4 ms·

> This information includes who you called and how long you talked. Given the recent shift from data to metadata protection, which is the only justification fo

> This information includes who you called and how long you talked. Given the recent shift from data to metadata protection, which is the only justification for messaging centralization, this vulnerability effectively reduces security to almost zero.

gepoch 10y ago
At the same time, metadata collection via a gag-ordered pen register on Signal is still possible in principle, this would just make it slurpable by existing prism type tools potentially already operating on iCloud. Those truly concerned with metadata should go to Tor, and not use signal, independent of this feature. I expect this is another case of UX/Security tradeoffs considerately made by OWS. Having native OS integration is nice, and probably the right answer for most users.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  How feasible is call setup correlation when there are 10000 calls per minute going through the servers?
tekklloneer 10y ago
Signal allows my (non-technical) friends and family to help raise the bar while providing a chat client that offers basic calling features. Signal isn't about being perfect (it's already made tons of concessions that make it useless to anyone "serious" about privacy). Instead, it helps raise the bar against bulk collections.
- dijit 10y ago
  Except the parent is right, if you don't have metadata protection by default, then it is no different than running something that's federated but secures it's transport or secures its payload end to end. Bulk collection concerns the envelope, knowing who you spoke to and how long for is _exactly_ the kind of information NSA was tracking 5 years ago. Content was never the issue, content can be encrypted by default with non-centralised systems. What's the point of a centralised system now, that was its only justification.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    If you have a Trojan on your phone that steals all your call info, remove the Trojan instead of not calling people. If signal isn't seamless and doesn't provide a good experience, nobody will use it, making it useless. If you don't want Apple to track your calls, get an Android phone or disable iCloud. What are you doing with iCloud if you're privacy-conscious, anyway?
fredsir 10y ago
But is that information not encrypted in iCloud by Apply? I thought they were encrypting everything by now, and if so, as long as you use an iPhone you are probably already trusting Apple to keep things safe, so in theory, it's still secure.
newscracker 10y ago
And yet Signal has not and does not allow retaining messages when moving to a new device (essentially, migrating messages to a new device) because it explicitly marks its data with the do not backup attribute to avoid leaking data. I find this sort of design decisions unappealing. If it put up a message on first launch and allowed the user to decide that, or even kept the current design on data backup as the default with a hidden setting to allow it, the app would be more useful. As it stands, Signal is good for voice calls where one doesn't usually have a need to retain content of the conversation. For text messages, it becomes useless after sometime (when the user changes devices).
- gepoch 10y ago
  You can actually do a plaintext import / export of all of your chat histories from the menu in the conversations screen (at least in Android.) It won't use OS level backup/restore, but I feel like that would've taken flak on HN anyways :)

gepoch 10y ago

At the same time, metadata collection via a gag-ordered pen register on Signal is still possible in principle, this would just make it slurpable by existing prism type tools potentially already operating on iCloud. Those truly concerned with metadata should go to Tor, and not use signal, independent of this feature. I expect this is another case of UX/Security tradeoffs considerately made by OWS. Having native OS integration is nice, and probably the right answer for most users.

angry_octet 10y ago
How feasible is call setup correlation when there are 10000 calls per minute going through the servers?

tekklloneer 10y ago

Signal allows my (non-technical) friends and family to help raise the bar while providing a chat client that offers basic calling features. Signal isn't about being perfect (it's already made tons of concessions that make it useless to anyone "serious" about privacy). Instead, it helps raise the bar against bulk collections.

dijit 10y ago
Except the parent is right, if you don't have metadata protection by default, then it is no different than running something that's federated but secures it's transport or secures its payload end to end. Bulk collection concerns the envelope, knowing who you spoke to and how long for is _exactly_ the kind of information NSA was tracking 5 years ago. Content was never the issue, content can be encrypted by default with non-centralised systems. What's the point of a centralised system now, that was its only justification.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  If you have a Trojan on your phone that steals all your call info, remove the Trojan instead of not calling people. If signal isn't seamless and doesn't provide a good experience, nobody will use it, making it useless. If you don't want Apple to track your calls, get an Android phone or disable iCloud. What are you doing with iCloud if you're privacy-conscious, anyway?

fredsir 10y ago

But is that information not encrypted in iCloud by Apply? I thought they were encrypting everything by now, and if so, as long as you use an iPhone you are probably already trusting Apple to keep things safe, so in theory, it's still secure.

newscracker 10y ago

And yet Signal has not and does not allow retaining messages when moving to a new device (essentially, migrating messages to a new device) because it explicitly marks its data with the do not backup attribute to avoid leaking data. I find this sort of design decisions unappealing. If it put up a message on first launch and allowed the user to decide that, or even kept the current design on data backup as the default with a hidden setting to allow it, the app would be more useful. As it stands, Signal is good for voice calls where one doesn't usually have a need to retain content of the conversation. For text messages, it becomes useless after sometime (when the user changes devices).

gepoch 10y ago
You can actually do a plaintext import / export of all of your chat histories from the menu in the conversations screen (at least in Android.) It won't use OS level backup/restore, but I feel like that would've taken flak on HN anyways :)