19 ms·

Autism detectable in brain long before symptoms appear

181 points by sndean 10y ago

sndean 10y ago
Here's a link to the paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/full/nature21369.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/full/nature2... http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/pdf/nature21369.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/pdf/nature21... And the IBIS Network who drove the study: http://www.ibis-network.org/ http://www.ibis-network.org/
monocasa 10y ago
Thank god, maybe this'll slow down the whole "vaccines cause autism" BS. A huge part of that was that symptoms started to show after a big vaccine dose you get around 2 years old.
- Retr0spectrum 10y ago
  It's already been thoroughly debunked, no ammount of additional logic will sway the people who still think vaccines cause autism. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" ~ Jonathan Swift (paraphrased)
  - bryanrasmussen 10y ago
    that really doesn't sound like Swift - are you sure that's an accurate quote?
    - Retr0spectrum 10y ago
      I actually skimmed this article before posting, it seems to conclude that it's from Swift (or at least, a rewording of something he said originally): http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/ http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/
      - graeme 10y ago
        The article says swift's original was this: "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired" Which does sound like Swift. The rewrite doesn't, and attributing it to him in that form is misleading.
        Retr0spectrum 10y ago
        I agree, but how else should I attribute it? That particular variation just came off the top of my head.
        graeme 10y ago
        Hmm, very good question. I don't really know. I wouldn't expect you to memorize the Swift original. I searched "How to attribute a fake quote" and nothing useful came up. Maybe: "– Apocryphal quote incorrectly attributed to Jonathan Swift" But that's not very satisfying, or short.
        stormbrew 10y ago
        Apocryphal and incorrectly attributed to make it sound like he never even said something with that sense. The two quotes are more than alike enough in sentiment to attribute the idea to him, if not the exact words. In which case, "Jonathan Swift once said something like...."
        kolinko 10y ago
        Or just "Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)"
        Retr0spectrum 10y ago
        Good suggestion, I just edited my original comment.
        breischl 10y ago
        The construction to paraphrase Jonathan Swift, "quote goes here" is similar, but arguably a bit more readable.
- deleted 10y ago
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- rosser 10y ago
  The anti-vax crowd has an identity-level stake in that narrative. Facts that counter that narrative are taken merely as an attack on their selfhood at that point, just like any other identity-level investment in a belief, be it Democrat, Christian, American, or anything else.
  - Spellman 10y ago
    If their entire feed is overwhelmed, eventually people change their mind. At least 30-40% of the feed in one study. source: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/02/11/yanss-095-how-to-fight-back-against-the-backfire-effect/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/02/11/yanss-095-how-to-fig... paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2010.00772.x/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2010.... Trouble is in today's world, you get to filter your data sources to things that you already believe in.
- prakashrj 10y ago
  Check Vaccination schedule. 1st dose of MMR is given between 12 and 15 months. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc... Unless you regress into severe Autism, it's very difficult for parents or even doctors to recognize Autism until they are atleast 2 years. Also according to the schedule, there is no big dose around 2 years. After 18 months, there are not many doses on schedule until children are again 4 years. Most parents complain about MMR vaccination that is scheduled at 15 months. My son regressed into Autism after MMR. It is true. I hope the world realizes it before more children get effected.
  - iak8god 10y ago
    First things first: sorry about your son's autism. > My son regressed into Autism after MMR. It is true. I hope the world realizes it before more children get effected. "The world" does not dispute that your son started showing signs of autism right after getting the MMR vaccine. Since there is no scientific causal explanation, and since study after study after study have shown that children who get the MMR vaccine do not develop autism at higher rates than those who did not get the vaccine, the best explanation is that the timing of the onset of your son's condition is a coincidence. I understand why parents dealing with their own personal sample size of one jump to that conclusion, but the link is just not there.
    - pdx 10y ago
      > the link is just not there. Watch the 'Vaxxed' documentary [1] about a CDC whistleblower who tells exactly WHY "the link is just not there". [1] http://1337x.to/torrent/1789192/Vaxxed-From-Cover-Up-To-Catastrophe-2016-LiMiTED-DVDRip-x264-LPD/ http://1337x.to/torrent/1789192/Vaxxed-From-Cover-Up-To-Cata...
      - iak8god 10y ago
        Respectfully, saying "just watch this 90 minute film" is not a very worthwhile contribution to the discussion. I gather from summaries I've just now seen that this film claims there is a global conspiracy to suppress the truth. If you're interested in reality, you can start reading about all the many reasons Wakefield has been discredited here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
airesQ 10y ago
It seems that we have deep learning applied to MRI: A deep-learning algorithm that primarily uses surface area information from magnetic resonance imaging of the brain of 6–12-month-old individuals predicted the diagnosis of autism in individual high-risk children at 24 months (with a positive predictive value of 81% and a sensitivity of 88%).
- hive_mind 10y ago
  What puts a child at high-risk for Autism?
