15 ms·

Software developers who started after 35, 40 or 50

398 points by clubminsk 10y ago

gaspoweredcat 10y ago
bottom line, if you can read and type you can do it
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  Eh, that's quite a stretch. I guess people that always were logical thinker can pull it off, while people that were not can't learn it even at 14, 18 or 23.
  - wccrawford 10y ago
    I think it depends on what you're aiming for. If you just want to make Javascript work on some sales page, it's probably enough to just be able to type and spend some time learning. If you want to write the next Facebook, Pokemon Go, or Visual Studio, then no, it's not enough to just be able to type. There's a lot of planning and logic involved in them that isn't obvious to non-programmers and non-logical people just don't have the aptitude for.
  - moonshinefe 10y ago
    it's true, I saw a ton of folks in college who just weren't cut out for programming when trying to get into it. I'd almost venture to say personality and intellectual inclination play a larger role (within reason) versus age.
- danpalmer 10y ago
  I'm afraid I don't have them to hand, but I've read studies that suggest this isn't true. A certain amount of mathematical/analytical competency is required, and it looks like this develops at a relatively early age.
- madengr 10y ago
  Well I can't actually type; still using two fingers. Though that's a childhood habit from the C64.
- segmondy 10y ago
  Everyone on the internet can read & type, that's how they are able to get on. So this is hogwash, however, if you do have enough motivation and willing to work hard, you can learn to program. What level of programmer are you going to be, now that's a whole other discussion.
lebanon_tn 10y ago
Kudos to these people. A lot of the time when I hear people ask "Is it too late to do x" it sounds like they are asking for an excuse to not try. I know for certain older workers will face subtle and not so subtle discrimination which makes it incredibly unfortunate that companies don't focus on it more in their workforce diversity initiatives. Is this a problem companies are less willing to confront? Compared to say, gender and race diversity?
- test1235 10y ago
  I think it's more a question of career feasibility. Learning to dev takes years of making and learning from mistakes. You have to be able to give up whatever job and lifestyle you currently have and take up a junior position for a few years which some people just can't afford to do, what with kids and bills and whatnot. The real question is probably 'how long before I can achieve a decent salary if I start from scratch?'
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    That is an issue with any career switch. And the same question is asked no matter what career switch you make.
    - klibertp 10y ago
      The question may be the same, but it's answers that count. If you're talented and/or motivated enough, you can get from zero to a decent salary in software in a year. Decent developers are rare, hiring practices are mostly wrong, the need for developers is sky high and grows. You may have some trouble getting your first position - lack of degree and experience can be limiting - but that's expected, I think. However, once you get your foot in the door you just need to work there for three to six months and suddenly you'll become hireable by almost anyone. After another half a year you can start getting picky about your offers. I'm not aware of any other industry where you can get good results this quickly (although I'd be thrilled to know if there is one, as I'm starting to feel a bit burnt out) while - on the other hand - in many industries, people work for years on end without a raise, being constantly threatened by lay-offs and so on. I think software devs are playing the game of life in the "easy" (or even debug) mode and that it's going to stay that way until around general-purpose AI. The only thing I fear is that I won't be retired before that happens, but that's still (I hope!) a bit far off in the future.
skookumchuck 10y ago
Anyone can contribute to open source projects, or start their own. On the internet, nobody needs to know you're a dog.
Veen 10y ago
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it would also be useful (probably more useful) to see stories of older people who have tried and failed to become developers. It's nice to see the success stories but I'm always wary of survivorship bias. If there are ten people who couldn't make a go of it for every one of these stories, it puts a different view on things. (I say this as a 37 year old freelance writer currently learning Elixir and React in the hope of shifting careers.)
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > Elixir Interesting pick for a first language.
  - Veen 10y ago
    It's not my first exactly. I'm pretty handy with Python, and I've played around with various other languages. I chose Elixir because the functional paradigm gels better with how I think than OO languages. Elixir, with Phoenix, alongside React and React Native seem like a good fit for what I want to do: build sustainable small-scale web apps. Pinboard is a motivating factor for the sort of business I'd like to build.
    - andy_ppp 10y ago
      I too have learned Elixir and am interested in these sort of small scale Internet businesses. If you want to chat about ideas and do a regular office hours style meeting that would be cool. My theory is that just doing the office hours each week will focus minds and help us to clarify the most important things we should be working on.
- greenmana 10y ago
  Same probably goes for younger people as well, though. The difference being that most people pick the career paths they stay on in their 20's. I've seen many drop out of computer science curriculums and gone to become a carpenter or whatever. Promoting the possibility for change later in life is a wonderful thing and societies should encourage and make that possible. Nobody should feel trapped in their past, but obviously they still need to put in the work. Edit: Not to mention the amount of people who apply to universities and never get accepted. There's plenty of room for failure and pessimism if someone wants to take that angle, and someone is always left out of something, no matter how hard they work. That's also why society should enable an equal springboard for everyone. I want the best and brightest to become the doctors and scientists of the future. Not the ones who had the most leisure time in their hands to be able to study and get accepted to programs.
omginternets 10y ago
This seems to conflate "you can become a dev" with "you can be hired as a dev" after the age of 35, 40 or 50. This isn't to say it's not worth becoming a dev at a later age -- coding is an increasingly crucial skill for entrepreneurs -- but it seems cruel to entertain the myth that older devs get hired by the handful.
- smackay 10y ago
  Getting a product out of the door is more a human problem than a technical one. Sure there's the cliche image of the older, embittered dev who is set in there ways and refuses to change but it's just a caricature spread by by young people with no experience and an infinite capacity for working for free. Older devs who can ship are worth their weight in gold.
  - deleted 10y ago
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- moonshinefe 10y ago
  We hired a mid-40s dev recently and he's great, I think a lot of it is contingent on where the person lives and what the demand is. I'm not in my 40s yet but I've found the older the developer, as long as they have a passion for it, the more measured they are and more willing to put their ego to the side and adapt. Maybe they won't keep up to the clip a 20s-30s year old will be with learning new tech, but I think there are both pros and cons between a young person and an older person.
  - deleted 10y ago
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- mod 10y ago
  I'm not sure it did--many of the devs in the examples were hired as devs, if you bothered to read their bios.
barking 10y ago
