7 ms·

What's the benefit of decentralization? Not being snarky, I just don't really see it. What does a decentralized PGP email have that I don't have with my Signal

by Certhas 10y ago

What's the benefit of decentralization? Not being snarky, I just don't really see it. What does a decentralized PGP email have that I don't have with my Signal Messenger? Also, given how PGP works I fail to see how you can claim that you can achieve comparable client design/ease of use/UX to Signal. At the very least it appears evident to me that the problem is much much harder than Signal (and it should be, Signal was designed from the ground up with UX in mind, and made several important trade offs for it).

__jal 10y ago
> What's the benefit of decentralization? No single point at which to apply judicial- and/or rubber-hose cryptography is the big one. I do agree that the problem-space of attempting to make a reasonable UI for GPG has been explored for a long time with no useful results. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, but it seems like that's a hopeless endeavor. It is worth asking why, though. I'm not a UI person, so apply appropriate weighting to my opinion. I think this is one area - application of the Unix philosophy to task-driven security software - results in software that only the really invested will use. A combination email encryption/key distribution system with most nonessential options stripped out, targeting one mail client (at least at first) might be simple enough to achieve something closer to Signal-level usability. And the rounding-errors can continue to use the full GPG for our weird open-source rituals. But who knows. Maybe the entire model is just too complicated for mere mortals.
- lmm 10y ago
  > the problem-space of attempting to make a reasonable UI for GPG has been explored for a long time with no useful results Has it? Have we ever had even e.g. 2 reasonably skilled design professionals spend a year trying? That would, I suspect, be much less effort than has gone into Signal et al. But still beyond the resources of volunteer-only FOSS, unfortunately.
- NoGravitas 10y ago
  I don't think the real problem with OpenPGP is the UI issues. OpenKeychain and K9-Mail together provide a not terrible UI for OpenPGP, and if someone wanted to more tightly integrate them with each other,the UI could probably be improved further. But PGP-over-SMTP would still leak important metadata, and you would still have problems with forward secrecy and key revocation. Matrix looks like a much better decentralized solution to build a new email infrastructure on. But there are still metadata leakage issues with federation, and there need to be some standards and an example implementation for email-over-matrix.
  - lmm 10y ago
    > But PGP-over-SMTP would still leak important metadata, and you would still have problems with forward secrecy and key revocation. I don't think a well-integrated PGP-over-SMTP client would leak any more metadata than the likes of Signal does? Build in a good subkey rotation config and you'd solve most of the forward secrecy issues, and good defaults for how to treat revocation (including better expiry defaults) would resolve that issue. No?
    - NoGravitas 10y ago
      You would still leak unencrypted headers, which in SMTP are numerous and interesting. A client could minimize the useful content of the message headers, but you're always going to have at least the envelope headers available to every intermediate mail host. I do not know enough to be sure about your point about forward secrecy. You may be right.
      - e12e 10y ago
        Depends a bit what one considers integration: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_remailer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_remailer
      - lmm 10y ago
        > you're always going to have at least the envelope headers available to every intermediate mail host. Sure, so any intermediate server would see who was talking to who. But that's the case with Signal et al as well isn't it?
        NoGravitas 10y ago
        Currently, yes.
        cpach 10y ago
        ”But that's the case with Signal et al as well isn’t it?” No. ”Because your phone will be connecting to Signal’s servers, your cellular carrier can determine whether or not you are using the service. However, your carrier cannot gather any information about the individuals or groups with whom you are communicating.” Source: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ#what-about-metadata https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ#what-a...
lmm 10y ago
> What's the benefit of decentralization? Not being snarky, I just don't really see it. What does a decentralized PGP email have that I don't have with my Signal Messenger? It's a lot harder to block. You can have anyone run a mail server on any port (SSLed if necessary), which means you can use it for secure communications inside any "great firewall" (like that of China or Kazakhstan), or even in a country/region that's been cut off from the Internet (which we've seen happen for various amounts of time in Syria, Crimea, Turkey...). WhatsApp/Signal have a very limited version of this by getting makers of popular HTTPS services to work with them, but those services are subject to their own commercial pressures (all the big names have been known to collaborate with e.g. the Chinese authorities in the past) and attackers always have the option of just blocking those services outright. It rules out a whole class of attacks involving compromising the central servers and tricking the client into redoing an initial exchange. If the Signal client is implemented correctly this shouldn't be an issue, but it's an extra attack surface that simply doesn't exist for OpenPGP. Also compared to Signal et al it's more practical (though still difficult) to use pseudonymously, because a pseudonymous email address is eaiser than a pseudonymous phone number. Signal advocates talk about having deniability because your messages aren't provably signed by you, but I don't think that advantage exists in any reasonable threat model - if we're worried about a state adversary hunting down everyone who corresponded with dissident x, they'll find it easier to track down a phone number than an email address, and once they've tracked down one of x's correspondents (i.e. someone who has a phone with a number that exchanged messages with x) they're not going to be bothered by the fact that they don't have signed mathematical proof that this is the same person who corresponded with x. > Signal was designed from the ground up with UX in mind, and made several important trade offs for it Such as? At the protocol level I mean.