  - AlphaWeaver 10y ago
    I would assume things like Genetics, history in the family, etc.
  - ClassyJacket 10y ago
    I'm not sure if this is what they meant, but older parents have a higher risk of having autistic children http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v21/n5/full/mp201570a.html http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v21/n5/full/mp201570a.html
  - Spellman 10y ago
    Recommended watching on causes of Autism: https://www.ted.com/talks/wendy_chung_autism_what_we_know_and_what_we_don_t_know_yet https://www.ted.com/talks/wendy_chung_autism_what_we_know_an... 3 major factors that are highly correlated: 1) Using a particular drug 2) Age of father 3) Being male Majority is genetics though, so if the two parents are both highly intelligent and/or on the spectrum, good chances the child will be as well. Autism is principally caused by the brain neurons developing too quickly during development, and then not reaching the same levels in fully developed adults. One theory thrown around is it's the rapid neuron development, so having intelligent parents means you have a chance of overshooting the threshold of "safe" development resulting in Autism. I presume this study has better, more-up-to-date metrics though.
    - 10y ago
Someone1234 10y ago
This is definitely interesting, scientifically, and may help us better understand Autism (and its causes). I cannot imagine this will see widespread adoption outside of research. MRI scans remain expensive and many MRIs have waiting lists at hospitals. Even today, they regularly use less safe technology (e.g. CTs) because they're less expensive and there will be more available. There's no safety reason why you shouldn't do this. MRIs are darn near harmless. It is just an economic issue with gaining time on an MRI to discover information which may not change the overall outcome for the child (pediatricians are getting better and better at detecting early signs of autism). Heck, if MRIs were readily available they'd quickly replace ultrasound during pregnancy (since MRIs are likely safer and superior given that they better represent depth). But alas, a MRI costs up to $1m for a "basic" one and up to $3m for a fMRI, and that's ignoring the space/training/power utilisation issues.
- clarkmoody 10y ago
  +1 for the quality and safety of MRI > they'd quickly replace ultrasound during pregnancy Since scan time goes up with detail, and babies are really squirmy, it would be interesting to see how a quick-scan (low resolution) MRI compares with ultrasound quality. But ultrasound destroys MRI in terms of portability, availability, and cost: just wheel in the cart, apply some goo, and there's the baby. Perhaps more serious situations should use MRI more often instead of diagnostic ultrasound.
  - timClicks 10y ago
    I expect that portability is actually a reason why often even visual ultrasound isn't used. Doppler scanning is often all that's needed to monitor heart rhythms
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - timClicks 10y ago
    Squirmy babies shouldn't be too much of an issue. They do cardiac MRI all the time and hearts are hopefully beating during those ;)
mememachine 10y ago
Im still fairly convinced it has more to do with environment than genetics
- sxg 10y ago
  What's your evidence?
  - Retr0spectrum 10y ago
    My completely unscientific opinion is that human genetics in general hasn't changed much in recent years, compared to the changes in our lifestyles. If you had to pick one as the cause of an increase in autism diagnoses, the change in lifestyle seems more obvious. This opinion isn't based on any concrete facts, so feel free to change it.
    - sxg 10y ago
      Some experts in the field think that we've improved our ability to diagnose autism and diagnose it early (as this article also mentions). That's been one explanation for the increase in autism diagnoses. I agree that genetics probably haven't changed enough to account for the entire increase in diagnoses, so there's a counter-explanation.
    - deleted 10y ago
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    - arrosenberg 10y ago
      I think it's more likely that we are just getting better at diagnosing it, and the autism spectrum has not only existed throughout human history, but a large minority of our most celebrated artists, scientists and mathematicians were likely on the spectrum to a degree or another.
      - GarvielLoken 10y ago
        Except that is not true. We know from texts that if anything old "geniuses" were not autistic, but they were on the bipolar spectrum, or more generally on the affect spectrum ( mood disturbance ). Winston Churchill for example is famously bipolar. Many texts refer to feeling an overbearing sudden sadness, as in bipolar depression spectrum. Autism and schizophrenia are so horrible because they are not on the affect spectrum. So in a historic view autism is indeed a new and a modern madness. I would recommend the book "The Master and His Emissary" by Iain McGilchrist.
technologyvault 10y ago
I met a woman at an amusement park last year who was certain that her child became autistic immediately after receiving immunization shots. She was wearing a shirt advertising this movie: http://vaxxedthemovie.com/ http://vaxxedthemovie.com/ It seems like this research (if it's proven to be accurate consistently) could be instrumental in either putting that idea to rest or validating it.
- lloydde 10y ago
  It's not an idea that needs putting to rest. There is no legitimate research that supports such causation. "Validation" would invalidate the existing body of research, which is improbable.
  - prakashrj 10y ago
    Why research has to validate everything? These are facts that children are regressing into Autism after MMR at 15 months. Science still doesn't know how food gets digested and becomes poop. Will you stop eating, because science doesn't know what really happens during digestion?
    - cr0sh 10y ago
