6 ms·

Python is the algorithm king as far as I'm concerned. It really gets out of your way and lets you focus on the abstract nature of what you're trying to accomp

Python is the algorithm king as far as I'm concerned. It really gets out of your way and lets you focus on the abstract nature of what you're trying to accomplish.

koolba 10y ago
If Python is the king, C is the court jester juggling knives. Done well it looks amazing, elegant, and efficient, but in the wrong hands you'll lose your hands.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  It also forces you to know what's happening under the hood though. If learning the material comprehensively is your goal I think it's not a bad idea to dig in to a c implementation.
  - michaelchisari 10y ago
    At this point, I would recommend Rust for the "under the hood" part, while forcing you to write safer code.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      Probably a good idea!
- apl002 10y ago
  Where is javascript in this medieval court?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsacco 10y ago
    JavaScript is the archbishop, evangelizing the holy trinity of React, Node.js and MongoDB.
    - koolba 10y ago
      At least one of those would be on the receiving end of any technology holy war.
    - joatmon-snoo 10y ago
      I think you meant React, Node, Vue, Vanilla, Backbone, Angular, [trails off]
      - dylz 10y ago
        Top 1000 javascript libraries of 2016: a year-end roundup
        irrational 10y ago
        They change often enough that it would be better to create the list on a monthly basis.
      - Groxx 10y ago
        They're the lesser gods and demons (often swapping places) of the pantheon.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Somewhat appropriate, as nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Shoveling horse shit in the stables.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Something necessary but evil.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    Javascript is the kitchen hand that you taught how to chop vegetables. Yesterday you asked him to chop wood, and you've spent all of today trying to figure out why your kitchen knives are dull.
- icpmacdo 10y ago
  I am slowly working my way through CS50 on EDX and its an interesting experience doing an intro to CS type course in C for sure.
- kornish 10y ago
  There's a great book title that plays off this idea: "Enough Rope to Shoot Yourself in the Foot: Rules for C and C++ Programming" [0] It's also perhaps the best mixed metaphor I've ever encountered. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Rope-Shoot-Yourself-Foot/dp/0070296898 https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Rope-Shoot-Yourself-Foot/dp/00...
  - Impossible 10y ago
    I said this by accident in a meeting one time and everyone got a good laugh from it. Must have got it from this book unconsciously.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- vog 10y ago
  While I applaud Python to have established a well-designed[1] layer on top of the math/numeric libraries written in Fortran, C and C++, I hope that one day Rust will smoothen the corners. While Rust might not become a replacement for the Python layer, it may replace the C/C++/Fortran layer with all their speed and low-level optimization, yet provide good (and especially safe!) abstractions on top of that. Currently, people try to use C++ to fill that gap, but I'd love to see Rust's type system, borrow checker and macro system, instead of C++ templates. [1] As opposed to Mathematica, MatLab, etc.
walshemj 10y ago
I would have said Fortran is still the King :-)
- jeremy_wiebe 10y ago
  In college I had to implement all my Data Structures coursework in COBOL. That was...interesting. :-)
catnaroek 10y ago
Hardly. How often is it that you can read an uncommented Python program that implements a tricky algorithm, and you can easily recover basic things like loop invariants?
- yorwba 10y ago
  For that you'd really want something like Dafny https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/dafny-a-language-and-program-verifier-for-functional-correctness/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/dafny-a-lan... where your program doesn't even compile if you don't give it the right invariant.
  - catnaroek 10y ago
    But then there's no such thing as an unannotated program. I'm confident in my ability to prove things the old-fashioned way, using brain, pencil and paper, so I don't see much value in merely having my proofs verified by a machine. If the machine can't contribute to the effort of actually coming up with the proof, it should stay out of the way.
kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
I'd disagree. Python abstracts a little too much away, and it's much easier to figure out loop ranges, invariants etc in an algorithm from say Java code. Python works well when you have to convey your algorithm in a nice succinct functional manner, but that's optimizing for cuteness, not understanding.
GarvielLoken 10y ago
Common Lisp is the rebel leader, but is hampered by constant infighting.
ende 10y ago
Python is a fantastic language for learning algorithms. It's also a good interface for higher performance, lower level systems language libraries. That said, it is certainly worth the effort to learn one of those systems level languages to pair with python. I always say that python is like the English of programming languages; it's an amalgamation of other languages, programming paradigms and a rich set of libraries, and often serves as a 'Common Tongue' to glue disparate processes together. There is an inherit risk to that, though. Because it's so easy to transition between object/procedural/functional modes, because it's so easy to tie together so many different interfaces, because it's so easy to `import everything`... it is often too easy to avoid a proper separation of concerns. The flexibility comes with a disincentive towards discipline. All of the pedantry of systems level language performance and practices aside, even the context switch alone between 'algorithm language' and 'application language' is beneficial to promoting better discipline in both areas.