Might be hard to get a job though. One thing you'll likely have in your favour is knowledge of another domain to a degree that perhaps no other programmer has. Even so you might have to go the start up route and then unless you have strong marketing skills you're unlikely to do well. "Is it just you? What happens if you die?" is a question you'll get over and over.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  "Is it just you? What happens if you die?" is a question you'll get over and over. Never had that question in 20 years.
  - barking 10y ago
    I've had it under any number of guises, some more subtle than others. I have also heard it quoted back to me from existing users to whom I've referred new customers. One time a sale that seemed be in the bag went away when a casual aside revealed that I had a kid in college.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    I'm 50, been programming for >30 years, and never had a client ask me that either, but recently I've found myself asking that a lot of the time. I am at that stage where I know that I cannot work as fast as I did 20 years ago, and that my endurance for all night programming sessions is not like it was. Add to that back and shoulder problems, and degraded eyesight from sitting in front of a monitor for years, and I am thinking about what happens to my clients and my work if I am forced to take a break for health reasons. I've spent time talking to a lawyer (and some of my clients) about putting source code in escrow with them, and letting other family members know where they can find a list of critical logins for all the services I use in my day to day work. Call it a 'work will' if you like, but I want to ensure that if I am not able to do the work anymore, for whatever reason, I want my clients to be looked after.
    - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Lordarminius 10y ago
This is a fantastic article. I decided to learn programming at 38, started at 39, and now at 41 I am in the process of releasing a commercial version of software I created. I moved into this field from medicine, to have greater control over my life, scratch my entrepreneurial itch and broaden my horizons. I have no regrets. You can do it if you really want to, and at any age.
- ionised 10y ago
  May I ask what the software you created was? Doesn't have to specific.
  - Lordarminius 10y ago
    Sure. Simple accounting software for (very)small businesses.They dominate the landscape in my country. It is implemented as SAAS. I will introduce it on Show HN soon. I also plan on starting a news site for Business, Finance and Policy (think a limited sort of 'Bloomberg' for Nigeria and eventually West Africa.) All the local business sites I know suck.
    - jxm262 10y ago
      I wouldn't mind helping out with a news site :) Im also taking a trip to Togo this summer , so could be a good way for me to learn more about what's happening in the region
      - Lordarminius 10y ago
        Not a bad idea. Please shoot me an email.
- jventura 10y ago
  If you can, do a "Show HN". I'm always curious about people that bootstrapped their own projects. I've tried twice, without much success so far..
- 77pt77 10y ago
Entangled 10y ago
I started learning Swift in my fifties and by god am having a blast. Already finished an iPad app for my daughter and there is no better gratification than seeing her playing and learning with it.
- markdown 10y ago
  Did you know how to code (in other languages) before diving into Swift?
  - Entangled 10y ago
    30 other languages but that's irrelevant to the joy of learning something new and applying such knowledge.
soneca 10y ago
That's great that this is getting upvoted at HN. I started studying software development last November, at the age of 37. A few times, in my own and other people's posts stating that we are learning to code, there was more negativity in the comments than I would expect from HN. It is always a mix of: "quit now, it take lots of years to become a developer worth of its name", "don't do it, software development is not the glamorous job you think, it's awful" and "give it up, you just won't be hired for a good job that easily". An impression I often have is that there are developers who have some kind of resentment reaction to the "everyone can/should learn to code". Like new kids sneaking in your own private club. Outsiders trying to be like you. There is only one type of developer: that kid that started to code when he was 12. All others are impostors and wannabes. I'm glad that there is this support sentiment for stories like this as well.
- wccrawford 10y ago
  It does take a number of years to get enough skill to make great money at it. However, if you have an aptitude for it, you can get a low-paying job (still way more than minimum wage) pretty quickly, so I think it's an investment that pays off rather quickly. If you don't have an aptitude for it, well... I dunno that it would ever work out no matter what, so I guess there's not much point in talking about that? But like most things, you have no idea if you have an aptitude for it before you try it. I do recommend that everyone learn to code. I also recommend that they learn to draw, play music, manage people, and many other skills. It'll make you well-rounded and give you a chance to find out what you really like and excel at, and I've found that most skills are useful in ways that you didn't expect, and you'll use them forever.
  - lexandstuff 10y ago
    In my limited experience, you don't need to have an "aptitude" for programming to get good at it. It just requires a lot of time and patience.
    - greenmana 10y ago
      Many are too easy to give up on things on the excuse that they're not talented or have "aptitude", be it programming or playing an instrument etc. Most complicated skills require a lot to develop, and the ones with patience and persistence often do better than those with just more talent.
SuperGent 10y ago
I thought that starting out as a developer at 42 was a bit too old. I felt much better when the new guy I started with admitted he was going to be 50 at the end of the month.
- soneca 10y ago
  How is it going? I would like to know more about other people's choices in a similar situation. I am 37, studying web development (mostly Javascript) for 4 months now. I feel I learned a lot of the language itself, but I'm struggling with other important components of being a good developer, like proper use of git, comments, tests, etc.
  - SuperGent 10y ago
    After 2 years I've just moved jobs, and didn't have a single issue with my age. The other guy is also still working as a developer.
    - soneca 10y ago
      What industry? What languages? If you dont mind me asking
  - hackermailman 10y ago
    All those things are covered in any university 'Software Engineering' course http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/05-version-control/ http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/05-version-control... http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/03-testing/ http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/03-testing/ https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa16/6.170/materials.html https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa16/6.170/materials.html
    - QuantumGravy 10y ago
      "Covered" isn't saying much. When I took my Software Engineering class, those topics amounted to no more than a couple slides each in a lecture. Even if my university's curriculum wasn't a joke, the idea that a single class, typically taken one's senior year, is sufficient for any of the above is laughable. No one I knew or shared a single project with used version control or testing for the duration of my sad education.
dustingetz 10y ago
i thought the argument for agism was that, once you hit around 30 your salary is peaked because it only takes 5-10 years for a college grad to catch up to the state of art. and the counter-argument is that if you are so good you can make high risk projects successful, your salary is bounded by the business value of the project
sonabinu 10y ago
I started later in life, after being a stay at home mom for 10 plus years. I went back to regular school and now I'm working as a Software Engineer. I need to look up more concepts and ask more questions but I'm getting there. It's a long road but one worth walking.