      > Science still doesn't know how food gets digested and becomes poop. You're going to really need to provide some kind of evidence for this, because I'm pretty certain that scientists do have a pretty good idea how this process works. For that matter, I could give you a layman's explanation that, while it may not be 100% accurate, probably would come really close to a real explanation...
    - bbcbasic 10y ago
      These are facts that children are regressing into Autism after X at 15 months: Choose your X: Stop breastfeeding Start walking Start playing in the park Start eating solids Start throwing tantrums
    - Klinky 10y ago
      Are you really saying "don't trust science, but do trust this scientific study that vaccines cause autism"? You're undermining your own argument.
droopyEyelids 10y ago
I'd like to know the prevalance of 'false positives' with this test. If we scanned the brains of a completely random set of babies (these were high-likelihood cases), what percent of infants would show abnormal brain topography, but go on to be "normal"
- deleted 10y ago
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- rusk 10y ago
  (EDIT: Sorry, I just figured out the control-group - it's the extant body of knowledge around what describes normal head size - remarks about careful interpretation of results still stand) Found you all the way down at the bottom here and I decided to have a quick look at the abstract to see if I could find something to put your mind at ease. I couldn't. In fact the language "prospective neuroimaging study" suggests it's more like a pilot study than anything conclusive. The sample population "of 106 infants at high familial risk of ASD and 42 low-risk infants" is used, and while it seems like the 42 is a control-group I think that's misleading. Surely a "control group" would be one where the infants didn't exhibit this brain enlargement? There's reference to a "A deep-learning algorithm" rather than any well-understood approach for determining correlation e.g. a simple T-test. Finally the language "Brain volume overgrowth was linked to the emergence and severity of autistic social deficits" suggests an actual causal link is suggested, which doesn't seem to be the case. Just that a correlation has been discovered. There could be more to it but it costs £22 to look at the actual paper. But it does seem to me as though this is another case of incomplete science being presented as fait accompli. It doesn't contradict any scientific consensus so extraordinary evidence not required, but the BBC's interpretation of this as "Autism detectable in brain long before symptoms appear" does seem like a bit of a leap ...
pchristensen 10y ago
For anyone curious about the history and rise of autism diagnoses (attributable entirely to redefinition from a narrow, "Rain man"-like condition to a broad spectrum of characteristics), this interview is the best resource I have encountered: (67 minute podcast) http://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/01/12/podcast-269-forgotten-history-autism/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/01/12/podcast-269-forgott...
- trhway 10y ago
  > history and rise of autism diagnoses (attributable entirely to redefinition from a narrow, "Rain man"-like condition to a broad spectrum of characteristics) or may be it is connected to less and less exposure to Sun (office work and sunscreen usage), i.e. vitamin D deficiency. High correlation between vitamin D deficiency and increased autism rate is very visible in the case of Somali immigrant communities in Sweden and Minnesota (less sunshine, dark skin plus significantly bigger cloth coverage of the body results in the observed severe vitamin D deficiency in the Somali immigrants there). Such correlation is also present, while less pronounced, for Sweden children for whom 3rd trimester happened in winter.
scardine 10y ago
My 4 years old son is mildly autistic. He is doing well, attending a regular school and learning to interact with people. I first suspected he was different because he didn't locked eyes with my wife when she was breastfeeding (I have 3 older kids to compare). He learned to walk in time, but he was not pointing to the things he wanted (instead used to grab me by the arm and use it like a tool), and he was unwilling to look at something we were pointing like a neurotipical kid does. I saw many other signs, but my wife was always in denial until he was 2.5 and I showed her some videos of autistic behavior on Youtube. Long story short, it almost ruined my marriage (my wife felt like I was torturing her by sending her material about autism). I don't know why I knew more about autism than the pediatrician, but the subject always interested me. My advice is: if you are suspicious, get your son diagnosed by a specialized neuropediatrician (do not waste time with someone who is not well prepared to diagnose autism).
- b1gtuna 10y ago
  Thank you for sharing your story. As a guy who's about to get married, I began paying more attention to articles like this one. I am now ware that early diagnosis is important. I will make sure to see the right specialist if I suspect something.
- deleted 10y ago
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- anotherevan 10y ago
  Another anecdote here: Both my daughter and son are on the spectrum (high-level autistic, or aspberger). Son was diagnosed at age seven, daughter at age fifteen. Generally it can be harder to pick up with girls. They tend to be better mimics and it can present much more subtly. I really wish we had figured it out sooner with our daughter – she has had a lot of issues with anxiety and school refusal for the last few years, and I wonder if had had the necessary information earlier like we did with our son, how much of a difference it would have made. (Although both are autistic, they present so differently it was not obvious.) So I reiterate scardine’s exhortation to seek a diagnosis and early treatment if you suspect there may be autism at play. There’s a steep learning curve to getting your head around it and figuring out how to best help yourself and/or your loved ones, but you read hacker news, so you’re up for the challenge. Find (or start) a local community support group – it’s a hell of a lot easier than trying to hack it alone.
pfarnsworth 10y ago
