3 ms·

It's really depressing that this kind of thing is even needed for the US. As a citizen with a lot of privileged status, I'd personally be pushing back a lot if

by rdl 10y ago

It's really depressing that this kind of thing is even needed for the US. As a citizen with a lot of privileged status, I'd personally be pushing back a lot if any US CBP person ever asked me for anything beyond proof of citizenship and the bare minimum to show I'm not carrying contraband. I'd consider standing up to that as a way to help other people who can't as easily stand up to it. On the other hand when I'm visiting a foreign country on a visa, I'm in a similarly disadvantaged position. (As an aside, if anyone in security is ever looking for a trustworthy and accurate journalist, I strongly endorse Andy Greenberg; consistently good at respecting "on the record" vs. "off the record", and he actually asks good questions.)

ndh2 10y ago
> I'd consider standing up to that What does that even mean? They'll detain you or deny entry. Then what?
- rdl 10y ago
  I'm a US citizen. Aside from "is this actually Ryan Lackey, the US citizen?", immigration has no power to keep me out of the country. "Do you have reason to believe I'm someone other than the US Citizen in this passport? Please articulate your specific reasons for concern." is itself a pretty solid validation of "this guy is 1) a US citizen 2) knows the law 3) is likely to have >50 lawyers as friends and will pursue the matter happily. I'm really polite/friendly with ICE/CBP -- usually all I get is "welcome home", very infrequently they ask "where were you?" -- but in principle they can hassle people. Customs has some additional power -- do they believe you're transporting contraband -- illegal items, untaxed items, or dangerous items (agricultural contact). But since I never travel with illegal items, and generally have everything very nicely organized and minimalist, the only real thing they could claim is "you have digital files we want to access", and that is 1) an emerging area of law and 2) exactly the battle I want to fight. In general the law is on the side of citizens not turning over data at borders, although it's nowhere near as settled as most other things.
  - ilaksh 10y ago
    Please do put yourself in this position and refuse to give your password to unlock your phone or social media accounts. You may be detained and have your phone or laptop confiscated. In which case you can try to sue them, which I agree we all need to attempt to stand up to this sort of thing. For me though, I cannot currently not afford to lose my phone to make a point on principal. But the reality is that customs and other agencies in places like airports seem to be getting away with pretty much any sort of invasion of privacy they want, very consistently, so things may not go the way you assume.
  - sithadmin 10y ago
    >I'm a US citizen. Aside from "is this actually Ryan Lackey, the US citizen?", immigration has no power to keep me out of the country. This is a dangerously simplistic view of the US security apparatus that will almost certainly backfire on you if you actually try to test it out. If you happen to resist inquiries in any meaningful way, there's a significant chance that they will seize everything you're carrying, find a means to force you into unlocking your digital devices, then hit them with a fine-toothed comb until they find enough to a straw-man justification to continue detaining you and making your life hell. A few sarcastic or otherwise disestablishmentarian remarks to a CBP offer it all it takes to turn a minute-long interaction into a days or weeks-long holiday in a detention cell. And sure, the extent to which CBP has the right to pry into your digital life is still an emerging area of law, but in the status quo, things lean very much in CBP's (and whatever other law enforcement agencies they decide to pull in) favor. Sure, if you're a US citizen, they'll likely need to eventually let you in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're out of trouble at that point either. At the very least, you're now a strong candidate for continued surveillance, if not further sanctioning, depending on how the information collected during your re-entry to the country might correlate you with various 'risks to national security'.
    - rdl 10y ago
      I would be exceptionally surprised if they did anything beyond ~hours of detention and confiscating as much stuff as they possibly could to "investigate" (essentially as punishment).
type0 10y ago
> On the other hand when I'm visiting a foreign country on a visa, I'm in a similarly disadvantaged position. US citizens need to expect that this kind of thing will spread to other countries. Unless your government will be able to pressure other countries to make americans excepted from such laws abroad. I think what we essentially will see in the future would be a different kind of border control based on nationality even through the travel agreements would basically be the same.

by rdl 10y ago

ndh2 10y ago

> I'd consider standing up to that What does that even mean? They'll detain you or deny entry. Then what?

rdl 10y ago
I'm a US citizen. Aside from "is this actually Ryan Lackey, the US citizen?", immigration has no power to keep me out of the country. "Do you have reason to believe I'm someone other than the US Citizen in this passport? Please articulate your specific reasons for concern." is itself a pretty solid validation of "this guy is 1) a US citizen 2) knows the law 3) is likely to have >50 lawyers as friends and will pursue the matter happily. I'm really polite/friendly with ICE/CBP -- usually all I get is "welcome home", very infrequently they ask "where were you?" -- but in principle they can hassle people. Customs has some additional power -- do they believe you're transporting contraband -- illegal items, untaxed items, or dangerous items (agricultural contact). But since I never travel with illegal items, and generally have everything very nicely organized and minimalist, the only real thing they could claim is "you have digital files we want to access", and that is 1) an emerging area of law and 2) exactly the battle I want to fight. In general the law is on the side of citizens not turning over data at borders, although it's nowhere near as settled as most other things.
- ilaksh 10y ago
  Please do put yourself in this position and refuse to give your password to unlock your phone or social media accounts. You may be detained and have your phone or laptop confiscated. In which case you can try to sue them, which I agree we all need to attempt to stand up to this sort of thing. For me though, I cannot currently not afford to lose my phone to make a point on principal. But the reality is that customs and other agencies in places like airports seem to be getting away with pretty much any sort of invasion of privacy they want, very consistently, so things may not go the way you assume.
- sithadmin 10y ago
  >I'm a US citizen. Aside from "is this actually Ryan Lackey, the US citizen?", immigration has no power to keep me out of the country. This is a dangerously simplistic view of the US security apparatus that will almost certainly backfire on you if you actually try to test it out. If you happen to resist inquiries in any meaningful way, there's a significant chance that they will seize everything you're carrying, find a means to force you into unlocking your digital devices, then hit them with a fine-toothed comb until they find enough to a straw-man justification to continue detaining you and making your life hell. A few sarcastic or otherwise disestablishmentarian remarks to a CBP offer it all it takes to turn a minute-long interaction into a days or weeks-long holiday in a detention cell. And sure, the extent to which CBP has the right to pry into your digital life is still an emerging area of law, but in the status quo, things lean very much in CBP's (and whatever other law enforcement agencies they decide to pull in) favor. Sure, if you're a US citizen, they'll likely need to eventually let you in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're out of trouble at that point either. At the very least, you're now a strong candidate for continued surveillance, if not further sanctioning, depending on how the information collected during your re-entry to the country might correlate you with various 'risks to national security'.
  - rdl 10y ago
    I would be exceptionally surprised if they did anything beyond ~hours of detention and confiscating as much stuff as they possibly could to "investigate" (essentially as punishment).

type0 10y ago

> On the other hand when I'm visiting a foreign country on a visa, I'm in a similarly disadvantaged position. US citizens need to expect that this kind of thing will spread to other countries. Unless your government will be able to pressure other countries to make americans excepted from such laws abroad. I think what we essentially will see in the future would be a different kind of border control based on nationality even through the travel agreements would basically be the same.