who earlier that day had driven by his home, making their fingers into the shape of a gun and “firing.” Angel Castro, fifteen years old, October 23, 1996. Having already moved out of a neighborhood because of death threats from the police, Castro rode his bike back to the neighborhood to a friend’s birthday party: He accidentally ran into a police cruiser, breaking his teeth, and as he rose from the ground a cop shot him. Sherly Colon, April 25, 1997, pushed off the roof of a housing project, after which police removed the cuffs which had held her hands behind her back….The list is as long as you want to make it..." –The Culture of Make Believe, Derrick Jensen The Culture of Make Believe is a very difficult book to get through. The author talks about hate crimes and power, and how we've developed these very odd cultural norms around violence. It's pretty depressing.
  - TallGuyShort 10y ago
    Sounds very similar to some of the most chilling stories from South Africa during Apartheid: political prisoners whose corpses were photographed and clearly beaten to a pulp with the official cause of death listed as, "fell against chair."
    - kabouseng 10y ago
      O please the old story of the big bad apartheid regime. For a bit more perspective: During the difficult transition period 1990 - 1994, security forces (police) caused 518 deaths[1]. Compare that with 2013 US police caused 930 - 1240 deaths and South African police caused 409 deaths[2]. Keep in mind that during this transitional period there was basically a civil war of sorts going on, with 14000 political murders between ANC and other freedom factions during this time (1990 - 1994). And even today under a free and democratic government it is reported that police behavior is a least just as bad as under apartheid[3]. Currently the police death rate, taking into account population differences is twice as bad as the USA police death rate and four times as bad as during the worst years of police brutality during apartheid. Fact is South Africa is a deeply divided country and single sentence statements such as the one of the parent poster does no justice to the complexities that is the continually worsening South African situation. [1]https://www.censorbugbear.org/genocide/how-many-people-died-in-sa-in-hatecrimes-during-apartheid-as-compared-to-after-1994-2 https://www.censorbugbear.org/genocide/how-many-people-died-... [2]http://mg.co.za/article/2015-06-10-fdf http://mg.co.za/article/2015-06-10-fdf [3]http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/africainvestigates/2015/11/south-africa-echoes-apartheid-151118121841557.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/africainvestigates/2015/...
jaredklewis 10y ago
As the saying goes, you can beat the rap but not the ride. Though I think this is a little tangential to the recording issue. It's just the more universal problem of police misconduct. Hopefully, body cams and little brother recording of police can change this.
jasonkostempski 10y ago
While I'm sure it happens, is there any indication this happens on a large enough scale to actually worry about it? Seems like they'd just get more bad press when you record them harassing you because you recorded them the first time.
- mulmen 10y ago
  What makes you think the police care about bad press?
  - ZoF 10y ago
    Perhaps the fact that they're human? I interface with my local police at least once a month, not for recalcitrant reasons; they are good people. Is this an anecdote? Yes. Do I like seeing police as a whole cast as evil? No.
    - oxide 10y ago
      I didn't mean to paint with a wide brush, so to speak. I know police as a whole are not evil. I've been let off the hook by police quite a few times, had an officer give me a ride home when I was stranded after walking several miles as a teenager, etc. Police retaliation happens, though. Corruption exists, etc. It's not a huge stretch to imagine local police retaliating against someone who whips out a cell phone. Even if the courts won't convict that person of a crime, police can very much exact revenge just by paying more attention to you than they might have otherwise. Stopping you without cause, searching you without cause, detaining you without reason. There are plenty of ways I could imagine retaliating against a citizen if I was corrupted/otherwise morally compromised, empowered as a police officer, and had a grudge. tl;dr: I'm not casting all cops as evil, I'm stupid, but not that stupid. I'm only speculating that this court decision might not stop an officer with a grudge from retaliating against a civilian. It's perfectly logical, and wasn't intended as a generalization against police. I'm not a cop-hater.
      - lbatx 10y ago
omegaworks 10y ago
This isn't fantasy. Police retaliated against Ramsey Orta for recording the murder of Eric Garner http://www.theroot.com/nyc-man-who-recorded-eric-garner-s-choke-hold-death-tak-1790855932 http://www.theroot.com/nyc-man-who-recorded-eric-garner-s-ch...
- Sick_bias_hn 10y ago
  >Orta has been arrested several times since capturing the 2014 incident and, as the Daily News reports, most recently had a domestic violence case dismissed. Authorities had accused Orta of roughing up and threatening his wife Feb. 13 at their apartment home, the Daily News reports. It was not clear why prosecutors decided to drop the charges, but Orta said that he and his wife were good. What? So we should be lauding this domestic abuser because the _evil_ police have been ostensibly incarcerating him for no reason...? How is it that _NONE_ of the mainstream articles you google reference the actual charges he is going to be incarcerated for and _all_ of them imply he is incarcerated for filming this incident? Are you all so delusional you don't think this should be at very least referenced? He is not in jail for taking video, he is in jail for breaking the law. inb4 yet another 'shill account' is necessary to defend local police.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
lbatx 10y ago
Yes, this will deter police from retaliating. Rulings like this in other circuits already have. Will it stop it completely? Of course not. No, they cannot (lawfully) hold you for 24 hours with no reason. Quick lesson (note: everything I say below is about what is legal, not what might happen -- people (including cops) can do illegal things after all): Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) -- A set of specific facts that would cause a reasonable person to believe a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed. You may be detained if a cop has RAS on you. But RAS is a pretty low bar. If a cop has RAS and is detaining you, he's trying to get Probable Cause (PC) to arrest you. Talking will likely help him get it. I suggest you use your right to remain silent. If a cop has PC, you can be arrested. In that case, you might spend the weekend in jail before having an opportunity to get bail, or they might just release you. If you have been unlawfully detained or arrested, you can sue. It won't be easy to win, but you can sue. In many cases, police officers have what is called Qualified Immunity (QI). This means they literally cannot be sued. But now, in the Fifth Circuit, it's a clearly established right to record. This means that the officers would lose QI and could be sued for their actions.
- oxide 10y ago
  Thank you for clarifying some of the mysticism behind all of this. I had no idea QI even existed.

