6 ms·

This number conflates can with will. We cannot rule out the possibility that actual mobility is low because people at the bottom choose not to engage in behavio

This number conflates can with will. We cannot rule out the possibility that actual mobility is low because people at the bottom choose not to engage in behaviors that would help them rise. I.e., imagine if the poor simply refuse work that's available [1], choose to have children outside of wedlock, do lots of drugs and commit lots of crime, they will likely remain poor. That's not evidence that "rags to riches" is impossible or even difficult, it's merely evidence that some people prefer other things more than riches and those people don't move up. Here's a concrete thought experiment: imagine a poor Gujurati or Bengali moves to the US. Do you think he'll remain poor? [1] It's a common liberal trope that we need Mexican immigration because they do jobs that "Americans just won't do". Strangely the implications of this are never explored.

timr 10y ago
" We cannot rule out the possibility that actual mobility is low because people at the bottom choose not to engage in behaviors that would help them rise." Actually, your statement is such a common (and cruel) myth that there's a there's a whole episode in the series debunking it. You should listen to it. http://www.wnyc.org/story/who-deserves-to-be-poor/ http://www.wnyc.org/story/who-deserves-to-be-poor/
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  No, it's you who is spreading myths. The poor choose not to work: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/working-poor/archive/a-profile-of-the-working-poor-2013.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/working-poor/archive/a-prof... http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... Single motherhood is strongly correlated with poverty: http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm The poor commit lots of crimes, including crimes with no economic motive (wife beating, rape): https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf The poor also disproportionately do drugs: https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTabs/NSDUH-MHDetTabs2013.pdf https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTab...
  - Retric 10y ago
    There is a lot of bias in these numbers. People who have more money are less likely get fought doing drugs, but they are also able to afford to do more drugs. The risks of doing drugs drop when you do one transaction a month, vs trying to feed a daily or even hourly habit.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      Too bad the study authors didn't think of that. If they did, they might have decided to use a survey rather than arrest data. Then they might even have titled the study "RESULTS FROM THE 2013 NATIONAL SURVEY ON DRUG USE AND HEALTH: MENTAL HEALTH DETAILED TABLES". Step 1 in making a methodological critique of a study is to actually read the study.
      - Retric 10y ago
        Yes, because the CEO of IBM is going to say they use drugs. Survey does not mean what you think it means. If you read this they are going to defend the method as a means to track tends but not the actual numbers involved.
        yummyfajitas 10y ago
        Unlike last time when you clearly didn't read it, I think that this time you actually read the study and identified a major methodological flaw (in under 11 minutes!!!) that the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration didn't notice at all.
        Retric 10y ago
        No, working with heath data on a regular basis I can tell you that it's not a flaw in the study. It's a flaw in your interpretation of the study. Pill speaking behavior for example is common even amount those who don't consider themselves drug addicts. Surveys are a very useful tool, but because the heath care community and patient don't agree on definitions they don't represent absolute numbers well.
sdrothrock 10y ago
> imagine if the poor simply refuse work that's available (i.e. the kind of jobs that Mexicans do), choose to have children outside of wedlock, do lots of drugs and commit lots of crime, they will likely remain poor. I'm from a relatively poor family (food stamps, free lunches) and have always been a believer in "where there's a will, there's a way," but this comment has a definite bias. You could have put in more "positive" choices that would have been completely realistic. Perhaps they choose to spend more time with their children instead of 100 hours a week in the office or at two or three jobs, or they choose to live in a small town near family despite limited upward growth opportunities. Many people I went to high school with are "poor" because of the latter choice. When you grow up with a local supportive network and everyone helps everyone else out (say, driving someone to work because their car broke down, watching someone else's kids because their mother is sick, passing on hand-me-downs), it's very hard to leave that network -- not only because of the loss of safety, but because of the social aspect of betrayal; leaving the network represents a loss of resources for everyone in the network and can be seen as a selfish behavior. There are more reasons to "stay poor" than "looking down on work, too much sex, drugs, and crime."
- someguydave 10y ago
  >but this comment has a definite bias. The fact that a majority of poor people are not criminals does not exclude the possibility that that criminals are more prevalent among the poor than any other wealth group.
  - sdrothrock 10y ago
    The initial discussion was about "poor people," not "criminals" or even "criminals among the poor." To enter that discussion with a focus on the symptoms of the minority to apply them to the state of the majority is disingenuous.
RodericDay 10y ago
Every single time a post about poverty and inequality comes up, like clockwork, you're defending the status quo, greed, the american system, etc. Is there any place you expound on your views in more detail? I think I'd like to mount a more formal, less piecemeal rebuttal to your worldview, if I can.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I've been considering writing a blog post on the topic. However, I don't think I'm arguing as much as you think I am. I'm not arguing for a status quo, greed or the American system. I'm merely arguing that certain behaviors seem to be extremely common among the (American) poor and that these behaviors also have a direct causal relationship with being poor. This is my major claim - do you disagree with this?
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    No, but I find it strange to stop there, and find satisfaction in blaming it on 'poverty'. Okay, poor people do things that keep them poor. You may call it a "poverty cycle". Where to go from there? A lot of people reach out for race and genetics pretty quickly. I don't think this holds. What else is there? Economic policy, surely.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      As I said in my reply to gjm11: Adriand discussed whether "anyone can go from "rags to riches"" and declared this "myth busted" based on the fact that most people don't. The only way the latter could imply the former is if all of them attempted to, but simply were unable to do so. That's the sole point being made in the comment you replied to. There are behaviors people can engage in to stop being poor, they simply don't. I'm not allergic to genetic explanations, but I also believe that economic policy can affect behavior. I favor economic policies that will put the poor back to work and get them to stop engaging in these destructive behaviors. (For example, I favor replacing welfare/disability fraud/etc with a Basic Job - like a basic income, but only given to people who work for it.)