In Canada, you need to wait over 2 years to get any sort of treatment, because of the long lines. My friend has 2 autistic children, who both suffered and continue to suffer because of inadequate funding. And because of the 2 year wait, these types of diagnoses are useless, because they won't get funding until much later. It's a travesty. But here in CA, if you have Kaiser, apparently they have a gold medal autism treatment program, according to a doctor that deals with child developmental disorders. It's because they got sued several years ago, and the result was they now put every child in a top autism treatment program.
- theWatcher37 10y ago
  Why am I constantly lambasted by commenters on Reddit about the superiority of the Canadian healthcare system... while in threads like these I you see Canadians upset about massive wait times? How does that work?
  - xenadu02 10y ago
    Because the healthcare system is vast and has many aspects. It also varies across locations. My son doesn't have classic autism but he has developmental delays, sensory issues, etc. Trying to find providers here in the bay area can be extremely frustrating with extremely long wait times and we have great insurance. Our prior plan was Kaiser and it was just as much of a hassle but in a different way (having to go through a special office to get approval for therapists, etc).
  - VeejayRampay 10y ago
    Because it's better to wait for 2 years than to be excluded for the health care system because you don't have money?
    - djrogers 10y ago
      Not if the choice to pay out of pocket for earlier treatment or better insurance is denied to you...
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zargath 10y ago
My oldest son has adhd+autism. It is difficult to explain how hard it has been for him and for us as parents. The social and school situations is always a problem, it is one day at a time and we all try not to break. He looks like any other boy, but emotional(anger, nightmares, .. ) it is a roller coster and even his special teachers has a hard time. So with that, I wish future parents will have it better and maybe some autism detection will help with early diagnostics. I can list so many things that my son cant do, that other children can. But at the same time, he sees things very uniquely and any groundbreaking invention will come from a boy like my son and not from my other "normal" children. Autism can be terrible , I wish that I could spare him all his troubles, but in some way the Autism is also a gift. I cant help but wonder if some of our brightest minds all had some diagnose and was just strong enough to survive the "normal" life. Best wishes to any person with autism and even parents struggling out on the interwebs.
hannob 10y ago
The usual "be skeptical about science" warning: * Single study, not replicated. Wait for replications and systematic reviews before believing anything in it. * MRI studies aren't exactly known for high quality science. * Autism studies aren't exactly known for high quality standards. * I don't have access to the full text, but the summary shows no sign this study has been preregistered. Means risk of publication bias.
memossy 10y ago
I quit a high flying job to research ASD when my son was diagnosed years ago and have read every single paper and website I could find. My broad conclusion from this is that ASD is a condition caused by lots of different factors with common symptoms. This makes treatments tough as ASD caused by oxidative stress would respond badly to treatments that work great on ASD caused by reductive stress for example (eg ASD symptoms that seem to get 'better' when taking paracetamol vs ASD made worse by it). Thus when treatments are tried across the population you get odd results if you're not sub-dividing the groups into likely etiology, I've tried to look for statistically significant sets taking this into account. The key dysfunctional system in most ASD seems to be the balance between the excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters GABA and Glutamate. The two broad groups for this appear to reflect 'classical' autism, ie same from birth vs 'regressive' ASD, for example secondary to mitochondrial dysfunction where there is a sudden loss of ability. For the former, a common cause appears to be GABA dysfunction, which the blog epiphanyasd.blogspot.com does a great job pulling together the research on. In this case GABA doesn't flip to inhibitory from excitatory at birth and this could show up in brain scans for this subset of children with ASD.. The treatment options are interesting in this regard, but the 'safest' trial to check this dysfunction I've found is micro-dosage clonazepam (40mcg), which is already prescribed to children with anxiety (at 500-1000mcg doses). At this subclinical dosage, it should have no impact unless there is a dysfunction, but if it does (which it has in several families I know), then the research into other drugs that could treat this dysfunction becomes far more interesting (eg current trials in France by Ben Ari and Lemmonier on bumetanide).
- spangry 10y ago
  That's really interesting, thanks for taking the time to share. I had no idea GABA's function in the brain 'inverts' at birth. When you say this could show up in brain scans, do you mean to say it has, or it's a theoretical (in the scientific sense of the word) explanation ? I remember reading in 'The Brain the Changes Itself' that brain scan studies have observed that the brains of people with ASD do not differentiate between different auditory frequencies well. The way it is described in the book is that as infants develop, the part of the brain that processes sound starts to more selectively 'light up' as we 'learn' different frequencies, like someone becoming more precise when playing a single note on a piano-keyboard. However, it was apparently observed that the entire 'keyboard' lights up for people with ASD, regardless of the (audible) frequency. I've always wondered about this. The author put forward an interesting theory about sensory over-stimulation in ASD sufferers, but it sounded kinda speculative to me. Did you come across this in your research? And if you did, do you think there's anything to?