by oxide 10y ago

e40 10y ago

100% agree. They can and do make up shit all the time. A co-worker of mine was arrested last weekend when a crime was committed at his house and they told him to leave the premises. So, he crawled into the back seat of his car and went to sleep (it was 1am Saturday morning and he had nowhere to go). A hour or two later they arrested him because they told him to leave. He was in a parked car on the street. They charged him with obstruction. They dropped the charges 24 hours later.

oxide 10y ago
Wow. That's pretty bad. I have a similar story of inept police and injustice: I have an uncle who is a real piece of work. A druggie who my great-grandparents adopted, raised and supported until they both died. One night he was at my great-grandparents house, harrassing them for money and threatening them. My poor great-grandfather, a 71 year old man at the time, called 911. The operator heard my uncle scream something about killing my grand-grandmother. I guess he was coming off of drugs. By the time the local sheriff's office responded to the call, my uncle Tim was long gone. The only male present was my 71 year old great-grandfather, so the two deputies incompetently assumed he was the perpetrator. They didn't even let him put on shoes. They manhandled my poor grandfather. They took him to jail and he slept on the floor of a cell. He was extremely injured, my mother was furious and encouraged him to press charges. But he was a stubborn old man who spent most of his life as a fire-and-brimstone pastor of a church, in other words he was too polite to take them to court. The pictures of his injuries are burned into my brain. Massive scrapes, his thin skin peeled back. Bruises all over his face and body. The idea of him sleeping on the floor of a cell...absolutely sickening. He died a few years later, stomach cancer. He was a great man. I miss him. p.s. I also have a story of that same department doing me great justice, so keep in mind that it was the two assholes who responded, not the entire sheriff's office that was to blame. Some of those deputies were good people who saved my ass a few times, let me off the hook a few times, etc. I will say that I'm glad to have moved, though.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  From an outsiders perspective it seems that a lot of the problems originate from the amount of training required to wear the uniform.
ZoF 10y ago
Yes, police are clearly evil.
djsumdog 10y ago
>"Edward Anthony Anderson, January 15, 1996, shot while handcuffed and on the ground. Frankie Arzuega, fifteen years old, January 12, 1996, shot in the back of the head; the following Mother’s Day, his family received taunting phone calls from anonymous sources: they dialed *69 (call back) and the police answered. Anthony Baez, December 22, 1994, chocked to death for playing football on the streets of New Your City. Rene Campos, whom police said committed suicide in custody by stuffing more than half his T-shirt down his own throat, reaching three-quarters of the way down to his lungs. Garland Carter, seventeen years old, January 8, 1996, shot in the back by police who earlier that day had driven by his home, making their fingers into the shape of a gun and “firing.” Angel Castro, fifteen years old, October 23, 1996. Having already moved out of a neighborhood because of death threats from the police, Castro rode his bike back to the neighborhood to a friend’s birthday party: He accidentally ran into a police cruiser, breaking his teeth, and as he rose from the ground a cop shot him. Sherly Colon, April 25, 1997, pushed off the roof of a housing project, after which police removed the cuffs which had held her hands behind her back….The list is as long as you want to make it..." –The Culture of Make Believe, Derrick Jensen The Culture of Make Believe is a very difficult book to get through. The author talks about hate crimes and power, and how we've developed these very odd cultural norms around violence. It's pretty depressing.
- TallGuyShort 10y ago
  Sounds very similar to some of the most chilling stories from South Africa during Apartheid: political prisoners whose corpses were photographed and clearly beaten to a pulp with the official cause of death listed as, "fell against chair."
  - kabouseng 10y ago
    O please the old story of the big bad apartheid regime. For a bit more perspective: During the difficult transition period 1990 - 1994, security forces (police) caused 518 deaths[1]. Compare that with 2013 US police caused 930 - 1240 deaths and South African police caused 409 deaths[2]. Keep in mind that during this transitional period there was basically a civil war of sorts going on, with 14000 political murders between ANC and other freedom factions during this time (1990 - 1994). And even today under a free and democratic government it is reported that police behavior is a least just as bad as under apartheid[3]. Currently the police death rate, taking into account population differences is twice as bad as the USA police death rate and four times as bad as during the worst years of police brutality during apartheid. Fact is South Africa is a deeply divided country and single sentence statements such as the one of the parent poster does no justice to the complexities that is the continually worsening South African situation. [1]https://www.censorbugbear.org/genocide/how-many-people-died-in-sa-in-hatecrimes-during-apartheid-as-compared-to-after-1994-2 https://www.censorbugbear.org/genocide/how-many-people-died-... [2]http://mg.co.za/article/2015-06-10-fdf http://mg.co.za/article/2015-06-10-fdf [3]http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/africainvestigates/2015/11/south-africa-echoes-apartheid-151118121841557.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/africainvestigates/2015/...

