5 ms·

A bill to allow consumers to control their own devices is pending in Congress

158 points by msq 10y ago

ethbro 10y ago
EFF's page on the bill: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/02/yoda-bill-would-let-you-own-and-sell-your-devices-re-introduced-congress https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/02/yoda-bill-would-let-yo... From the US House press release linked in the above, money quote: '“The YODA bill, today, I did file,” said Congressman Farenthold. “YODA simply states that your device belongs to you. If you wish to sell that device, the software that enables it to work is transferred along with it, and that any right you have to security and bug fixing of that software is transferred as well.”'
coldcode 10y ago
While it seems a good idea, how does this even work in practice?
- l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
  Simple. Re-register the device under your (buyer's) name or reset device to the factory defaults & re-register. Almost like buying a used car from somebody. The seller transfers the title to you, via a signature, after you pay. Then you the buyer now legally own the car & must register it with the DMV; get inspected, new plates etc.
- dqv 10y ago
  >how does this even work in practice? It will be legal to fix your own tractor. It will also be legal to change the software on devices you own.
  - bluGill 10y ago
    It is legal to fix your tractor. I work for John Deere (though of course do not speak for them), and we are proud that you can by the repair manuals for every tractor we ever made, and most parts are still available. We are made at the computer industry because some of our newer (We consider a 15 year old tractor fairly new though realistically it is probably worn out) tractors have chips that cannot be bought anymore. When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want: they want to disable the emissions controls. A qualified engineer (which most mechanics are not - but I suspect those reading this are) given the source code we don't give out can get our engines a little more fuel efficient at the expense of not meeting emissions, or a little more powerful at the expensive of being less reliable. When you read the above you will begin to understand why we made the engineering compromises we did, and see why we don't really want to give out the requested information. It isn't necessary to do repairs, but it is necessary to do things that you shouldn't do. That is not to say I'm against the idea of this bill, just that the justification you are being sold is built on a lie. I think this bill needs to be carefully written to address this.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      > When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want I don't own a tractor, but if I did, I'd want the option to be able to 'root' the tractor and install different software on it. You shouldn't have to ask permission, violate EULAs, or violate the law to innovate.
      - bluGill 10y ago
        So you say. And this crowd is probably more likely than average to do so. However would you really touch the engine - remember a mistake can destroy your engine, and there isn't much interesting there for the most part. What you would do it connect to the CAN bus and read all the data there - same as what most people do for cars - except there is a lot more interesting data for you to work with. There is not need to root the tractors, or install different software, just install your own computer, connect it to the CAN bus and do what you want. Our 10 year old computers that do this on a 200mhz CPU sell for $5000 - I'm convinced you would want something more modern that is also cheaper for your experiments. There is one exception to the above: if you want to do computer steering you need an encryption key that we don't generally make available to the public. There is too many safety concerns to let us just give that away.
        gue5t 10y ago
        Why does your security model treat your customers as the adversary? They can already steer the tractor in any direction they want, for any nefarious purpose. You're just removing their ability to automate away labor (steering). This is essentially an economic, not a safety-oriented, policy.
        chrisparsons 10y ago
        There's a very clear person at fault if said nefarious driver drives the tractor into a person/object-of-value. If it's an autopilot, the liability issues are much more murky.
        10y ago
exabrial 10y ago
Us HNers need to make some noise on Social Media about this. Anyone want to pick a day? Anyone have a connection to an editor over at Engadget or something we could have them highlight this?
Neliquat 10y ago
Please do all you can to support this. Send to your local makers, hackers, and geeks. Also kurig, john deere, and tesla owners may also be very excited.
j_m_b 10y ago
Just a reminder: https://mic.com/articles/167878/barney-frank-heres-how-to-not-waste-your-time-pressuring-lawmakers#.wRrguI2xn https://mic.com/articles/167878/barney-frank-heres-how-to-no... another user's summary: tl;dr 1. Make sure you’re registered to vote — lawmakers check. 2. Lawmakers don’t care about people outside of their district. 3. Your signature — physical or electronic — on a mass petition will mean little. 4. The communication must be individual. Email, Letter, Phone call. 5. Know where your representative stands. 6. Communicate — even if you and your representative disagree. 7. Say “thank you" - to reinforce the behavior you want 8. Enlist the help of friends in other districts. - they write their own reps
- wcunning 10y ago
  Phone Call >>>> Letter (Handwritten) > Letter (Typed) >> Email. Call your congressperson's local office and talk to someone on the phone. Offer to explain the reasoning behind the need for this law, and back that up with some credentialed knowledge of tech. If you've ever worked on your own car or modded a piece of hardware, so much the better.
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  Also as a reminder if you work for a company of a few thousand people: notice how the CEO doesn't care what you think? Now multiply your company population by 5x. Does it really sound like writing heartfelt letters will make a difference?
  - ssharp 10y ago
    1. Employees don't vote for their CEO. 2. There is strength in numbers. Your message might not get through but if it's the same message as 1,000 others it will. If you want change, cynicism like yours is crippling.
sndean 10y ago
Is this far enough along to have comments from congressmen/senators/Trump for us to know how this will end? It seems like something most would agree with
wheelerwj 10y ago
i feel like we do this every other year? yet somehow surveillance/privacy laws don't have to be renewed for years on end?
- gumby 10y ago
  > yet somehow surveillance/privacy laws don't have to be renewed for years on end? Actually they typically do (e.g. USA Patriot act). Sadly it's usually a rubber stamp with a bit of ritualistic, minor opposition attached.
- savanaly 10y ago
  Think of it rather like this: if a goal is hard to achieve then there won't exist a surefire solution (otherwise how is it hard to achieve?). Instead, you must work your way towards it consistently and diligently, in order to improve the odds of accomplishing it. Depending on the goal there are probably a lot of factors outside of our control, in this case high level political maneuvering and the fortune that is the unpredictable swings in uninformed public opinion. That doesn't make the effort that could possibly tip the scales wasted though. Whether all the effort is worth it depends on how you rate your odds and how effective you think your efforts are at increasing those odds. If you want to argue the particulars then that's legitimate, but simply pointing out that attempting something every year in the past didn't yield results doesn't prove it is irrational to continue doing it.
exodust 10y ago
Wish I could sell my iPad WITH the hundreds of apps I've purchased. It sucks that I can't. Maybe I can.. just sell the email address with the iPad and give buyer passwords. Buyer changes both email and iTunes password and it's a done deal. I used a generic web email to sign up to iTunes, I don't mind losing it. Apple would never find out. I wonder if anyone else has tried this? Edit.. (or maybe just change the iTunes account email address to the buyer's email is enough).
NeonVice 10y ago
Direct quote from the press release, "Last session, waylaid in committee YODA was." http://farenthold.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=399906 http://farenthold.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Documen...