181 points by sndean 10y ago

Here's a link to the paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/full/nature21369.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/full/nature2... http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/pdf/nature21369.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v542/n7641/pdf/nature21... And the IBIS Network who drove the study: http://www.ibis-network.org/ http://www.ibis-network.org/

monocasa 10y ago

Thank god, maybe this'll slow down the whole "vaccines cause autism" BS. A huge part of that was that symptoms started to show after a big vaccine dose you get around 2 years old.

Retr0spectrum 10y ago
It's already been thoroughly debunked, no ammount of additional logic will sway the people who still think vaccines cause autism. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" ~ Jonathan Swift (paraphrased)
- bryanrasmussen 10y ago
  that really doesn't sound like Swift - are you sure that's an accurate quote?
  - Retr0spectrum 10y ago
    I actually skimmed this article before posting, it seems to conclude that it's from Swift (or at least, a rewording of something he said originally): http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/ http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/
    - graeme 10y ago
      The article says swift's original was this: "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired" Which does sound like Swift. The rewrite doesn't, and attributing it to him in that form is misleading.
      - Retr0spectrum 10y ago
        I agree, but how else should I attribute it? That particular variation just came off the top of my head.
        graeme 10y ago
        Hmm, very good question. I don't really know. I wouldn't expect you to memorize the Swift original. I searched "How to attribute a fake quote" and nothing useful came up. Maybe: "– Apocryphal quote incorrectly attributed to Jonathan Swift" But that's not very satisfying, or short.
        stormbrew 10y ago
        Apocryphal and incorrectly attributed to make it sound like he never even said something with that sense. The two quotes are more than alike enough in sentiment to attribute the idea to him, if not the exact words. In which case, "Jonathan Swift once said something like...."
        kolinko 10y ago
        Or just "Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)"
        Retr0spectrum 10y ago
        Good suggestion, I just edited my original comment.
        breischl 10y ago
        The construction to paraphrase Jonathan Swift, "quote goes here" is similar, but arguably a bit more readable.
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rosser 10y ago
The anti-vax crowd has an identity-level stake in that narrative. Facts that counter that narrative are taken merely as an attack on their selfhood at that point, just like any other identity-level investment in a belief, be it Democrat, Christian, American, or anything else.
- Spellman 10y ago
  If their entire feed is overwhelmed, eventually people change their mind. At least 30-40% of the feed in one study. source: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/02/11/yanss-095-how-to-fight-back-against-the-backfire-effect/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/02/11/yanss-095-how-to-fig... paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2010.00772.x/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2010.... Trouble is in today's world, you get to filter your data sources to things that you already believe in.
prakashrj 10y ago
Check Vaccination schedule. 1st dose of MMR is given between 12 and 15 months. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc... Unless you regress into severe Autism, it's very difficult for parents or even doctors to recognize Autism until they are atleast 2 years. Also according to the schedule, there is no big dose around 2 years. After 18 months, there are not many doses on schedule until children are again 4 years. Most parents complain about MMR vaccination that is scheduled at 15 months. My son regressed into Autism after MMR. It is true. I hope the world realizes it before more children get effected.
- iak8god 10y ago
  First things first: sorry about your son's autism. > My son regressed into Autism after MMR. It is true. I hope the world realizes it before more children get effected. "The world" does not dispute that your son started showing signs of autism right after getting the MMR vaccine. Since there is no scientific causal explanation, and since study after study after study have shown that children who get the MMR vaccine do not develop autism at higher rates than those who did not get the vaccine, the best explanation is that the timing of the onset of your son's condition is a coincidence. I understand why parents dealing with their own personal sample size of one jump to that conclusion, but the link is just not there.
  - pdx 10y ago
    > the link is just not there. Watch the 'Vaxxed' documentary [1] about a CDC whistleblower who tells exactly WHY "the link is just not there". [1] http://1337x.to/torrent/1789192/Vaxxed-From-Cover-Up-To-Catastrophe-2016-LiMiTED-DVDRip-x264-LPD/ http://1337x.to/torrent/1789192/Vaxxed-From-Cover-Up-To-Cata...
    - iak8god 10y ago
      Respectfully, saying "just watch this 90 minute film" is not a very worthwhile contribution to the discussion. I gather from summaries I've just now seen that this film claims there is a global conspiracy to suppress the truth. If you're interested in reality, you can start reading about all the many reasons Wakefield has been discredited here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

airesQ 10y ago

It seems that we have deep learning applied to MRI: A deep-learning algorithm that primarily uses surface area information from magnetic resonance imaging of the brain of 6–12-month-old individuals predicted the diagnosis of autism in individual high-risk children at 24 months (with a positive predictive value of 81% and a sensitivity of 88%).

