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German parents told to destroy Cayla dolls over hacking fears
- leereeves 10y ago> Germany has strict privacy laws to protect against surveillance. In the 20th Century Germans experienced abusive surveillance by the state - in Nazi Germany and communist East Germany. Do these laws apply to the state?
- kristianc 10y agoYes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesdatenschutzgesetz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesdatenschutzgesetz
- kekub 10y agoCorrect me if I am wrong, but I think this law only applies to legal entities.
- sveme 10y agoSure. That's why you have to always fill out all forms again and again, because previous forms at one office cannot be shared with the office next door (And because their IT sucks). In all seriousness, as an example, data retention laws are a huge topic in Germany, that have been rejected by courts again and again.
- rmc 10y ago> In all seriousness, as an example, data retention laws are a huge topic in Germany, that have been rejected by courts again and again. The EU data retention directive was struck down at an EU level by an Irish campaign group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive
- kekub 10y agoNo. There is a so called BND-law (BND := Federal Intelligence Service) that is aligned to the practices of the German intelligence service.[1] [1] https://netzpolitik.org/2016/das-neue-bnd-gesetz-alles-was-der-bnd-macht-wird-einfach-legalisiert-und-sogar-noch-ausgeweitet/ https://netzpolitik.org/2016/das-neue-bnd-gesetz-alles-was-d...
- detaro 10y agoTrue, but not the same as "privacy laws don't apply to the state".
- qznc 10y agoIn general, yes. For example, there is currently a commission which investigates the "NSA Affair". Just yesterday, chancellor Merkel was questioned for hours. Good german news about NSA-UA: https://netzpolitik.org/tag/nsa-ua/ https://netzpolitik.org/tag/nsa-ua/
- ninov 10y agoYeah it's getting investigated, but it's not looking like there will be any consequences.
- qznc 10y agoI agree. However, can you imagine that the US president having to sit down and answer questions for hours? The situation in Germany is better than in the US and probably most other countries. It is also depressing that they were unable to invite Snowden.
- tiatia 10y agoIt is very well possible that the German chancellor Merkel worked for the former East German State security under the name "IM Erika". The once was a very compromising picture of her her on the internet, showing her in front of a house of a former "dissident". Possible doing "observation" work.
- EastLondonCoder 10y agoDo you have any reputable source for this allegation?
- mkesper 10y agoIt is very well possible that this is a conspiration theory by people who fear democracy.
- 1012983801 10y agoWhere is this democracy you speak of? Germany is governed by highly paid civil servants with the help of the "public" broadcasting stations. Both the state and the "independent" broadcasting stations forcefully extract money from the working population. [In case you think I'm voting AfD -- no, I held my nose and chose SPD/FDP. For what, I do not know.]
- godmodus 10y agoGermans are well read and most are aware of state hypocrisy. The ccc, general public and governmental watchdogs keep a good watch over things. There is some restrained discontent regarding state cooperation with various agencies, and the government is well aware. So they don't push it.
- germanier 10y agoThis specific law (which among others prohibit owning such equipment) contains a clause allowing the federal and state governments to issue exceptions. They do this for police. For actually using that equipment one needs to through another process including legal review.
- andrewclunn 10y agoI see the plot for a more realistic "Child's Play" reboot here.
- kriro 10y agoI can already see the reaction of parents...Alexa/Siri how can I destroy a Cayla doll...let me search the internet for destroy Cayla doll...thank you Alexa/Siri
- mtgx 10y agoI doubt Germans use Siri, let alone Alexa, all that much.
- shawabawa3 10y agoGerman is one of the 2 languages Alexa supports, so they must use it a little
- onli 10y agoThere are other countries speaking German, that have a different outlook on privacy. However, as usual there are parts of the german society that won't have any issues using stuff like Alexa. "I have nothing to hide" is also a popular way of thinking in Germany, history be damned.
- ulfw 10y agoWhat other countries? Neither Austria nor Switzerland have a much different view on privacy.
- onli 10y agoI went out of an IT-project targeting Germany, France and Austria with the impression that the view on privacy in Austria is a lot more relaxed, and at least the interpretation of its privacy laws was less strict as well. Could be a subjective impression, linked to the project and wrong when looking at the bigger society, but at least so far I believed it. I acknowledge that Austria was also part of the streetview hysteria that broke the project over here. Might be a differing indicator.
- 10y ago
- asp_net 10y agoGerman parent here. No one is going to destroy anything just because some agency asks for it. That's for sure ;-).
- ekianjo 10y ago> A spokesman for the federal agency told Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily that Cayla amounted to a "concealed transmitting device", illegal under an article in German telecoms law (in German). Funny, but when the State does Surveillance, all of a sudden it's OK.
- retox 10y agoOr social media companies.