- Lordarminius 10y ago
  > I need to look up more concepts and ask more questions.... More compared to who else? And who is keeping count? I have found that the most important questions you can ever ask are "why/why not?". You can never go wrong with that pair. Keep doing your thing. The only truth is your code. :)
- moonshinefe 10y ago
  Exactly. If you've found some success and a knack for it, that's really what matters especially if you can find job opportunities. Code speaks for itself, regardless of age and other factors. I've seen a lot of unexpected people demographic-wise succeed. It's totally possible.
- psyc 10y ago
  I've been a programmer for 27 years, and I still look things up constantly. Not just API details. Everything. If I was mainly doing things I can do off the top of my head, I would suspect I wasn't doing as much as I could be.
kemonocode 10y ago
I think it's great this article is getting so much attention, considering the huge amount of bias and "ageism" that exists in the field. Just because you can be an entrepreneur before 30 doesn't mean you'll have the life experience to be good at it, and many junior-level software development jobs expect a level of commitment that's unfeasible for people who "have gotten a life".
happy-go-lucky 10y ago
As of now there's no such thing as programming species, natural or genetically engineered. Like any other skill, programming is learnable. One's age should not be a barrier to learning it as long as they enjoy their mental health[1]. Some skills are easy to learn and some are hard and take many years of practice before one can do it with some mastery. We learn skills out of necessity or out of passion, sometimes out of both. Whether we become good at something depends on a number of factors, and obviously there're efficient older workers and incompetent younger workers in every industry, and this dualism applies to programmers as well. A computer is a means to an end. People in disciplines such as biology, mathematics, sociology learn and use programming as a tool to solve their day-to-day work-related problems because it helps boost their productivity. [1] http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs220/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs220/en/
aczerepinski 10y ago
Software - like anything worth mastering - requires many thousands of hours. The only reason I can think of that it would be harder to pick up at an older age is that often the hours are harder to come by due to family commitments and so forth. I went through an intense several year period of studying jazz music beginning around age 16. I remember the discipline it required and the speed at which I was able to progress. When I got into programming at age 33, it felt exactly the same. The discipline, the hours, the speed of progression; all very similar. Having devoted many thousands of hours to mastering a skill in my teenage years and again in my 30s, I'm not aware of any differences in capacity to improve at one age over the other. I attended a boot camp and had ~25 classmates all over the age spectrum. Some were smarter than others, some worked harder than others, but there was no age correlation on either of those observations. I also didn't see any age correlated patterns in success in the job market. Some old and young students got jobs immediately; some old and young students had to fight it out a little longer. If I lose my passion for software at age 40, 50 or 60, I would be very open to pursuing something new at any point in my life.
- kemiller2002 10y ago
  I think you're absolutely right with this. I've never seen age make a difference on someone's ability to learn programming. The only thing I think that young people possible have over older ones is the amount of available time. In general, people in their 30's, 40's, etc. have family commitments that someone in their 20's probably does not (not married, no kids etc.). This is probably what gives them a slight edge, but it has nothing to do with age per se. On the flip side, people who are older are generally more mature also, and realize that if they really want something they have to work for it. Honestly, now that I am almost 40, learning stuff (around programming, math, really anything) is so much easier than it was when I was in my 20's, because I understand the discipline that is required to do it. I'm more efficient at how I spend my time, and I see connections with what I already know making it easier to grasp concepts.
  - aryamaan 10y ago
    What advice you would give to someone in their 20s who often find themselves at loss of motivation or drive.
65827 10y ago
Man, I couldn't imagine that. People stare at me like I'm a martian Elmer Fudd and I'm only 31, really hope to be out of this town by 35.
- softawre 10y ago
  this town = the valley? Some companies have older average ages, just have to know where to look.
hopfog 10y ago
I almost finished a Bachelor in Business and Economics and worked abroad in a completely different field before starting my career as software developer. If you have the interest you will pick up the stuff you need for the job fast. Even though many of my colleagues have been programming since childhood I feel that their growth curve has leveled out compared to mine, at the point that we're on par in some areas.
bradgalina4eva 10y ago
I know a dude who learnt to code when he retired. He's just doing it to keep his brain nimble since it seems brains, like everything else, follow 'use it or lose it'. He's slow but steady. Good on him though for learning PHP, MySQL and jQuery. Not bad for someone in their 70s.
empath75 10y ago
I've dabbled with programming off and on since the 80s, but never really did anything work related until I was 38. I got transferred from the NOC to a sys admin position just as everything here became devops all the time. Really focused on learning python, aws and Jenkins. Now 41 and I just got promoted to being a senior software engineer at a very large tech company. I actually credit hacker news for a lot of it because repeating what I read here makes me seem a lot smarter than I am, I think.
drunkkcunt 10y ago
This was motivating. I'm 25, I started (properly) learning and liking coding about a year ago. Seeing people who are 4-5+ years younger than me with more knowledge and experience is discouraging. It doesn't help than in a job interview I was told "Why should we hire you when there are people younger than you with more experience"
- jrs235 10y ago
  >"Why should we hire you when there are people younger than you with more experience" "I'm not sure why age is relevant or necessary in your question. But thank you for showing your contempt for older people. I'll be excusing myself now. Good luck in finding a candidate and filling your position. I have a blog article to write."
- csorrell 10y ago
  That's a strange thing to say in an interview. If I were hiring a junior developer, I'd favor the applicant who has more life experience and would assume them to be more grounded and reliable than someone in their early 20's.
- ClaytonB 10y ago
  I'm one of the guys in that blog post. I feel incredibly lucky I got a job in this field at my age - my employer was very kind to hire someone in his mid 30s with no professional experience. It worked out for me, and I'm 36. At 25 , you are just getting started in life. You're going to be just fine.
z4chj 10y ago
Really unfortunate that it pitches php development as a way to get started as an older developer. As if an older developer doesn't already feel antiquated and behind, let's make it worse by teaching them an established technology that is not usually the language of choice for companies on the bleeding edge of technology, which i, I imagine, where these people are hoping to be
- cr0sh 10y ago
  I'm not sure that's really a problem; if anything, it might be a smart move. PHP due to its large installed base, might become the legacy software niche similar to COBOL. While the younger generation might not want to touch it, older developers might have no problem with it - provided such opportunities are still available.
LiweiZ 10y ago