hive_mind 10y ago
What puts a child at high-risk for Autism?
- AlphaWeaver 10y ago
  I would assume things like Genetics, history in the family, etc.
- ClassyJacket 10y ago
  I'm not sure if this is what they meant, but older parents have a higher risk of having autistic children http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v21/n5/full/mp201570a.html http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v21/n5/full/mp201570a.html
- Spellman 10y ago
  Recommended watching on causes of Autism: https://www.ted.com/talks/wendy_chung_autism_what_we_know_and_what_we_don_t_know_yet https://www.ted.com/talks/wendy_chung_autism_what_we_know_an... 3 major factors that are highly correlated: 1) Using a particular drug 2) Age of father 3) Being male Majority is genetics though, so if the two parents are both highly intelligent and/or on the spectrum, good chances the child will be as well. Autism is principally caused by the brain neurons developing too quickly during development, and then not reaching the same levels in fully developed adults. One theory thrown around is it's the rapid neuron development, so having intelligent parents means you have a chance of overshooting the threshold of "safe" development resulting in Autism. I presume this study has better, more-up-to-date metrics though.
  - 10y ago

Someone1234 10y ago

This is definitely interesting, scientifically, and may help us better understand Autism (and its causes). I cannot imagine this will see widespread adoption outside of research. MRI scans remain expensive and many MRIs have waiting lists at hospitals. Even today, they regularly use less safe technology (e.g. CTs) because they're less expensive and there will be more available. There's no safety reason why you shouldn't do this. MRIs are darn near harmless. It is just an economic issue with gaining time on an MRI to discover information which may not change the overall outcome for the child (pediatricians are getting better and better at detecting early signs of autism). Heck, if MRIs were readily available they'd quickly replace ultrasound during pregnancy (since MRIs are likely safer and superior given that they better represent depth). But alas, a MRI costs up to $1m for a "basic" one and up to $3m for a fMRI, and that's ignoring the space/training/power utilisation issues.

clarkmoody 10y ago
+1 for the quality and safety of MRI > they'd quickly replace ultrasound during pregnancy Since scan time goes up with detail, and babies are really squirmy, it would be interesting to see how a quick-scan (low resolution) MRI compares with ultrasound quality. But ultrasound destroys MRI in terms of portability, availability, and cost: just wheel in the cart, apply some goo, and there's the baby. Perhaps more serious situations should use MRI more often instead of diagnostic ultrasound.
- timClicks 10y ago
  I expect that portability is actually a reason why often even visual ultrasound isn't used. Doppler scanning is often all that's needed to monitor heart rhythms
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- timClicks 10y ago
  Squirmy babies shouldn't be too much of an issue. They do cardiac MRI all the time and hearts are hopefully beating during those ;)

mememachine 10y ago

Im still fairly convinced it has more to do with environment than genetics

sxg 10y ago
What's your evidence?
- Retr0spectrum 10y ago
  My completely unscientific opinion is that human genetics in general hasn't changed much in recent years, compared to the changes in our lifestyles. If you had to pick one as the cause of an increase in autism diagnoses, the change in lifestyle seems more obvious. This opinion isn't based on any concrete facts, so feel free to change it.
  - sxg 10y ago
    Some experts in the field think that we've improved our ability to diagnose autism and diagnose it early (as this article also mentions). That's been one explanation for the increase in autism diagnoses. I agree that genetics probably haven't changed enough to account for the entire increase in diagnoses, so there's a counter-explanation.
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  - arrosenberg 10y ago
    I think it's more likely that we are just getting better at diagnosing it, and the autism spectrum has not only existed throughout human history, but a large minority of our most celebrated artists, scientists and mathematicians were likely on the spectrum to a degree or another.
    - GarvielLoken 10y ago
      Except that is not true. We know from texts that if anything old "geniuses" were not autistic, but they were on the bipolar spectrum, or more generally on the affect spectrum ( mood disturbance ). Winston Churchill for example is famously bipolar. Many texts refer to feeling an overbearing sudden sadness, as in bipolar depression spectrum. Autism and schizophrenia are so horrible because they are not on the affect spectrum. So in a historic view autism is indeed a new and a modern madness. I would recommend the book "The Master and His Emissary" by Iain McGilchrist.

technologyvault 10y ago

I met a woman at an amusement park last year who was certain that her child became autistic immediately after receiving immunization shots. She was wearing a shirt advertising this movie: http://vaxxedthemovie.com/ http://vaxxedthemovie.com/ It seems like this research (if it's proven to be accurate consistently) could be instrumental in either putting that idea to rest or validating it.

