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As expected on HN I am not surprised to see people defending one's right to privacy and encryption. However, what's the solution then ? If all the "bad guys"

As expected on HN I am not surprised to see people defending one's right to privacy and encryption. However, what's the solution then ? If all the "bad guys" who distribute illegal material do so encrypted volumes and refuse to give up the decryption key then what do we do ? It's a different world now; the police can't just take a drill out and open the safe.

remotebug 10y ago
Gather evidence instead of hoping you can convict someone of evil-doings based on their own records?
iamdave 10y ago
If all the "bad guys" who distribute illegal material do so encrypted volumes and refuse to give up the decryption key then what do we do ? "Bad guys" still have fifth amendment protection. You prosecute, satisfy the burden of proof and hope a jury convicts. That's what you do. Outside of that, if you really want this changed, petition your representative to repeal the fifth amendment, I suppose?
- jordache 10y ago
  need to stop thinking from an american centric perspective.
  - iamdave 10y ago
    This is in response to a news story that happened in the United States, I thought we were remaining in that context. And if I'm to think outside of an American-centric viewpoint, what governing body do you point to that would protect someone's rights from being forced to provide evidence against themselves when being charged with a crime? or Is this something that ought not be considered either?
  - herbst 10y ago
    I think it is right to think in a american context here because no other western country would hold someone for so long just because he probably forgot his password. This is obviously a american issue.
AnonymousPlanet 10y ago
There is no god given right that demands to upturn every stone. Live with the fact that there is no solution that lets you look into the drives. Period.
coldtea 10y ago
>As expected on HN I am not surprised to see people defending one's right to privacy and encryption. However, what's the solution then ? If all the "bad guys" who distribute illegal material do so encrypted volumes and refuse to give up the decryption key then what do we do ? Why do we care for people distributing "illegal material" in the first place? And how come this "illegal material" doesn't ever get decrypted? Catch them then.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > Why do we care for people distributing "illegal material" in the first place? Is "distributing child pornography should not be a crime" really the hill you want to die on?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    No, it's the "abolish BS laws" hill. How about creating child pornography being a crime? That's what's actually hurtful.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      Pretty sure that already is a crime. But I gather there's a large quantity of the stuff that exists already. Your proposal ignores it - legalizes its distribution, in fact. Why?
      - shrimp_emoji 10y ago
        Actions such as crimes are traditionally illegal. Information about actions such as crime is traditionally legal. Should we ban all recordings of any crime under moralist or flimsy arguments such as that they encourage others to commit the crimes recorded? Not only would this expand the scope of "criminal" to include people who have not committed such crimes (and may never do so), but I think it's a futile and petulant exercise, albeit one with benefit to intrusive law enforcement (and I'm echoing feedback provided elsewhere in this thread).
michaelmrose 10y ago
They can hack his computer before nabbing him, grab tons of his data from connected providers, get a warrant to sneak in and plant one of several type of bugs that would allow them to aquire his pass phrase. Burst in while the machine is on and aquire the unlocked data or get the key from ram. Failing that they can convict him based on other evidence or at least convince him that they can and cut a deal for access. In the vital cases which are normally cited as examples of why we must allow cops to violate our right options abound. What's left is petty crap and police incompetence which serve as poor justification for giving up our rights.
terminado 10y ago
"bad guys" who distribute illegal material Honestly, I fail to see how or why this should be a problem, considering that no actual injuries are inflicted in the storage or possession of ones and zeroes. Sure, that's an obtuse abstraction, but honestly, the buck stops there. At the end of the day, they have a circuit encoded in a given state. Magnetic media that can be arbitrarily degaussed. It's not real. Stop prosecuting it. So, okay, you wanna argue. Let's get more specific. Bad things people can "have" encoded on their digital storage media: 1. stolen economic identifiers, such as credit card numbers, and other mechanisms of fraud 2. raster graphics and audio depicting nudity, or evidence of events that have since transpired, and prove culpability, via direct participation rather than simply the hoarding of collectible media files of whatever persuasion 3. preferences and settings that can correlate identity in other crimes, subscriber information such IMEI numbers and MAC addresses, and more 4. classified information restricted from being leaked among state actors or the general public 5. intellectual property that translates directly to business opportunities, insider trading, corporate espionage and other white collar crimes 6. copyrighted music and movies, oh noes! Listen. If it can fit onto a credit card sized device, it's already too late. So nothing is being stopped by this sort of search. The demand for relinquishing data, in any such situation is not unlike demanding all the things that people write on napkins and envelopes. Every scrap of paper in someone's pocket. Movie tickets, dry cleaning stubs, match books, and so on. Evidence of a crime? Possibly. Is everyone guilty until proven innocent? Gee, I don't know. Maybe we should just make everyone empty their pockets, and take pictures, just in case. The fact of that matter is that these are essentially fishing expeditions for item #3. It's not about "illegal data" at all, nothing is ever going to divert ones and zeroes as contraband. That simply doesn't happen, and doesn't work. It's about coming up with reasons to harass people, as vectors into prosecuting other crimes. Smoking out the paranoid, so that they crack under the pressure of getting sweated down in the hot seat.
- Paul-ish 10y ago
  If it is all 1s and 0s, I am curious how you feel about the NSA having a good deal of your personal information stored on their drives?
godelski 10y ago
As I see it, the root question is "Would we rather guilty men go free or innocent men be condemned?" We can't have a perfect justice system, so which direction are we going to choose?
Qantourisc 10y ago
Well if it's encrypted, how will you get a warrant for unknown data. And if you do have proof, then why do you need the data ? In these cases I think the only reliable and best way is to obtain the data by infiltration. It's a bit like asking a burglar to break in. You either have enough proof, or you catch them in the act.
mirimir 10y ago
I see these assholes as canaries. I don't mean to defend them in any way. But if they're vulnerable, so are we. At least potentially.