Software is the path I chose to achieve many different short/mid term goals for my life. Finding an ok paid job, exploring another form of freedom of mind, the ability to create things I want, guiding/teaching my kids better with deeper understanding and know how of the development of human-control-machine-to-achieve-result (even though I only have a tiny piece of knowledge of it), sensing the new opportunities, etc. While I'm still struggling with the first one, I found the rest are all very well achieved. To all late starters: keep going as long as the resource is available and good luck to all of us. edit: typo and replace "tech" with a more detailed description.
mrwebmaster 10y ago
I started 2 months ago, trying to follow the courses of Edimburgh Software Engineering ( http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/16-17/dpt/utswenm.htm http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/16-17/dpt/utswenm.htm ). At the moment I'm doing Haskell, Linear Algebra and Computational Logic, but I see that everybody just do some courses with a more practical approach (Python, NodeJs, Ruby on Rails, etc.) I have some web development knowledge (manage several drupal sites and have 2 linux servers online) and have some mathematics knowledge (I am economist). Do you think I should also take the fast path? Am I loosing my time by learning maths, logic and Haskell? I'm 36
- lowken10 10y ago
  I've been programming professionally for 15 years (C# & SQL Server) and I've encountered exactly one Algebra problem in my entire career. Now some jobs require the most advanced math on the planet. For example the guys that developer the SQL Server query optimizer and absolute math gods and they have to be. However for 95% (my own made up statistic) of software development jobs advanced math is not a requirement.
jcadam 10y ago
I honestly don't think it matters. You're going to hit a salary ceiling at about the 8-10 year mark no matter when you start. So unless you're already at or near retirement age, it's not too late :) I'm 36, started programming at about age 6 or 7 (thanks largely to my mother being a programmer and helping me learn the basics), and still spend a lot of my free time on personal projects. I actually didn't start programming for a living until age 26 (did a stint in the Army right after college). I haven't had a significant raise in the last 4 years. In fact, I made a higher salary (albeit in a higher COL area) 5 years ago. Early in my career I was getting 20%+ pay bumps just for switching jobs. That doesn't happen anymore. More often than not I have to make my salary expectations clear from the first conversation with a potential employer lest I waste a lot my time only to receive an offer 30% lower than my current salary. It's the point I'm thinking of leaving the field (I'll never stop programming in my free time, though) and finding something else with some actual upward mobility.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  Is making more every year that important? At some point, you reach an asymptote where you're not particularly more valuable than the prior year and then your pay goes up with inflation rather than the 10+% per year that it was going up early in your career (when your value was going up 20+% per year) I'd be curious to hear the field you choose that has better compensation prospects than the salary ceiling for software development, especially if you're going to be doing development in your free time because you love it. Hell, just get paid to develop for your day job and be stuck at "only" a decent 6-figure salary.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Depends where he works. In a lot countries software development is not well paid.
  - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
    Yes, because nobody has a crystal ball that can guarantee them a future where they'll continue to make that kind of money throughout the rest of their careers. Yes, because the business-types who run the world want to see a steady stream of promotions, or else they come to the conclusion that not only are you NOT worthy of more money, but you probably aren't worth what you're currently making. I have friends who were forced to become third party contractors because the only vertical movement for their salaries within the corporate structure required them to become managers, which was an undesirable move for them. So they contracted out to their previous employers instead at more than twice their previous salaries.
dghughes 10y ago
I was expecting to see people like me who try programming every few years (since 1983) but never got into it. My fingers say yes but my brain says no. The people shown in the article were unexpected I think they are even more interesting to jump right into programming from a jobs that you wouldn't expect.
ClaytonB 10y ago
I absolutely feel that it is harder to learn a new career as you get older. You have much less time as an adult than a traditional college student, and my brain doesn't retain things as well as it did 18 years ago. Also, the repercussions for failing to successfully transition into a new career are much more severe for someone approaching 40 than someone in their early 20s. There was significant risks associated with my decision, financial burdens (loans, credit card debt accumulation), and also some opportunity costs of not earning income for over a year. I quit my primary job, leaving me with no safety net. It was scary at my age to do this, but by taking on such huge financial risks I was more even motivated to succeed - to fail would have been devastating.
laythea 10y ago
In my opinion, this question is not answerable because: - it calls into question the individuals motivation and ability to materialise that motivation - this is impossible to measure. - there is no such thing as a "software developer". We write software, this is true; however software is so ingested into society that one software engineer may be performing an entirely different role to another. And different roles naturally demand differing skill sets - this is impossible to specify. So, without meaning to offend, bundling up the entire aged population and asking if they can do a job that is hugely variable is a bit of a non-sense.
makecheck 10y ago
One of the great things about programming compared to many professions is that the requirements to start are pretty low: you need a machine and (realistically) Internet access, and a willingness to search for examples and answers. It doesn’t require you to clear space in your garage, or invest in large equipment, or go anywhere far away, or have a company backing you to acquire the necessary training; you just start. Even better, progress can be realistically made in spare time without necessarily abandoning whatever job got you this far, assuming you aren’t working 90-hour weeks. It is also one of the few disciplines that is included in part-time degrees at some universities. This means you can even be taught radically new things in the field without necessarily giving up your day job.
pklausler 10y ago
I believe that anybody with the aptitude for abstract thought can learn programming and mathematics at any age, and that anybody without the aptitude for abstract thought is never going to become competent at programming or mathematics no matter how early they start or how hard they work at it.
richev 10y ago
Inspiring article, but suffers from confirmation bias.
phodo 10y ago
Being a young engineer may make you marketable. But having deep domain expertise and engineering talent at a later age gives you extraordinary super powers.
JeremyNT 10y ago
I'm nearly 40 and just started my first software development job. In my case, I already knew Python and Ruby from working in ops, so it wasn't completely new to me as was the case for the people in the article. What is new to me is having larger programming tasks that require focus and teamwork. The nature of ops tends to involve a lot of context switching and as a result most of my projects were small and self contained. Learning how to collaborate with others on the same code base is a big adjustment. I am also incredibly impressed with how patient my colleagues are. I know "how to code" broadly, but that's not the same thing as "how to be a software developer." I'm fortunate enough to have the opportunity to learn as I go.