lloydde 10y ago
It's not an idea that needs putting to rest. There is no legitimate research that supports such causation. "Validation" would invalidate the existing body of research, which is improbable.
- prakashrj 10y ago
  Why research has to validate everything? These are facts that children are regressing into Autism after MMR at 15 months. Science still doesn't know how food gets digested and becomes poop. Will you stop eating, because science doesn't know what really happens during digestion?
  - cr0sh 10y ago
    > Science still doesn't know how food gets digested and becomes poop. You're going to really need to provide some kind of evidence for this, because I'm pretty certain that scientists do have a pretty good idea how this process works. For that matter, I could give you a layman's explanation that, while it may not be 100% accurate, probably would come really close to a real explanation...
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    These are facts that children are regressing into Autism after X at 15 months: Choose your X: Stop breastfeeding Start walking Start playing in the park Start eating solids Start throwing tantrums
  - Klinky 10y ago
    Are you really saying "don't trust science, but do trust this scientific study that vaccines cause autism"? You're undermining your own argument.

droopyEyelids 10y ago

I'd like to know the prevalance of 'false positives' with this test. If we scanned the brains of a completely random set of babies (these were high-likelihood cases), what percent of infants would show abnormal brain topography, but go on to be "normal"

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rusk 10y ago
(EDIT: Sorry, I just figured out the control-group - it's the extant body of knowledge around what describes normal head size - remarks about careful interpretation of results still stand) Found you all the way down at the bottom here and I decided to have a quick look at the abstract to see if I could find something to put your mind at ease. I couldn't. In fact the language "prospective neuroimaging study" suggests it's more like a pilot study than anything conclusive. The sample population "of 106 infants at high familial risk of ASD and 42 low-risk infants" is used, and while it seems like the 42 is a control-group I think that's misleading. Surely a "control group" would be one where the infants didn't exhibit this brain enlargement? There's reference to a "A deep-learning algorithm" rather than any well-understood approach for determining correlation e.g. a simple T-test. Finally the language "Brain volume overgrowth was linked to the emergence and severity of autistic social deficits" suggests an actual causal link is suggested, which doesn't seem to be the case. Just that a correlation has been discovered. There could be more to it but it costs £22 to look at the actual paper. But it does seem to me as though this is another case of incomplete science being presented as fait accompli. It doesn't contradict any scientific consensus so extraordinary evidence not required, but the BBC's interpretation of this as "Autism detectable in brain long before symptoms appear" does seem like a bit of a leap ...

pchristensen 10y ago

For anyone curious about the history and rise of autism diagnoses (attributable entirely to redefinition from a narrow, "Rain man"-like condition to a broad spectrum of characteristics), this interview is the best resource I have encountered: (67 minute podcast) http://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/01/12/podcast-269-forgotten-history-autism/ http://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/01/12/podcast-269-forgott...

trhway 10y ago
> history and rise of autism diagnoses (attributable entirely to redefinition from a narrow, "Rain man"-like condition to a broad spectrum of characteristics) or may be it is connected to less and less exposure to Sun (office work and sunscreen usage), i.e. vitamin D deficiency. High correlation between vitamin D deficiency and increased autism rate is very visible in the case of Somali immigrant communities in Sweden and Minnesota (less sunshine, dark skin plus significantly bigger cloth coverage of the body results in the observed severe vitamin D deficiency in the Somali immigrants there). Such correlation is also present, while less pronounced, for Sweden children for whom 3rd trimester happened in winter.

scardine 10y ago

My 4 years old son is mildly autistic. He is doing well, attending a regular school and learning to interact with people. I first suspected he was different because he didn't locked eyes with my wife when she was breastfeeding (I have 3 older kids to compare). He learned to walk in time, but he was not pointing to the things he wanted (instead used to grab me by the arm and use it like a tool), and he was unwilling to look at something we were pointing like a neurotipical kid does. I saw many other signs, but my wife was always in denial until he was 2.5 and I showed her some videos of autistic behavior on Youtube. Long story short, it almost ruined my marriage (my wife felt like I was torturing her by sending her material about autism). I don't know why I knew more about autism than the pediatrician, but the subject always interested me. My advice is: if you are suspicious, get your son diagnosed by a specialized neuropediatrician (do not waste time with someone who is not well prepared to diagnose autism).

b1gtuna 10y ago
Thank you for sharing your story. As a guy who's about to get married, I began paying more attention to articles like this one. I am now ware that early diagnosis is important. I will make sure to see the right specialist if I suspect something.
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anotherevan 10y ago
Another anecdote here: Both my daughter and son are on the spectrum (high-level autistic, or aspberger). Son was diagnosed at age seven, daughter at age fifteen. Generally it can be harder to pick up with girls. They tend to be better mimics and it can present much more subtly. I really wish we had figured it out sooner with our daughter – she has had a lot of issues with anxiety and school refusal for the last few years, and I wonder if had had the necessary information earlier like we did with our son, how much of a difference it would have made. (Although both are autistic, they present so differently it was not obvious.) So I reiterate scardine’s exhortation to seek a diagnosis and early treatment if you suspect there may be autism at play. There’s a steep learning curve to getting your head around it and figuring out how to best help yourself and/or your loved ones, but you read hacker news, so you’re up for the challenge. Find (or start) a local community support group – it’s a hell of a lot easier than trying to hack it alone.