jaredklewis 10y ago

As the saying goes, you can beat the rap but not the ride. Though I think this is a little tangential to the recording issue. It's just the more universal problem of police misconduct. Hopefully, body cams and little brother recording of police can change this.

jasonkostempski 10y ago

While I'm sure it happens, is there any indication this happens on a large enough scale to actually worry about it? Seems like they'd just get more bad press when you record them harassing you because you recorded them the first time.

mulmen 10y ago
What makes you think the police care about bad press?
- ZoF 10y ago
  Perhaps the fact that they're human? I interface with my local police at least once a month, not for recalcitrant reasons; they are good people. Is this an anecdote? Yes. Do I like seeing police as a whole cast as evil? No.
  - oxide 10y ago
    I didn't mean to paint with a wide brush, so to speak. I know police as a whole are not evil. I've been let off the hook by police quite a few times, had an officer give me a ride home when I was stranded after walking several miles as a teenager, etc. Police retaliation happens, though. Corruption exists, etc. It's not a huge stretch to imagine local police retaliating against someone who whips out a cell phone. Even if the courts won't convict that person of a crime, police can very much exact revenge just by paying more attention to you than they might have otherwise. Stopping you without cause, searching you without cause, detaining you without reason. There are plenty of ways I could imagine retaliating against a citizen if I was corrupted/otherwise morally compromised, empowered as a police officer, and had a grudge. tl;dr: I'm not casting all cops as evil, I'm stupid, but not that stupid. I'm only speculating that this court decision might not stop an officer with a grudge from retaliating against a civilian. It's perfectly logical, and wasn't intended as a generalization against police. I'm not a cop-hater.
    - lbatx 10y ago

omegaworks 10y ago

This isn't fantasy. Police retaliated against Ramsey Orta for recording the murder of Eric Garner http://www.theroot.com/nyc-man-who-recorded-eric-garner-s-choke-hold-death-tak-1790855932 http://www.theroot.com/nyc-man-who-recorded-eric-garner-s-ch...

Sick_bias_hn 10y ago
>Orta has been arrested several times since capturing the 2014 incident and, as the Daily News reports, most recently had a domestic violence case dismissed. Authorities had accused Orta of roughing up and threatening his wife Feb. 13 at their apartment home, the Daily News reports. It was not clear why prosecutors decided to drop the charges, but Orta said that he and his wife were good. What? So we should be lauding this domestic abuser because the _evil_ police have been ostensibly incarcerating him for no reason...? How is it that _NONE_ of the mainstream articles you google reference the actual charges he is going to be incarcerated for and _all_ of them imply he is incarcerated for filming this incident? Are you all so delusional you don't think this should be at very least referenced? He is not in jail for taking video, he is in jail for breaking the law. inb4 yet another 'shill account' is necessary to defend local police.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

lbatx 10y ago

Yes, this will deter police from retaliating. Rulings like this in other circuits already have. Will it stop it completely? Of course not. No, they cannot (lawfully) hold you for 24 hours with no reason. Quick lesson (note: everything I say below is about what is legal, not what might happen -- people (including cops) can do illegal things after all): Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) -- A set of specific facts that would cause a reasonable person to believe a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed. You may be detained if a cop has RAS on you. But RAS is a pretty low bar. If a cop has RAS and is detaining you, he's trying to get Probable Cause (PC) to arrest you. Talking will likely help him get it. I suggest you use your right to remain silent. If a cop has PC, you can be arrested. In that case, you might spend the weekend in jail before having an opportunity to get bail, or they might just release you. If you have been unlawfully detained or arrested, you can sue. It won't be easy to win, but you can sue. In many cases, police officers have what is called Qualified Immunity (QI). This means they literally cannot be sued. But now, in the Fifth Circuit, it's a clearly established right to record. This means that the officers would lose QI and could be sued for their actions.

oxide 10y ago
Thank you for clarifying some of the mysticism behind all of this. I had no idea QI even existed.