398 points by clubminsk 10y ago

gaspoweredcat 10y ago

bottom line, if you can read and type you can do it

LoSboccacc 10y ago
Eh, that's quite a stretch. I guess people that always were logical thinker can pull it off, while people that were not can't learn it even at 14, 18 or 23.
- wccrawford 10y ago
  I think it depends on what you're aiming for. If you just want to make Javascript work on some sales page, it's probably enough to just be able to type and spend some time learning. If you want to write the next Facebook, Pokemon Go, or Visual Studio, then no, it's not enough to just be able to type. There's a lot of planning and logic involved in them that isn't obvious to non-programmers and non-logical people just don't have the aptitude for.
- moonshinefe 10y ago
  it's true, I saw a ton of folks in college who just weren't cut out for programming when trying to get into it. I'd almost venture to say personality and intellectual inclination play a larger role (within reason) versus age.
danpalmer 10y ago
I'm afraid I don't have them to hand, but I've read studies that suggest this isn't true. A certain amount of mathematical/analytical competency is required, and it looks like this develops at a relatively early age.
madengr 10y ago
Well I can't actually type; still using two fingers. Though that's a childhood habit from the C64.
segmondy 10y ago
Everyone on the internet can read & type, that's how they are able to get on. So this is hogwash, however, if you do have enough motivation and willing to work hard, you can learn to program. What level of programmer are you going to be, now that's a whole other discussion.

lebanon_tn 10y ago

Kudos to these people. A lot of the time when I hear people ask "Is it too late to do x" it sounds like they are asking for an excuse to not try. I know for certain older workers will face subtle and not so subtle discrimination which makes it incredibly unfortunate that companies don't focus on it more in their workforce diversity initiatives. Is this a problem companies are less willing to confront? Compared to say, gender and race diversity?

test1235 10y ago
I think it's more a question of career feasibility. Learning to dev takes years of making and learning from mistakes. You have to be able to give up whatever job and lifestyle you currently have and take up a junior position for a few years which some people just can't afford to do, what with kids and bills and whatnot. The real question is probably 'how long before I can achieve a decent salary if I start from scratch?'
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  That is an issue with any career switch. And the same question is asked no matter what career switch you make.
  - klibertp 10y ago
    The question may be the same, but it's answers that count. If you're talented and/or motivated enough, you can get from zero to a decent salary in software in a year. Decent developers are rare, hiring practices are mostly wrong, the need for developers is sky high and grows. You may have some trouble getting your first position - lack of degree and experience can be limiting - but that's expected, I think. However, once you get your foot in the door you just need to work there for three to six months and suddenly you'll become hireable by almost anyone. After another half a year you can start getting picky about your offers. I'm not aware of any other industry where you can get good results this quickly (although I'd be thrilled to know if there is one, as I'm starting to feel a bit burnt out) while - on the other hand - in many industries, people work for years on end without a raise, being constantly threatened by lay-offs and so on. I think software devs are playing the game of life in the "easy" (or even debug) mode and that it's going to stay that way until around general-purpose AI. The only thing I fear is that I won't be retired before that happens, but that's still (I hope!) a bit far off in the future.

skookumchuck 10y ago

Anyone can contribute to open source projects, or start their own. On the internet, nobody needs to know you're a dog.

Veen 10y ago

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it would also be useful (probably more useful) to see stories of older people who have tried and failed to become developers. It's nice to see the success stories but I'm always wary of survivorship bias. If there are ten people who couldn't make a go of it for every one of these stories, it puts a different view on things. (I say this as a 37 year old freelance writer currently learning Elixir and React in the hope of shifting careers.)

jacquesm 10y ago
> Elixir Interesting pick for a first language.
- Veen 10y ago
  It's not my first exactly. I'm pretty handy with Python, and I've played around with various other languages. I chose Elixir because the functional paradigm gels better with how I think than OO languages. Elixir, with Phoenix, alongside React and React Native seem like a good fit for what I want to do: build sustainable small-scale web apps. Pinboard is a motivating factor for the sort of business I'd like to build.
  - andy_ppp 10y ago
    I too have learned Elixir and am interested in these sort of small scale Internet businesses. If you want to chat about ideas and do a regular office hours style meeting that would be cool. My theory is that just doing the office hours each week will focus minds and help us to clarify the most important things we should be working on.
greenmana 10y ago
Same probably goes for younger people as well, though. The difference being that most people pick the career paths they stay on in their 20's. I've seen many drop out of computer science curriculums and gone to become a carpenter or whatever. Promoting the possibility for change later in life is a wonderful thing and societies should encourage and make that possible. Nobody should feel trapped in their past, but obviously they still need to put in the work. Edit: Not to mention the amount of people who apply to universities and never get accepted. There's plenty of room for failure and pessimism if someone wants to take that angle, and someone is always left out of something, no matter how hard they work. That's also why society should enable an equal springboard for everyone. I want the best and brightest to become the doctors and scientists of the future. Not the ones who had the most leisure time in their hands to be able to study and get accepted to programs.

omginternets 10y ago

This seems to conflate "you can become a dev" with "you can be hired as a dev" after the age of 35, 40 or 50. This isn't to say it's not worth becoming a dev at a later age -- coding is an increasingly crucial skill for entrepreneurs -- but it seems cruel to entertain the myth that older devs get hired by the handful.

smackay 10y ago
Getting a product out of the door is more a human problem than a technical one. Sure there's the cliche image of the older, embittered dev who is set in there ways and refuses to change but it's just a caricature spread by by young people with no experience and an infinite capacity for working for free. Older devs who can ship are worth their weight in gold.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
moonshinefe 10y ago
We hired a mid-40s dev recently and he's great, I think a lot of it is contingent on where the person lives and what the demand is. I'm not in my 40s yet but I've found the older the developer, as long as they have a passion for it, the more measured they are and more willing to put their ego to the side and adapt. Maybe they won't keep up to the clip a 20s-30s year old will be with learning new tech, but I think there are both pros and cons between a young person and an older person.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
mod 10y ago
I'm not sure it did--many of the devs in the examples were hired as devs, if you bothered to read their bios.