pfarnsworth 10y ago

In Canada, you need to wait over 2 years to get any sort of treatment, because of the long lines. My friend has 2 autistic children, who both suffered and continue to suffer because of inadequate funding. And because of the 2 year wait, these types of diagnoses are useless, because they won't get funding until much later. It's a travesty. But here in CA, if you have Kaiser, apparently they have a gold medal autism treatment program, according to a doctor that deals with child developmental disorders. It's because they got sued several years ago, and the result was they now put every child in a top autism treatment program.

theWatcher37 10y ago
Why am I constantly lambasted by commenters on Reddit about the superiority of the Canadian healthcare system... while in threads like these I you see Canadians upset about massive wait times? How does that work?
- xenadu02 10y ago
  Because the healthcare system is vast and has many aspects. It also varies across locations. My son doesn't have classic autism but he has developmental delays, sensory issues, etc. Trying to find providers here in the bay area can be extremely frustrating with extremely long wait times and we have great insurance. Our prior plan was Kaiser and it was just as much of a hassle but in a different way (having to go through a special office to get approval for therapists, etc).
- VeejayRampay 10y ago
  Because it's better to wait for 2 years than to be excluded for the health care system because you don't have money?
  - djrogers 10y ago
    Not if the choice to pay out of pocket for earlier treatment or better insurance is denied to you...

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zargath 10y ago

My oldest son has adhd+autism. It is difficult to explain how hard it has been for him and for us as parents. The social and school situations is always a problem, it is one day at a time and we all try not to break. He looks like any other boy, but emotional(anger, nightmares, .. ) it is a roller coster and even his special teachers has a hard time. So with that, I wish future parents will have it better and maybe some autism detection will help with early diagnostics. I can list so many things that my son cant do, that other children can. But at the same time, he sees things very uniquely and any groundbreaking invention will come from a boy like my son and not from my other "normal" children. Autism can be terrible , I wish that I could spare him all his troubles, but in some way the Autism is also a gift. I cant help but wonder if some of our brightest minds all had some diagnose and was just strong enough to survive the "normal" life. Best wishes to any person with autism and even parents struggling out on the interwebs.

hannob 10y ago

The usual "be skeptical about science" warning: * Single study, not replicated. Wait for replications and systematic reviews before believing anything in it. * MRI studies aren't exactly known for high quality science. * Autism studies aren't exactly known for high quality standards. * I don't have access to the full text, but the summary shows no sign this study has been preregistered. Means risk of publication bias.

memossy 10y ago

I quit a high flying job to research ASD when my son was diagnosed years ago and have read every single paper and website I could find. My broad conclusion from this is that ASD is a condition caused by lots of different factors with common symptoms. This makes treatments tough as ASD caused by oxidative stress would respond badly to treatments that work great on ASD caused by reductive stress for example (eg ASD symptoms that seem to get 'better' when taking paracetamol vs ASD made worse by it). Thus when treatments are tried across the population you get odd results if you're not sub-dividing the groups into likely etiology, I've tried to look for statistically significant sets taking this into account. The key dysfunctional system in most ASD seems to be the balance between the excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters GABA and Glutamate. The two broad groups for this appear to reflect 'classical' autism, ie same from birth vs 'regressive' ASD, for example secondary to mitochondrial dysfunction where there is a sudden loss of ability. For the former, a common cause appears to be GABA dysfunction, which the blog epiphanyasd.blogspot.com does a great job pulling together the research on. In this case GABA doesn't flip to inhibitory from excitatory at birth and this could show up in brain scans for this subset of children with ASD.. The treatment options are interesting in this regard, but the 'safest' trial to check this dysfunction I've found is micro-dosage clonazepam (40mcg), which is already prescribed to children with anxiety (at 500-1000mcg doses). At this subclinical dosage, it should have no impact unless there is a dysfunction, but if it does (which it has in several families I know), then the research into other drugs that could treat this dysfunction becomes far more interesting (eg current trials in France by Ben Ari and Lemmonier on bumetanide).

spangry 10y ago
That's really interesting, thanks for taking the time to share. I had no idea GABA's function in the brain 'inverts' at birth. When you say this could show up in brain scans, do you mean to say it has, or it's a theoretical (in the scientific sense of the word) explanation ? I remember reading in 'The Brain the Changes Itself' that brain scan studies have observed that the brains of people with ASD do not differentiate between different auditory frequencies well. The way it is described in the book is that as infants develop, the part of the brain that processes sound starts to more selectively 'light up' as we 'learn' different frequencies, like someone becoming more precise when playing a single note on a piano-keyboard. However, it was apparently observed that the entire 'keyboard' lights up for people with ASD, regardless of the (audible) frequency. I've always wondered about this. The author put forward an interesting theory about sensory over-stimulation in ASD sufferers, but it sounded kinda speculative to me. Did you come across this in your research? And if you did, do you think there's anything to?