- Certhas 10y ago
  https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ One of the explicit protocol level trade offs is federation: > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we've developed requires centralization; it's entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.
m3rc 10y ago
Harder to prevent access to, harder to wire-tap. As other people pointed out WhatsApp has been blocked in countries before. Not to mention that with WhatsApp having a central location all messages are routed through we really don't have any guarantee that there isn't a compromised actor in there intercepting everything. Even if WhatsApp's crytpo is as flawless in implementation as we'd like FB still has access to all that metadata.
- ekiru 10y ago
  > Even if WhatsApp's crytpo is as flawless in implementation as we'd like FB still has access to all that metadata. Note that this argument is even more problematic for OpenPGP-encrypted email, as such email sends all metadata and some message data in plaintext.
  - m3rc 10y ago
    I'm not advocating for WhatsApp or PGP encrypted email, I'm pointing out that people who make the line in the sand at "decentralized vs centralized" are boiling the problem too far down.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Note that this argument is even more problematic for OpenPGP-encrypted email, as such email sends all metadata and some message data in plaintext. I ususally respect tptacek a lot but when it comes to Whatsapp I actively avoid it if at all possible, preferring Telegram even if the crypto is more than questionable. Same goes for mail: I prefer it - even unencrypted - over Whatsapp. For some of us our treat model is more concerned about Facebook and less about major TLAs. With Whatsapp I have to expect that all metadata about me - and my friends - are fed into Facebook and datamined from here to eternity and back again or until the end of the world as we know it. I have little to hide but given the catastrophically bad ad targeting of Facebook (yes, I am still a happily married father, a Java developer, a Norwegian. I don't need ANY more ads for dating websites until I specifically change my profile to let you know, THANK YOU. I would be happy to learn about useful developer tools or underrated fast food restaurants though. I also appreciated the uber ad with bundled coupon in google maps a few weeks ago and tested uber for the first time.) Given the same catastrophically bad targeting and given that it is the same owner who as far as I know hasn't yet apologised for his remarks about how trusting him was stupid it wouldn't surprise me if is more a WHEN than a IF that Facebook is going to sell everyones data to insurance companies, support scam call centers etc.
daptaq 10y ago
>What's the benefit of decentralization? Decentralization/Federalization + Standard Protocols. To really get the full potential, one needs both, since only then the network is truly free. Nobody can tell you how to access the Network, what software to use, who you can communicate with, etc. If you try using an unofficial WhatsApp client (eg. when you don't have you're phone), they can delete your account, and you can't do anything against that. This is IMO just too much control the central server has over the client.
tbirdz 10y ago
Decentralization is good to help protect the user against abuses from the central service provider. It also encourages competition, since the user can switch to a different service, and not be penalized by network effects preventing them from communicating with other people. I use MX records in my domain so that I can switch to any mail provider I want, and people will still be able to contact me with the same address. How is this possible in a centralized system? If I switch from WhatsApp to Signal, I lose all my contacts. If I want to keep communicating with them, then I have to convince them to switch to a different app, or just never stop using whatsapp. The network effects dynamic here makes it very difficult to switch from one centralized encrypted chat provider to another. If you try to leave, you lose all your contacts. The other thing I dislike is that they all seem to require a valid phone number. This puts you at the mercy of the phone company. If you change your phone number, then you have to get all your contacts to change their contact info for you. This is a huge step back, compared to email with own domain and MX records! The other thing I dislike about these centralized encrypted chat providers is the lack of client choice. 1 company can only support so many platforms, fair enough. But that will likely mean I'll never see the company develop a Linux desktop client, or a terminal based client for their network. And because of centralization, no-one else will be allowed to develop one either. In contrast, there are many different tools I can use for sending and receiving email on the Linux desktop, cli based backup tools, etc. And as far as the spam problem goes, I'm not sure how Signal/WhatsApp are better in this regard? If you have to give your signal address to out for people to communicate with you, or to do business with a company, then I don't see why companies can't just spam you. Signal can centrally filter all messages you receive to make sure they don't have spam in them and block spammers messages from going through (but this is no different than what many mail providers also do). You can block individual contacts, but that doesn't help if there are a very large number of different accounts sending spam. You can whitelist your contacts, but then noone you don't know that wants to talk to you can contact you. It also doesn't stop known contacts from sending spam to you either because - They are forwarding spam messages to you, like chain letters. - They got a virus or some malware which sends spam to all their contacts - It's a "legit" company you need to receive communication with, but sends spam mixed with vital communication: marketing lists you get auto-opted into (imagine if all the "give us your email to read the article" pop overs got replaced with "add us on signal to read the article"), amazon sale ads, facebook constantly trying to entice you to go back on the site, etc. If signal replaced email, I don't see how it could remain spam free.