barking 10y ago

Might be hard to get a job though. One thing you'll likely have in your favour is knowledge of another domain to a degree that perhaps no other programmer has. Even so you might have to go the start up route and then unless you have strong marketing skills you're unlikely to do well. "Is it just you? What happens if you die?" is a question you'll get over and over.

tonyedgecombe 10y ago
"Is it just you? What happens if you die?" is a question you'll get over and over. Never had that question in 20 years.
- barking 10y ago
  I've had it under any number of guises, some more subtle than others. I have also heard it quoted back to me from existing users to whom I've referred new customers. One time a sale that seemed be in the bag went away when a casual aside revealed that I had a kid in college.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  I'm 50, been programming for >30 years, and never had a client ask me that either, but recently I've found myself asking that a lot of the time. I am at that stage where I know that I cannot work as fast as I did 20 years ago, and that my endurance for all night programming sessions is not like it was. Add to that back and shoulder problems, and degraded eyesight from sitting in front of a monitor for years, and I am thinking about what happens to my clients and my work if I am forced to take a break for health reasons. I've spent time talking to a lawyer (and some of my clients) about putting source code in escrow with them, and letting other family members know where they can find a list of critical logins for all the services I use in my day to day work. Call it a 'work will' if you like, but I want to ensure that if I am not able to do the work anymore, for whatever reason, I want my clients to be looked after.
  - JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Lordarminius 10y ago

This is a fantastic article. I decided to learn programming at 38, started at 39, and now at 41 I am in the process of releasing a commercial version of software I created. I moved into this field from medicine, to have greater control over my life, scratch my entrepreneurial itch and broaden my horizons. I have no regrets. You can do it if you really want to, and at any age.

ionised 10y ago
May I ask what the software you created was? Doesn't have to specific.
- Lordarminius 10y ago
  Sure. Simple accounting software for (very)small businesses.They dominate the landscape in my country. It is implemented as SAAS. I will introduce it on Show HN soon. I also plan on starting a news site for Business, Finance and Policy (think a limited sort of 'Bloomberg' for Nigeria and eventually West Africa.) All the local business sites I know suck.
  - jxm262 10y ago
    I wouldn't mind helping out with a news site :) Im also taking a trip to Togo this summer , so could be a good way for me to learn more about what's happening in the region
    - Lordarminius 10y ago
      Not a bad idea. Please shoot me an email.
jventura 10y ago
If you can, do a "Show HN". I'm always curious about people that bootstrapped their own projects. I've tried twice, without much success so far..
77pt77 10y ago

Entangled 10y ago

I started learning Swift in my fifties and by god am having a blast. Already finished an iPad app for my daughter and there is no better gratification than seeing her playing and learning with it.

markdown 10y ago
Did you know how to code (in other languages) before diving into Swift?
- Entangled 10y ago
  30 other languages but that's irrelevant to the joy of learning something new and applying such knowledge.

soneca 10y ago

That's great that this is getting upvoted at HN. I started studying software development last November, at the age of 37. A few times, in my own and other people's posts stating that we are learning to code, there was more negativity in the comments than I would expect from HN. It is always a mix of: "quit now, it take lots of years to become a developer worth of its name", "don't do it, software development is not the glamorous job you think, it's awful" and "give it up, you just won't be hired for a good job that easily". An impression I often have is that there are developers who have some kind of resentment reaction to the "everyone can/should learn to code". Like new kids sneaking in your own private club. Outsiders trying to be like you. There is only one type of developer: that kid that started to code when he was 12. All others are impostors and wannabes. I'm glad that there is this support sentiment for stories like this as well.

wccrawford 10y ago
It does take a number of years to get enough skill to make great money at it. However, if you have an aptitude for it, you can get a low-paying job (still way more than minimum wage) pretty quickly, so I think it's an investment that pays off rather quickly. If you don't have an aptitude for it, well... I dunno that it would ever work out no matter what, so I guess there's not much point in talking about that? But like most things, you have no idea if you have an aptitude for it before you try it. I do recommend that everyone learn to code. I also recommend that they learn to draw, play music, manage people, and many other skills. It'll make you well-rounded and give you a chance to find out what you really like and excel at, and I've found that most skills are useful in ways that you didn't expect, and you'll use them forever.
- lexandstuff 10y ago
  In my limited experience, you don't need to have an "aptitude" for programming to get good at it. It just requires a lot of time and patience.
  - greenmana 10y ago
    Many are too easy to give up on things on the excuse that they're not talented or have "aptitude", be it programming or playing an instrument etc. Most complicated skills require a lot to develop, and the ones with patience and persistence often do better than those with just more talent.

SuperGent 10y ago

I thought that starting out as a developer at 42 was a bit too old. I felt much better when the new guy I started with admitted he was going to be 50 at the end of the month.

soneca 10y ago
How is it going? I would like to know more about other people's choices in a similar situation. I am 37, studying web development (mostly Javascript) for 4 months now. I feel I learned a lot of the language itself, but I'm struggling with other important components of being a good developer, like proper use of git, comments, tests, etc.
- SuperGent 10y ago
  After 2 years I've just moved jobs, and didn't have a single issue with my age. The other guy is also still working as a developer.
  - soneca 10y ago
    What industry? What languages? If you dont mind me asking
- hackermailman 10y ago
  All those things are covered in any university 'Software Engineering' course http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/05-version-control/ http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/05-version-control... http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/03-testing/ http://web.mit.edu/6.031/www/sp17/classes/03-testing/ https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa16/6.170/materials.html https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa16/6.170/materials.html
  - QuantumGravy 10y ago
    "Covered" isn't saying much. When I took my Software Engineering class, those topics amounted to no more than a couple slides each in a lecture. Even if my university's curriculum wasn't a joke, the idea that a single class, typically taken one's senior year, is sufficient for any of the above is laughable. No one I knew or shared a single project with used version control or testing for the duration of my sad education.

dustingetz 10y ago

i thought the argument for agism was that, once you hit around 30 your salary is peaked because it only takes 5-10 years for a college grad to catch up to the state of art. and the counter-argument is that if you are so good you can make high risk projects successful, your salary is bounded by the business value of the project

sonabinu 10y ago

I started later in life, after being a stay at home mom for 10 plus years. I went back to regular school and now I'm working as a Software Engineer. I need to look up more concepts and ask more questions but I'm getting there. It's a long road but one worth walking.