158 points by msq 10y ago

EFF's page on the bill: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/02/yoda-bill-would-let-you-own-and-sell-your-devices-re-introduced-congress https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/02/yoda-bill-would-let-yo... From the US House press release linked in the above, money quote: '“The YODA bill, today, I did file,” said Congressman Farenthold. “YODA simply states that your device belongs to you. If you wish to sell that device, the software that enables it to work is transferred along with it, and that any right you have to security and bug fixing of that software is transferred as well.”'

coldcode 10y ago

While it seems a good idea, how does this even work in practice?

l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
Simple. Re-register the device under your (buyer's) name or reset device to the factory defaults & re-register. Almost like buying a used car from somebody. The seller transfers the title to you, via a signature, after you pay. Then you the buyer now legally own the car & must register it with the DMV; get inspected, new plates etc.
dqv 10y ago
>how does this even work in practice? It will be legal to fix your own tractor. It will also be legal to change the software on devices you own.
- bluGill 10y ago
  It is legal to fix your tractor. I work for John Deere (though of course do not speak for them), and we are proud that you can by the repair manuals for every tractor we ever made, and most parts are still available. We are made at the computer industry because some of our newer (We consider a 15 year old tractor fairly new though realistically it is probably worn out) tractors have chips that cannot be bought anymore. When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want: they want to disable the emissions controls. A qualified engineer (which most mechanics are not - but I suspect those reading this are) given the source code we don't give out can get our engines a little more fuel efficient at the expense of not meeting emissions, or a little more powerful at the expensive of being less reliable. When you read the above you will begin to understand why we made the engineering compromises we did, and see why we don't really want to give out the requested information. It isn't necessary to do repairs, but it is necessary to do things that you shouldn't do. That is not to say I'm against the idea of this bill, just that the justification you are being sold is built on a lie. I think this bill needs to be carefully written to address this.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want I don't own a tractor, but if I did, I'd want the option to be able to 'root' the tractor and install different software on it. You shouldn't have to ask permission, violate EULAs, or violate the law to innovate.
    - bluGill 10y ago
      So you say. And this crowd is probably more likely than average to do so. However would you really touch the engine - remember a mistake can destroy your engine, and there isn't much interesting there for the most part. What you would do it connect to the CAN bus and read all the data there - same as what most people do for cars - except there is a lot more interesting data for you to work with. There is not need to root the tractors, or install different software, just install your own computer, connect it to the CAN bus and do what you want. Our 10 year old computers that do this on a 200mhz CPU sell for $5000 - I'm convinced you would want something more modern that is also cheaper for your experiments. There is one exception to the above: if you want to do computer steering you need an encryption key that we don't generally make available to the public. There is too many safety concerns to let us just give that away.
      - gue5t 10y ago
        Why does your security model treat your customers as the adversary? They can already steer the tractor in any direction they want, for any nefarious purpose. You're just removing their ability to automate away labor (steering). This is essentially an economic, not a safety-oriented, policy.
        chrisparsons 10y ago
        There's a very clear person at fault if said nefarious driver drives the tractor into a person/object-of-value. If it's an autopilot, the liability issues are much more murky.
      - 10y ago