- _ph_ 10y agoNo it is not ok and illegal until a judge gave an order to wiretap a person. Even then, it required an extension of the laws to allow wire tapping of organized criminals within private rooms, which previously was completely forbidden.
- nilved 10y ago> No it is not ok and illegal until a judge gave an order to wiretap a person. So it's illegal unless the state says so. Who do you think the judge's boss is?
- _ph_ 10y agoIt is not the state, strictly speaking. In Germany, there are 3 pillars of the law. There is the police, which may not wiretap except under very limited conditions - it was a huge political discussion, when those exceptions were added to the German law. Before that, wiretapping in private rooms was completely banned. There is the state, which can creates laws, by which police has to act and judges judge. These laws can of course changed the legality of certain measures, but they are bounded by the constitution, and laws have been voided by the federal court due to being in violation of the constitution. Judges are independant in their role from state and police. While their salary is paid by the state, there is a good reason, that judge positions in Germany are for-life. Unless the judge performs an actual crime, he cannot be fired. This is to ensure maximal independence.
- germanier 10y ago
- alexcroox 10y agoWhat's interesting about this, is Cayla is just a bluetooth speaker. The accompanying Android app is what people have been modifying, not remotely but locally. I think the entire thing has been blown out of proportion. Give anyone physical access to your device and they can do a lot worse than make a bluetooth speaker say some offensive words...
- _ph_ 10y agoThe doll is not illegal because it can be hacked, it is illegal because it is considered a clandestine monitoring device. And the possession of those is illegal.
- yorwba 10y agoIf it can answer questions, then there must be a mic somewhere. And if it's always on and its data can be sniffed, the doll effectively becomes a bug, open to everyone who wants to listen.
- alexcroox 10y agoAFAIK there is no mic in the doll, you cannot get responses from the internet without the smart device app, you technically talk into your phone/tablet, not the doll
- tauchunfall 10y agoIn the text on Netzpolitik linked in the BBC article it says, the doll has a microphone. >Jedes bluetoothfähige Gerät in Reichweite von etwa zehn Metern kann eine Verbindung zu ihr [der Puppe] aufbauen und Lautsprecher und Mikrofon nutzen. In einem Versuch hatte ich auch über mehrere Wände hindurch auf die Puppe Zugriff. Google Translate: Each bluetooth capable device within a range of about ten meters can connect to it [the doll] and use speakers and microphone. In an attempt I had access to the doll over several walls.
- phreeza 10y ago
- _ph_ 10y agoThe headline of the article is misleading. As the article mentions itself at the end, the legal problem with the doll is, that it is a concealed listening device, a bug. And the sale and possession of these kind of devices is banned in Germany. That it can be too easily hacked, only makes the situation worse in practical terms, but the decisive factor is, that it is banned by the kind of its design.
- kazagistar 10y agoWhat about the xbox one or whatever similar always-on listening devices?
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoI believe they're not considered to be concealed, since idk, the packaging says so. Reading another comment which says it's a bluetooth speaker, so maybe the ability to listen was never reported to the consumer, which would make it a concealed listening device.
- mcguire 10y agoAccording to the article, it answers questions (using Google). I haven't seen one, but I'd expect the microphone to be featured.
- germanier 10y agoAn Xbox looks like a technical device and it's not unreasonable to assume that it might contain a microphone that is transmitting what it picks up but this is still on the line. A doll looks like stuffed fabric and it would never occur to me that it might contain a microphone that's sending what I'm saying in the room.
- ominous 10y agobut now it does (occur to you that dolls can have hidden microphones). I also wouldn't expect a TV to have a microphone, but smart TVs proved me wrong.
- acqq 10y agoFrom what I understand, the main problem of the doll is that, as soon it is turned on, it pairs to the first Bluetooth connection it can? That means, if the child is using it without the parents, they can't know with whom the child communicates. Once paired, the Internet-dependent functionality is provided by the device and the app with which the doll was paired. The attacks are possible because the hacker can provide his own "server side" handling (the doll being the client). The doll has a built in microphone and speaker. It's the app on the mobile phone that connects to the internet and "transcripts" the voice of the questions into something that can be processed by sending it to some servers. The iOS version of the app can do 3000 transcriptions before you have to purchase more. http://myfriendcayla.co.uk/public/downloads/cayla_FAQ.pdf http://myfriendcayla.co.uk/public/downloads/cayla_FAQ.pdf From what I read, when not paired, the doll is offline but if powered it still "talks" and "listens", just without the processing possible through the app and the servers across the internet and for EU, that's another problem: are the servers in the EU or not, are they doing special treatment of the data as it's known the data are from minors etc.
- germanier 10y agoNo, the main problem is that a) it looks like a doll b) it has a microphone c) it can transmit recorded voice. That's enough to make owning that device illegal. That it transmits the voice of unsuspecting children (who of course also have privacy rights) to who-knows-where is just the icing on the cake.