by Certhas 10y ago

__jal 10y ago

> What's the benefit of decentralization? No single point at which to apply judicial- and/or rubber-hose cryptography is the big one. I do agree that the problem-space of attempting to make a reasonable UI for GPG has been explored for a long time with no useful results. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, but it seems like that's a hopeless endeavor. It is worth asking why, though. I'm not a UI person, so apply appropriate weighting to my opinion. I think this is one area - application of the Unix philosophy to task-driven security software - results in software that only the really invested will use. A combination email encryption/key distribution system with most nonessential options stripped out, targeting one mail client (at least at first) might be simple enough to achieve something closer to Signal-level usability. And the rounding-errors can continue to use the full GPG for our weird open-source rituals. But who knows. Maybe the entire model is just too complicated for mere mortals.

lmm 10y ago
> the problem-space of attempting to make a reasonable UI for GPG has been explored for a long time with no useful results Has it? Have we ever had even e.g. 2 reasonably skilled design professionals spend a year trying? That would, I suspect, be much less effort than has gone into Signal et al. But still beyond the resources of volunteer-only FOSS, unfortunately.
NoGravitas 10y ago
I don't think the real problem with OpenPGP is the UI issues. OpenKeychain and K9-Mail together provide a not terrible UI for OpenPGP, and if someone wanted to more tightly integrate them with each other,the UI could probably be improved further. But PGP-over-SMTP would still leak important metadata, and you would still have problems with forward secrecy and key revocation. Matrix looks like a much better decentralized solution to build a new email infrastructure on. But there are still metadata leakage issues with federation, and there need to be some standards and an example implementation for email-over-matrix.
- lmm 10y ago
  > But PGP-over-SMTP would still leak important metadata, and you would still have problems with forward secrecy and key revocation. I don't think a well-integrated PGP-over-SMTP client would leak any more metadata than the likes of Signal does? Build in a good subkey rotation config and you'd solve most of the forward secrecy issues, and good defaults for how to treat revocation (including better expiry defaults) would resolve that issue. No?
  - NoGravitas 10y ago
    You would still leak unencrypted headers, which in SMTP are numerous and interesting. A client could minimize the useful content of the message headers, but you're always going to have at least the envelope headers available to every intermediate mail host. I do not know enough to be sure about your point about forward secrecy. You may be right.
    - e12e 10y ago
      Depends a bit what one considers integration: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_remailer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_remailer
    - lmm 10y ago
      > you're always going to have at least the envelope headers available to every intermediate mail host. Sure, so any intermediate server would see who was talking to who. But that's the case with Signal et al as well isn't it?
      - NoGravitas 10y ago
        Currently, yes.
      - cpach 10y ago
        ”But that's the case with Signal et al as well isn’t it?” No. ”Because your phone will be connecting to Signal’s servers, your cellular carrier can determine whether or not you are using the service. However, your carrier cannot gather any information about the individuals or groups with whom you are communicating.” Source: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ#what-about-metadata https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ#what-a...

lmm 10y ago

> What's the benefit of decentralization? Not being snarky, I just don't really see it. What does a decentralized PGP email have that I don't have with my Signal Messenger? It's a lot harder to block. You can have anyone run a mail server on any port (SSLed if necessary), which means you can use it for secure communications inside any "great firewall" (like that of China or Kazakhstan), or even in a country/region that's been cut off from the Internet (which we've seen happen for various amounts of time in Syria, Crimea, Turkey...). WhatsApp/Signal have a very limited version of this by getting makers of popular HTTPS services to work with them, but those services are subject to their own commercial pressures (all the big names have been known to collaborate with e.g. the Chinese authorities in the past) and attackers always have the option of just blocking those services outright. It rules out a whole class of attacks involving compromising the central servers and tricking the client into redoing an initial exchange. If the Signal client is implemented correctly this shouldn't be an issue, but it's an extra attack surface that simply doesn't exist for OpenPGP. Also compared to Signal et al it's more practical (though still difficult) to use pseudonymously, because a pseudonymous email address is eaiser than a pseudonymous phone number. Signal advocates talk about having deniability because your messages aren't provably signed by you, but I don't think that advantage exists in any reasonable threat model - if we're worried about a state adversary hunting down everyone who corresponded with dissident x, they'll find it easier to track down a phone number than an email address, and once they've tracked down one of x's correspondents (i.e. someone who has a phone with a number that exchanged messages with x) they're not going to be bothered by the fact that they don't have signed mathematical proof that this is the same person who corresponded with x. > Signal was designed from the ground up with UX in mind, and made several important trade offs for it Such as? At the protocol level I mean.

