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The problem with ketogenic diets is not the weight loss. The diet works for weight loss, that is undisputed. The problems are in the longer term with elevated c

The problem with ketogenic diets is not the weight loss. The diet works for weight loss, that is undisputed. The problems are in the longer term with elevated cholesterol and increasing insulin resistance. Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24703903 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24703903 There's however tons of this. Most keto bloggers will try to tell you that increasing LDL-C is okay for different reasons (depending on who you read). That is however just not true. The link between LDL-C and heart disease is very strong and has been proven over decades.

bosie 10y ago
> The diet works for weight loss, that is undisputed All I could find was this (although it doesn't seem like they were checking ketone levels) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311279409_Visceral_adiposity_and_metabolic_syndrome_after_very_high-fat_and_low-fat_isocaloric_diets_a_randomized_controlled_trial_12 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311279409_Visceral_... Do you have a study that shows ketogenic diets are indeed better for weight loss than other diets?
- Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
  I do not have one. But I also never said it was better (!). I merely said that it works. People on a keto diet often say something along the lines of "Oh, keto is such a good diet. I lost 20 pounds with it". And I believe them. But that should not be the only measure of how good a diet is for you. Weight is important but not everything.
  - bosie 10y ago
    Ok, fair enough. I just figured that almost any very-low-carb diet would lead to a 15 or 20 pounds weight loss, due to the water loss. Due to the difficulty of the diet (for some), I just always have a hard time recommending it or bringing it up compared to a 'regular' low carb diet.
    - Neliquat 10y ago
      The water loss in the beginning is real, and accounts for most 1st month loss. After that comes the real progress. Some find the inital loss to be motivating, others feel the lull after is the opposite.
croon 10y ago
> The problems are in the longer term with elevated cholesterol... From your link: > These differences were not significant at 24 months. ----------- > and increasing insulin resistance. I'm going to need to insist on sources on this.
- Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
  Insulin resistance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427477 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427477 As for the cholesterol, the study I linked was probably not a very good example - sorry. Saturated fat does raise cholesterol however - so unless you are on a vegan low carb diet, you will see it rise. (IF you keep your weight steady, weight loss almost always lowers cholesterol)
  - croon 10y ago
    Counter source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264021/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264021/
    - Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
      Losing weight, especially fat does wonders for insulin sensitivity, though. The low carb group lost 6.2 kg of fat. That is a lot. I do wonder what happens if you look at insulin sensitivity when weight and fat mass remains mostly neutral. I do not know if there are studies done on that (in humans). I will have a look around.
      - croon 10y ago
        > Losing weight, especially fat does wonders for insulin sensitivity, though. Agreed. > The low carb group lost 6.2 kg of fat. That is a lot. I do wonder what happens if you look at insulin sensitivity when weight and fat mass remains mostly neutral. I do not know if there are studies done on that (in humans). I will have a look around. Sure, but if it's purely weight dependant, then high fat isn't a factor. And if it's not, why did it increase sensitivity? I'm not trying to say that fat is the one solution to everything, but I'm definitely saying it's not the one cause for everything. I can cite multiple studies showing the various detriments of carbs, and likewise the pitfalls of fat, but when the circumstances are key, then isn't that simply the answer? Don't be afraid of butter and eggs, don't be afraid of rice and carrots. Eat everything in moderation. Maybe stay away from sugar and deep fried treats?
boothead 10y ago
I thought that LDL-P had been determined to be a more reliable indicator of heart disease risk? Also hasn't heard of insulin resistance as an effect of ketogenic diets... What's the mechanism for that, do you know?

bosie 10y ago

> The diet works for weight loss, that is undisputed All I could find was this (although it doesn't seem like they were checking ketone levels) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311279409_Visceral_adiposity_and_metabolic_syndrome_after_very_high-fat_and_low-fat_isocaloric_diets_a_randomized_controlled_trial_12 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311279409_Visceral_... Do you have a study that shows ketogenic diets are indeed better for weight loss than other diets?

Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
I do not have one. But I also never said it was better (!). I merely said that it works. People on a keto diet often say something along the lines of "Oh, keto is such a good diet. I lost 20 pounds with it". And I believe them. But that should not be the only measure of how good a diet is for you. Weight is important but not everything.
- bosie 10y ago
  Ok, fair enough. I just figured that almost any very-low-carb diet would lead to a 15 or 20 pounds weight loss, due to the water loss. Due to the difficulty of the diet (for some), I just always have a hard time recommending it or bringing it up compared to a 'regular' low carb diet.
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    The water loss in the beginning is real, and accounts for most 1st month loss. After that comes the real progress. Some find the inital loss to be motivating, others feel the lull after is the opposite.

croon 10y ago

> The problems are in the longer term with elevated cholesterol... From your link: > These differences were not significant at 24 months. ----------- > and increasing insulin resistance. I'm going to need to insist on sources on this.

Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
Insulin resistance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427477 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427477 As for the cholesterol, the study I linked was probably not a very good example - sorry. Saturated fat does raise cholesterol however - so unless you are on a vegan low carb diet, you will see it rise. (IF you keep your weight steady, weight loss almost always lowers cholesterol)
- croon 10y ago
  Counter source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264021/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264021/
  - Xdafjgneoiwe 10y ago
    Losing weight, especially fat does wonders for insulin sensitivity, though. The low carb group lost 6.2 kg of fat. That is a lot. I do wonder what happens if you look at insulin sensitivity when weight and fat mass remains mostly neutral. I do not know if there are studies done on that (in humans). I will have a look around.
    - croon 10y ago
      > Losing weight, especially fat does wonders for insulin sensitivity, though. Agreed. > The low carb group lost 6.2 kg of fat. That is a lot. I do wonder what happens if you look at insulin sensitivity when weight and fat mass remains mostly neutral. I do not know if there are studies done on that (in humans). I will have a look around. Sure, but if it's purely weight dependant, then high fat isn't a factor. And if it's not, why did it increase sensitivity? I'm not trying to say that fat is the one solution to everything, but I'm definitely saying it's not the one cause for everything. I can cite multiple studies showing the various detriments of carbs, and likewise the pitfalls of fat, but when the circumstances are key, then isn't that simply the answer? Don't be afraid of butter and eggs, don't be afraid of rice and carrots. Eat everything in moderation. Maybe stay away from sugar and deep fried treats?

boothead 10y ago

I thought that LDL-P had been determined to be a more reliable indicator of heart disease risk? Also hasn't heard of insulin resistance as an effect of ketogenic diets... What's the mechanism for that, do you know?