remotebug 10y ago

Gather evidence instead of hoping you can convict someone of evil-doings based on their own records?

iamdave 10y ago

If all the "bad guys" who distribute illegal material do so encrypted volumes and refuse to give up the decryption key then what do we do ? "Bad guys" still have fifth amendment protection. You prosecute, satisfy the burden of proof and hope a jury convicts. That's what you do. Outside of that, if you really want this changed, petition your representative to repeal the fifth amendment, I suppose?

jordache 10y ago
need to stop thinking from an american centric perspective.
- iamdave 10y ago
  This is in response to a news story that happened in the United States, I thought we were remaining in that context. And if I'm to think outside of an American-centric viewpoint, what governing body do you point to that would protect someone's rights from being forced to provide evidence against themselves when being charged with a crime? or Is this something that ought not be considered either?
- herbst 10y ago
  I think it is right to think in a american context here because no other western country would hold someone for so long just because he probably forgot his password. This is obviously a american issue.

AnonymousPlanet 10y ago

There is no god given right that demands to upturn every stone. Live with the fact that there is no solution that lets you look into the drives. Period.

coldtea 10y ago

>As expected on HN I am not surprised to see people defending one's right to privacy and encryption. However, what's the solution then ? If all the "bad guys" who distribute illegal material do so encrypted volumes and refuse to give up the decryption key then what do we do ? Why do we care for people distributing "illegal material" in the first place? And how come this "illegal material" doesn't ever get decrypted? Catch them then.

throwanem 10y ago
> Why do we care for people distributing "illegal material" in the first place? Is "distributing child pornography should not be a crime" really the hill you want to die on?
- coldtea 10y ago
  No, it's the "abolish BS laws" hill. How about creating child pornography being a crime? That's what's actually hurtful.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Pretty sure that already is a crime. But I gather there's a large quantity of the stuff that exists already. Your proposal ignores it - legalizes its distribution, in fact. Why?
    - shrimp_emoji 10y ago
      Actions such as crimes are traditionally illegal. Information about actions such as crime is traditionally legal. Should we ban all recordings of any crime under moralist or flimsy arguments such as that they encourage others to commit the crimes recorded? Not only would this expand the scope of "criminal" to include people who have not committed such crimes (and may never do so), but I think it's a futile and petulant exercise, albeit one with benefit to intrusive law enforcement (and I'm echoing feedback provided elsewhere in this thread).

michaelmrose 10y ago

They can hack his computer before nabbing him, grab tons of his data from connected providers, get a warrant to sneak in and plant one of several type of bugs that would allow them to aquire his pass phrase. Burst in while the machine is on and aquire the unlocked data or get the key from ram. Failing that they can convict him based on other evidence or at least convince him that they can and cut a deal for access. In the vital cases which are normally cited as examples of why we must allow cops to violate our right options abound. What's left is petty crap and police incompetence which serve as poor justification for giving up our rights.

terminado 10y ago

"bad guys" who distribute illegal material Honestly, I fail to see how or why this should be a problem, considering that no actual injuries are inflicted in the storage or possession of ones and zeroes. Sure, that's an obtuse abstraction, but honestly, the buck stops there. At the end of the day, they have a circuit encoded in a given state. Magnetic media that can be arbitrarily degaussed. It's not real. Stop prosecuting it. So, okay, you wanna argue. Let's get more specific. Bad things people can "have" encoded on their digital storage media: 1. stolen economic identifiers, such as credit card numbers, and other mechanisms of fraud 2. raster graphics and audio depicting nudity, or evidence of events that have since transpired, and prove culpability, via direct participation rather than simply the hoarding of collectible media files of whatever persuasion 3. preferences and settings that can correlate identity in other crimes, subscriber information such IMEI numbers and MAC addresses, and more 4. classified information restricted from being leaked among state actors or the general public 5. intellectual property that translates directly to business opportunities, insider trading, corporate espionage and other white collar crimes 6. copyrighted music and movies, oh noes! Listen. If it can fit onto a credit card sized device, it's already too late. So nothing is being stopped by this sort of search. The demand for relinquishing data, in any such situation is not unlike demanding all the things that people write on napkins and envelopes. Every scrap of paper in someone's pocket. Movie tickets, dry cleaning stubs, match books, and so on. Evidence of a crime? Possibly. Is everyone guilty until proven innocent? Gee, I don't know. Maybe we should just make everyone empty their pockets, and take pictures, just in case. The fact of that matter is that these are essentially fishing expeditions for item #3. It's not about "illegal data" at all, nothing is ever going to divert ones and zeroes as contraband. That simply doesn't happen, and doesn't work. It's about coming up with reasons to harass people, as vectors into prosecuting other crimes. Smoking out the paranoid, so that they crack under the pressure of getting sweated down in the hot seat.

Paul-ish 10y ago
If it is all 1s and 0s, I am curious how you feel about the NSA having a good deal of your personal information stored on their drives?

godelski 10y ago

As I see it, the root question is "Would we rather guilty men go free or innocent men be condemned?" We can't have a perfect justice system, so which direction are we going to choose?

Qantourisc 10y ago

Well if it's encrypted, how will you get a warrant for unknown data. And if you do have proof, then why do you need the data ? In these cases I think the only reliable and best way is to obtain the data by infiltration. It's a bit like asking a burglar to break in. You either have enough proof, or you catch them in the act.

mirimir 10y ago

I see these assholes as canaries. I don't mean to defend them in any way. But if they're vulnerable, so are we. At least potentially.