Certhas 10y ago
https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ One of the explicit protocol level trade offs is federation: > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we've developed requires centralization; it's entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.

m3rc 10y ago

Harder to prevent access to, harder to wire-tap. As other people pointed out WhatsApp has been blocked in countries before. Not to mention that with WhatsApp having a central location all messages are routed through we really don't have any guarantee that there isn't a compromised actor in there intercepting everything. Even if WhatsApp's crytpo is as flawless in implementation as we'd like FB still has access to all that metadata.

ekiru 10y ago
> Even if WhatsApp's crytpo is as flawless in implementation as we'd like FB still has access to all that metadata. Note that this argument is even more problematic for OpenPGP-encrypted email, as such email sends all metadata and some message data in plaintext.
- m3rc 10y ago
  I'm not advocating for WhatsApp or PGP encrypted email, I'm pointing out that people who make the line in the sand at "decentralized vs centralized" are boiling the problem too far down.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Note that this argument is even more problematic for OpenPGP-encrypted email, as such email sends all metadata and some message data in plaintext. I ususally respect tptacek a lot but when it comes to Whatsapp I actively avoid it if at all possible, preferring Telegram even if the crypto is more than questionable. Same goes for mail: I prefer it - even unencrypted - over Whatsapp. For some of us our treat model is more concerned about Facebook and less about major TLAs. With Whatsapp I have to expect that all metadata about me - and my friends - are fed into Facebook and datamined from here to eternity and back again or until the end of the world as we know it. I have little to hide but given the catastrophically bad ad targeting of Facebook (yes, I am still a happily married father, a Java developer, a Norwegian. I don't need ANY more ads for dating websites until I specifically change my profile to let you know, THANK YOU. I would be happy to learn about useful developer tools or underrated fast food restaurants though. I also appreciated the uber ad with bundled coupon in google maps a few weeks ago and tested uber for the first time.) Given the same catastrophically bad targeting and given that it is the same owner who as far as I know hasn't yet apologised for his remarks about how trusting him was stupid it wouldn't surprise me if is more a WHEN than a IF that Facebook is going to sell everyones data to insurance companies, support scam call centers etc.

daptaq 10y ago

>What's the benefit of decentralization? Decentralization/Federalization + Standard Protocols. To really get the full potential, one needs both, since only then the network is truly free. Nobody can tell you how to access the Network, what software to use, who you can communicate with, etc. If you try using an unofficial WhatsApp client (eg. when you don't have you're phone), they can delete your account, and you can't do anything against that. This is IMO just too much control the central server has over the client.

tbirdz 10y ago

Decentralization is good to help protect the user against abuses from the central service provider. It also encourages competition, since the user can switch to a different service, and not be penalized by network effects preventing them from communicating with other people. I use MX records in my domain so that I can switch to any mail provider I want, and people will still be able to contact me with the same address. How is this possible in a centralized system? If I switch from WhatsApp to Signal, I lose all my contacts. If I want to keep communicating with them, then I have to convince them to switch to a different app, or just never stop using whatsapp. The network effects dynamic here makes it very difficult to switch from one centralized encrypted chat provider to another. If you try to leave, you lose all your contacts. The other thing I dislike is that they all seem to require a valid phone number. This puts you at the mercy of the phone company. If you change your phone number, then you have to get all your contacts to change their contact info for you. This is a huge step back, compared to email with own domain and MX records! The other thing I dislike about these centralized encrypted chat providers is the lack of client choice. 1 company can only support so many platforms, fair enough. But that will likely mean I'll never see the company develop a Linux desktop client, or a terminal based client for their network. And because of centralization, no-one else will be allowed to develop one either. In contrast, there are many different tools I can use for sending and receiving email on the Linux desktop, cli based backup tools, etc. And as far as the spam problem goes, I'm not sure how Signal/WhatsApp are better in this regard? If you have to give your signal address to out for people to communicate with you, or to do business with a company, then I don't see why companies can't just spam you. Signal can centrally filter all messages you receive to make sure they don't have spam in them and block spammers messages from going through (but this is no different than what many mail providers also do). You can block individual contacts, but that doesn't help if there are a very large number of different accounts sending spam. You can whitelist your contacts, but then noone you don't know that wants to talk to you can contact you. It also doesn't stop known contacts from sending spam to you either because - They are forwarding spam messages to you, like chain letters. - They got a virus or some malware which sends spam to all their contacts - It's a "legit" company you need to receive communication with, but sends spam mixed with vital communication: marketing lists you get auto-opted into (imagine if all the "give us your email to read the article" pop overs got replaced with "add us on signal to read the article"), amazon sale ads, facebook constantly trying to entice you to go back on the site, etc. If signal replaced email, I don't see how it could remain spam free.