exabrial 10y ago

Us HNers need to make some noise on Social Media about this. Anyone want to pick a day? Anyone have a connection to an editor over at Engadget or something we could have them highlight this?

Neliquat 10y ago

Please do all you can to support this. Send to your local makers, hackers, and geeks. Also kurig, john deere, and tesla owners may also be very excited.

j_m_b 10y ago

Just a reminder: https://mic.com/articles/167878/barney-frank-heres-how-to-not-waste-your-time-pressuring-lawmakers#.wRrguI2xn https://mic.com/articles/167878/barney-frank-heres-how-to-no... another user's summary: tl;dr 1. Make sure you’re registered to vote — lawmakers check. 2. Lawmakers don’t care about people outside of their district. 3. Your signature — physical or electronic — on a mass petition will mean little. 4. The communication must be individual. Email, Letter, Phone call. 5. Know where your representative stands. 6. Communicate — even if you and your representative disagree. 7. Say “thank you" - to reinforce the behavior you want 8. Enlist the help of friends in other districts. - they write their own reps

wcunning 10y ago
Phone Call >>>> Letter (Handwritten) > Letter (Typed) >> Email. Call your congressperson's local office and talk to someone on the phone. Offer to explain the reasoning behind the need for this law, and back that up with some credentialed knowledge of tech. If you've ever worked on your own car or modded a piece of hardware, so much the better.
1_2__3 10y ago
Also as a reminder if you work for a company of a few thousand people: notice how the CEO doesn't care what you think? Now multiply your company population by 5x. Does it really sound like writing heartfelt letters will make a difference?
- ssharp 10y ago
  1. Employees don't vote for their CEO. 2. There is strength in numbers. Your message might not get through but if it's the same message as 1,000 others it will. If you want change, cynicism like yours is crippling.

sndean 10y ago

Is this far enough along to have comments from congressmen/senators/Trump for us to know how this will end? It seems like something most would agree with

wheelerwj 10y ago

i feel like we do this every other year? yet somehow surveillance/privacy laws don't have to be renewed for years on end?

gumby 10y ago
> yet somehow surveillance/privacy laws don't have to be renewed for years on end? Actually they typically do (e.g. USA Patriot act). Sadly it's usually a rubber stamp with a bit of ritualistic, minor opposition attached.
savanaly 10y ago
Think of it rather like this: if a goal is hard to achieve then there won't exist a surefire solution (otherwise how is it hard to achieve?). Instead, you must work your way towards it consistently and diligently, in order to improve the odds of accomplishing it. Depending on the goal there are probably a lot of factors outside of our control, in this case high level political maneuvering and the fortune that is the unpredictable swings in uninformed public opinion. That doesn't make the effort that could possibly tip the scales wasted though. Whether all the effort is worth it depends on how you rate your odds and how effective you think your efforts are at increasing those odds. If you want to argue the particulars then that's legitimate, but simply pointing out that attempting something every year in the past didn't yield results doesn't prove it is irrational to continue doing it.

exodust 10y ago

Wish I could sell my iPad WITH the hundreds of apps I've purchased. It sucks that I can't. Maybe I can.. just sell the email address with the iPad and give buyer passwords. Buyer changes both email and iTunes password and it's a done deal. I used a generic web email to sign up to iTunes, I don't mind losing it. Apple would never find out. I wonder if anyone else has tried this? Edit.. (or maybe just change the iTunes account email address to the buyer's email is enough).

NeonVice 10y ago

Direct quote from the press release, "Last session, waylaid in committee YODA was." http://farenthold.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=399906 http://farenthold.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Documen...