Lordarminius 10y ago
> I need to look up more concepts and ask more questions.... More compared to who else? And who is keeping count? I have found that the most important questions you can ever ask are "why/why not?". You can never go wrong with that pair. Keep doing your thing. The only truth is your code. :)
moonshinefe 10y ago
Exactly. If you've found some success and a knack for it, that's really what matters especially if you can find job opportunities. Code speaks for itself, regardless of age and other factors. I've seen a lot of unexpected people demographic-wise succeed. It's totally possible.
psyc 10y ago
I've been a programmer for 27 years, and I still look things up constantly. Not just API details. Everything. If I was mainly doing things I can do off the top of my head, I would suspect I wasn't doing as much as I could be.

kemonocode 10y ago

I think it's great this article is getting so much attention, considering the huge amount of bias and "ageism" that exists in the field. Just because you can be an entrepreneur before 30 doesn't mean you'll have the life experience to be good at it, and many junior-level software development jobs expect a level of commitment that's unfeasible for people who "have gotten a life".

happy-go-lucky 10y ago

As of now there's no such thing as programming species, natural or genetically engineered. Like any other skill, programming is learnable. One's age should not be a barrier to learning it as long as they enjoy their mental health[1]. Some skills are easy to learn and some are hard and take many years of practice before one can do it with some mastery. We learn skills out of necessity or out of passion, sometimes out of both. Whether we become good at something depends on a number of factors, and obviously there're efficient older workers and incompetent younger workers in every industry, and this dualism applies to programmers as well. A computer is a means to an end. People in disciplines such as biology, mathematics, sociology learn and use programming as a tool to solve their day-to-day work-related problems because it helps boost their productivity. [1] http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs220/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs220/en/

aczerepinski 10y ago

Software - like anything worth mastering - requires many thousands of hours. The only reason I can think of that it would be harder to pick up at an older age is that often the hours are harder to come by due to family commitments and so forth. I went through an intense several year period of studying jazz music beginning around age 16. I remember the discipline it required and the speed at which I was able to progress. When I got into programming at age 33, it felt exactly the same. The discipline, the hours, the speed of progression; all very similar. Having devoted many thousands of hours to mastering a skill in my teenage years and again in my 30s, I'm not aware of any differences in capacity to improve at one age over the other. I attended a boot camp and had ~25 classmates all over the age spectrum. Some were smarter than others, some worked harder than others, but there was no age correlation on either of those observations. I also didn't see any age correlated patterns in success in the job market. Some old and young students got jobs immediately; some old and young students had to fight it out a little longer. If I lose my passion for software at age 40, 50 or 60, I would be very open to pursuing something new at any point in my life.

kemiller2002 10y ago
I think you're absolutely right with this. I've never seen age make a difference on someone's ability to learn programming. The only thing I think that young people possible have over older ones is the amount of available time. In general, people in their 30's, 40's, etc. have family commitments that someone in their 20's probably does not (not married, no kids etc.). This is probably what gives them a slight edge, but it has nothing to do with age per se. On the flip side, people who are older are generally more mature also, and realize that if they really want something they have to work for it. Honestly, now that I am almost 40, learning stuff (around programming, math, really anything) is so much easier than it was when I was in my 20's, because I understand the discipline that is required to do it. I'm more efficient at how I spend my time, and I see connections with what I already know making it easier to grasp concepts.
- aryamaan 10y ago
  What advice you would give to someone in their 20s who often find themselves at loss of motivation or drive.

65827 10y ago

Man, I couldn't imagine that. People stare at me like I'm a martian Elmer Fudd and I'm only 31, really hope to be out of this town by 35.

softawre 10y ago
this town = the valley? Some companies have older average ages, just have to know where to look.

hopfog 10y ago

I almost finished a Bachelor in Business and Economics and worked abroad in a completely different field before starting my career as software developer. If you have the interest you will pick up the stuff you need for the job fast. Even though many of my colleagues have been programming since childhood I feel that their growth curve has leveled out compared to mine, at the point that we're on par in some areas.

bradgalina4eva 10y ago

I know a dude who learnt to code when he retired. He's just doing it to keep his brain nimble since it seems brains, like everything else, follow 'use it or lose it'. He's slow but steady. Good on him though for learning PHP, MySQL and jQuery. Not bad for someone in their 70s.

empath75 10y ago

I've dabbled with programming off and on since the 80s, but never really did anything work related until I was 38. I got transferred from the NOC to a sys admin position just as everything here became devops all the time. Really focused on learning python, aws and Jenkins. Now 41 and I just got promoted to being a senior software engineer at a very large tech company. I actually credit hacker news for a lot of it because repeating what I read here makes me seem a lot smarter than I am, I think.

drunkkcunt 10y ago

This was motivating. I'm 25, I started (properly) learning and liking coding about a year ago. Seeing people who are 4-5+ years younger than me with more knowledge and experience is discouraging. It doesn't help than in a job interview I was told "Why should we hire you when there are people younger than you with more experience"

jrs235 10y ago
>"Why should we hire you when there are people younger than you with more experience" "I'm not sure why age is relevant or necessary in your question. But thank you for showing your contempt for older people. I'll be excusing myself now. Good luck in finding a candidate and filling your position. I have a blog article to write."
csorrell 10y ago
That's a strange thing to say in an interview. If I were hiring a junior developer, I'd favor the applicant who has more life experience and would assume them to be more grounded and reliable than someone in their early 20's.
ClaytonB 10y ago
I'm one of the guys in that blog post. I feel incredibly lucky I got a job in this field at my age - my employer was very kind to hire someone in his mid 30s with no professional experience. It worked out for me, and I'm 36. At 25 , you are just getting started in life. You're going to be just fine.

z4chj 10y ago

Really unfortunate that it pitches php development as a way to get started as an older developer. As if an older developer doesn't already feel antiquated and behind, let's make it worse by teaching them an established technology that is not usually the language of choice for companies on the bleeding edge of technology, which i, I imagine, where these people are hoping to be

cr0sh 10y ago
I'm not sure that's really a problem; if anything, it might be a smart move. PHP due to its large installed base, might become the legacy software niche similar to COBOL. While the younger generation might not want to touch it, older developers might have no problem with it - provided such opportunities are still available.