timr 10y ago

" We cannot rule out the possibility that actual mobility is low because people at the bottom choose not to engage in behaviors that would help them rise." Actually, your statement is such a common (and cruel) myth that there's a there's a whole episode in the series debunking it. You should listen to it. http://www.wnyc.org/story/who-deserves-to-be-poor/ http://www.wnyc.org/story/who-deserves-to-be-poor/

yummyfajitas 10y ago
No, it's you who is spreading myths. The poor choose not to work: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/working-poor/archive/a-profile-of-the-working-poor-2013.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/working-poor/archive/a-prof... http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... Single motherhood is strongly correlated with poverty: http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm The poor commit lots of crimes, including crimes with no economic motive (wife beating, rape): https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf The poor also disproportionately do drugs: https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTabs/NSDUH-MHDetTabs2013.pdf https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/2013MHDetTab...
- Retric 10y ago
  There is a lot of bias in these numbers. People who have more money are less likely get fought doing drugs, but they are also able to afford to do more drugs. The risks of doing drugs drop when you do one transaction a month, vs trying to feed a daily or even hourly habit.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Too bad the study authors didn't think of that. If they did, they might have decided to use a survey rather than arrest data. Then they might even have titled the study "RESULTS FROM THE 2013 NATIONAL SURVEY ON DRUG USE AND HEALTH: MENTAL HEALTH DETAILED TABLES". Step 1 in making a methodological critique of a study is to actually read the study.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Yes, because the CEO of IBM is going to say they use drugs. Survey does not mean what you think it means. If you read this they are going to defend the method as a means to track tends but not the actual numbers involved.
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        Unlike last time when you clearly didn't read it, I think that this time you actually read the study and identified a major methodological flaw (in under 11 minutes!!!) that the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration didn't notice at all.
        Retric 10y ago
        No, working with heath data on a regular basis I can tell you that it's not a flaw in the study. It's a flaw in your interpretation of the study. Pill speaking behavior for example is common even amount those who don't consider themselves drug addicts. Surveys are a very useful tool, but because the heath care community and patient don't agree on definitions they don't represent absolute numbers well.

sdrothrock 10y ago

> imagine if the poor simply refuse work that's available (i.e. the kind of jobs that Mexicans do), choose to have children outside of wedlock, do lots of drugs and commit lots of crime, they will likely remain poor. I'm from a relatively poor family (food stamps, free lunches) and have always been a believer in "where there's a will, there's a way," but this comment has a definite bias. You could have put in more "positive" choices that would have been completely realistic. Perhaps they choose to spend more time with their children instead of 100 hours a week in the office or at two or three jobs, or they choose to live in a small town near family despite limited upward growth opportunities. Many people I went to high school with are "poor" because of the latter choice. When you grow up with a local supportive network and everyone helps everyone else out (say, driving someone to work because their car broke down, watching someone else's kids because their mother is sick, passing on hand-me-downs), it's very hard to leave that network -- not only because of the loss of safety, but because of the social aspect of betrayal; leaving the network represents a loss of resources for everyone in the network and can be seen as a selfish behavior. There are more reasons to "stay poor" than "looking down on work, too much sex, drugs, and crime."

someguydave 10y ago
>but this comment has a definite bias. The fact that a majority of poor people are not criminals does not exclude the possibility that that criminals are more prevalent among the poor than any other wealth group.
- sdrothrock 10y ago
  The initial discussion was about "poor people," not "criminals" or even "criminals among the poor." To enter that discussion with a focus on the symptoms of the minority to apply them to the state of the majority is disingenuous.

RodericDay 10y ago

Every single time a post about poverty and inequality comes up, like clockwork, you're defending the status quo, greed, the american system, etc. Is there any place you expound on your views in more detail? I think I'd like to mount a more formal, less piecemeal rebuttal to your worldview, if I can.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I've been considering writing a blog post on the topic. However, I don't think I'm arguing as much as you think I am. I'm not arguing for a status quo, greed or the American system. I'm merely arguing that certain behaviors seem to be extremely common among the (American) poor and that these behaviors also have a direct causal relationship with being poor. This is my major claim - do you disagree with this?
- RodericDay 10y ago
  No, but I find it strange to stop there, and find satisfaction in blaming it on 'poverty'. Okay, poor people do things that keep them poor. You may call it a "poverty cycle". Where to go from there? A lot of people reach out for race and genetics pretty quickly. I don't think this holds. What else is there? Economic policy, surely.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    As I said in my reply to gjm11: Adriand discussed whether "anyone can go from "rags to riches"" and declared this "myth busted" based on the fact that most people don't. The only way the latter could imply the former is if all of them attempted to, but simply were unable to do so. That's the sole point being made in the comment you replied to. There are behaviors people can engage in to stop being poor, they simply don't. I'm not allergic to genetic explanations, but I also believe that economic policy can affect behavior. I favor economic policies that will put the poor back to work and get them to stop engaging in these destructive behaviors. (For example, I favor replacing welfare/disability fraud/etc with a Basic Job - like a basic income, but only given to people who work for it.)