Python is the algorithm king as far as I'm concerned. It really gets out of your way and lets you focus on the abstract nature of what you're trying to accomplish.

koolba 10y ago

If Python is the king, C is the court jester juggling knives. Done well it looks amazing, elegant, and efficient, but in the wrong hands you'll lose your hands.

nostrebored 10y ago
It also forces you to know what's happening under the hood though. If learning the material comprehensively is your goal I think it's not a bad idea to dig in to a c implementation.
- michaelchisari 10y ago
  At this point, I would recommend Rust for the "under the hood" part, while forcing you to write safer code.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    Probably a good idea!
apl002 10y ago
Where is javascript in this medieval court?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dsacco 10y ago
  JavaScript is the archbishop, evangelizing the holy trinity of React, Node.js and MongoDB.
  - koolba 10y ago
    At least one of those would be on the receiving end of any technology holy war.
  - joatmon-snoo 10y ago
    I think you meant React, Node, Vue, Vanilla, Backbone, Angular, [trails off]
    - dylz 10y ago
      Top 1000 javascript libraries of 2016: a year-end roundup
      - irrational 10y ago
        They change often enough that it would be better to create the list on a monthly basis.
    - Groxx 10y ago
      They're the lesser gods and demons (often swapping places) of the pantheon.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Somewhat appropriate, as nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
- pc86 10y ago
  Shoveling horse shit in the stables.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Something necessary but evil.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  Javascript is the kitchen hand that you taught how to chop vegetables. Yesterday you asked him to chop wood, and you've spent all of today trying to figure out why your kitchen knives are dull.
icpmacdo 10y ago
I am slowly working my way through CS50 on EDX and its an interesting experience doing an intro to CS type course in C for sure.
kornish 10y ago
There's a great book title that plays off this idea: "Enough Rope to Shoot Yourself in the Foot: Rules for C and C++ Programming" [0] It's also perhaps the best mixed metaphor I've ever encountered. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Rope-Shoot-Yourself-Foot/dp/0070296898 https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Rope-Shoot-Yourself-Foot/dp/00...
- Impossible 10y ago
  I said this by accident in a meeting one time and everyone got a good laugh from it. Must have got it from this book unconsciously.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
vog 10y ago
While I applaud Python to have established a well-designed[1] layer on top of the math/numeric libraries written in Fortran, C and C++, I hope that one day Rust will smoothen the corners. While Rust might not become a replacement for the Python layer, it may replace the C/C++/Fortran layer with all their speed and low-level optimization, yet provide good (and especially safe!) abstractions on top of that. Currently, people try to use C++ to fill that gap, but I'd love to see Rust's type system, borrow checker and macro system, instead of C++ templates. [1] As opposed to Mathematica, MatLab, etc.

walshemj 10y ago

I would have said Fortran is still the King :-)

jeremy_wiebe 10y ago
In college I had to implement all my Data Structures coursework in COBOL. That was...interesting. :-)

catnaroek 10y ago

Hardly. How often is it that you can read an uncommented Python program that implements a tricky algorithm, and you can easily recover basic things like loop invariants?

yorwba 10y ago
For that you'd really want something like Dafny https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/dafny-a-language-and-program-verifier-for-functional-correctness/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/dafny-a-lan... where your program doesn't even compile if you don't give it the right invariant.
- catnaroek 10y ago
  But then there's no such thing as an unannotated program. I'm confident in my ability to prove things the old-fashioned way, using brain, pencil and paper, so I don't see much value in merely having my proofs verified by a machine. If the machine can't contribute to the effort of actually coming up with the proof, it should stay out of the way.

kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago

I'd disagree. Python abstracts a little too much away, and it's much easier to figure out loop ranges, invariants etc in an algorithm from say Java code. Python works well when you have to convey your algorithm in a nice succinct functional manner, but that's optimizing for cuteness, not understanding.

GarvielLoken 10y ago

Common Lisp is the rebel leader, but is hampered by constant infighting.

ende 10y ago

Python is a fantastic language for learning algorithms. It's also a good interface for higher performance, lower level systems language libraries. That said, it is certainly worth the effort to learn one of those systems level languages to pair with python. I always say that python is like the English of programming languages; it's an amalgamation of other languages, programming paradigms and a rich set of libraries, and often serves as a 'Common Tongue' to glue disparate processes together. There is an inherit risk to that, though. Because it's so easy to transition between object/procedural/functional modes, because it's so easy to tie together so many different interfaces, because it's so easy to `import everything`... it is often too easy to avoid a proper separation of concerns. The flexibility comes with a disincentive towards discipline. All of the pedantry of systems level language performance and practices aside, even the context switch alone between 'algorithm language' and 'application language' is beneficial to promoting better discipline in both areas.