LiweiZ 10y ago

Software is the path I chose to achieve many different short/mid term goals for my life. Finding an ok paid job, exploring another form of freedom of mind, the ability to create things I want, guiding/teaching my kids better with deeper understanding and know how of the development of human-control-machine-to-achieve-result (even though I only have a tiny piece of knowledge of it), sensing the new opportunities, etc. While I'm still struggling with the first one, I found the rest are all very well achieved. To all late starters: keep going as long as the resource is available and good luck to all of us. edit: typo and replace "tech" with a more detailed description.

mrwebmaster 10y ago

I started 2 months ago, trying to follow the courses of Edimburgh Software Engineering ( http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/16-17/dpt/utswenm.htm http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/16-17/dpt/utswenm.htm ). At the moment I'm doing Haskell, Linear Algebra and Computational Logic, but I see that everybody just do some courses with a more practical approach (Python, NodeJs, Ruby on Rails, etc.) I have some web development knowledge (manage several drupal sites and have 2 linux servers online) and have some mathematics knowledge (I am economist). Do you think I should also take the fast path? Am I loosing my time by learning maths, logic and Haskell? I'm 36

lowken10 10y ago
I've been programming professionally for 15 years (C# & SQL Server) and I've encountered exactly one Algebra problem in my entire career. Now some jobs require the most advanced math on the planet. For example the guys that developer the SQL Server query optimizer and absolute math gods and they have to be. However for 95% (my own made up statistic) of software development jobs advanced math is not a requirement.

jcadam 10y ago

I honestly don't think it matters. You're going to hit a salary ceiling at about the 8-10 year mark no matter when you start. So unless you're already at or near retirement age, it's not too late :) I'm 36, started programming at about age 6 or 7 (thanks largely to my mother being a programmer and helping me learn the basics), and still spend a lot of my free time on personal projects. I actually didn't start programming for a living until age 26 (did a stint in the Army right after college). I haven't had a significant raise in the last 4 years. In fact, I made a higher salary (albeit in a higher COL area) 5 years ago. Early in my career I was getting 20%+ pay bumps just for switching jobs. That doesn't happen anymore. More often than not I have to make my salary expectations clear from the first conversation with a potential employer lest I waste a lot my time only to receive an offer 30% lower than my current salary. It's the point I'm thinking of leaving the field (I'll never stop programming in my free time, though) and finding something else with some actual upward mobility.

sokoloff 10y ago
Is making more every year that important? At some point, you reach an asymptote where you're not particularly more valuable than the prior year and then your pay goes up with inflation rather than the 10+% per year that it was going up early in your career (when your value was going up 20+% per year) I'd be curious to hear the field you choose that has better compensation prospects than the salary ceiling for software development, especially if you're going to be doing development in your free time because you love it. Hell, just get paid to develop for your day job and be stuck at "only" a decent 6-figure salary.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  Depends where he works. In a lot countries software development is not well paid.
- MisterBastahrd 10y ago
  Yes, because nobody has a crystal ball that can guarantee them a future where they'll continue to make that kind of money throughout the rest of their careers. Yes, because the business-types who run the world want to see a steady stream of promotions, or else they come to the conclusion that not only are you NOT worthy of more money, but you probably aren't worth what you're currently making. I have friends who were forced to become third party contractors because the only vertical movement for their salaries within the corporate structure required them to become managers, which was an undesirable move for them. So they contracted out to their previous employers instead at more than twice their previous salaries.

dghughes 10y ago

I was expecting to see people like me who try programming every few years (since 1983) but never got into it. My fingers say yes but my brain says no. The people shown in the article were unexpected I think they are even more interesting to jump right into programming from a jobs that you wouldn't expect.

ClaytonB 10y ago

I absolutely feel that it is harder to learn a new career as you get older. You have much less time as an adult than a traditional college student, and my brain doesn't retain things as well as it did 18 years ago. Also, the repercussions for failing to successfully transition into a new career are much more severe for someone approaching 40 than someone in their early 20s. There was significant risks associated with my decision, financial burdens (loans, credit card debt accumulation), and also some opportunity costs of not earning income for over a year. I quit my primary job, leaving me with no safety net. It was scary at my age to do this, but by taking on such huge financial risks I was more even motivated to succeed - to fail would have been devastating.

laythea 10y ago

In my opinion, this question is not answerable because: - it calls into question the individuals motivation and ability to materialise that motivation - this is impossible to measure. - there is no such thing as a "software developer". We write software, this is true; however software is so ingested into society that one software engineer may be performing an entirely different role to another. And different roles naturally demand differing skill sets - this is impossible to specify. So, without meaning to offend, bundling up the entire aged population and asking if they can do a job that is hugely variable is a bit of a non-sense.

makecheck 10y ago

One of the great things about programming compared to many professions is that the requirements to start are pretty low: you need a machine and (realistically) Internet access, and a willingness to search for examples and answers. It doesn’t require you to clear space in your garage, or invest in large equipment, or go anywhere far away, or have a company backing you to acquire the necessary training; you just start. Even better, progress can be realistically made in spare time without necessarily abandoning whatever job got you this far, assuming you aren’t working 90-hour weeks. It is also one of the few disciplines that is included in part-time degrees at some universities. This means you can even be taught radically new things in the field without necessarily giving up your day job.

pklausler 10y ago

I believe that anybody with the aptitude for abstract thought can learn programming and mathematics at any age, and that anybody without the aptitude for abstract thought is never going to become competent at programming or mathematics no matter how early they start or how hard they work at it.

richev 10y ago

Inspiring article, but suffers from confirmation bias.

phodo 10y ago

Being a young engineer may make you marketable. But having deep domain expertise and engineering talent at a later age gives you extraordinary super powers.

JeremyNT 10y ago

I'm nearly 40 and just started my first software development job. In my case, I already knew Python and Ruby from working in ops, so it wasn't completely new to me as was the case for the people in the article. What is new to me is having larger programming tasks that require focus and teamwork. The nature of ops tends to involve a lot of context switching and as a result most of my projects were small and self contained. Learning how to collaborate with others on the same code base is a big adjustment. I am also incredibly impressed with how patient my colleagues are. I know "how to code" broadly, but that's not the same thing as "how to be a software developer." I'm fortunate enough to have the opportunity to learn as I go.