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I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. I shop there routinely and buy mostly the non packaged stuff. Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper t

by anu7df 10y ago

I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. I shop there routinely and buy mostly the non packaged stuff. Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper than in most chains and I really have not found any other place where I can get grass fed (tasty), pasteurized (convenient), non homogenized (yes it makes a difference. In taste and texture and arguably healthier) milk. Of course I do not buy the silly precut fruits and stuff. But if someone finds it convenient and doesn't mind spending the money I don't care. But in the end I shop there because most stuff there is made from good simple ingredients and I don't have to spend a long time reading ingredient lists especially the ones that changes often

hijinks 10y ago
I tend to agree that the fresh fruits and veggies are pretty much the same price as competitors (really only experience is Safeway) What I do find as a plus is Whole Foods tends to get more stuff locally if they can and a store like Safeway is going more regional or to Mexico to keep its costs down. I'll pay a little more to have my fresh food being sourced locally and more time to ripen on the vine then ripen in a truck.
matwood 10y ago
> Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper than in most chains I recently discovered the above, and after paying attention there are many items that are less expensive at WF. The whole fresh fruits and vegetables are the same price or cheaper than other local chains, and are also very high quality. The only place that beats them on price is Walmart, but quality is hit and miss (normally miss). I have found beer and wine to be $1-$2 cheaper at WF than local chains. Not everything of course, but I tend to keep the same wine and beer around the house so I notice pricing. Good cheese can also be had for less money at WF. The WF brand whole bean coffee is also cheaper than anything else I have found locally. If frugality is the goal I have found that for most packaged stuff Walmart is the way to go. Then WF for fruits and veggies, and finally Harris Teeter (local chain in the south) for meats (never ending special boneless/skinless chicken breasts are always $1.99/lb).
- angry-hacker 10y ago
  Don't you have markets in U.S where you can buy straight from farmers? It would be more convenient and helps locals. If you care about organic and fresh stuff.
  - vinay427 10y ago
    Yes, there are certainly a good number of these, but one of the main reasons I would go to a grocery stores is to buy non-local produce. For instance, avocados or various other fruits aren't grown anywhere near where I live.
  - stonemetal 10y ago
    It is really hit or miss. It takes a large city like Dallas to have a permanent farmers market. Smaller towns might have a month where they have a farmer's market every weekend, but nothing the rest of the year.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      I would say that even small towns have farmers markets that last most of the growing season (like even a village of 10,000 will often have one all summer, although it of course won't be comparable to one in a large city). And CSAs (Community-supported agriculture) are becoming more popular.
      - sanderjd 10y ago
        This doesn't seem true to me at all. Where do you live? My biggish (100k) crazy-for-organics town has one that is only open on one weeknight and one weekend morning, only in the summer. My medium (25k) midwestern home town only has big box groceries.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        I was unclear, I meant weekly markets that last the summer. I was partly responding to the have a month in the post I replied to. It's typical that they run more of the season than that.
carlmcqueen 10y ago
I don't really see a business analysis as band wagon whole foods hate, if you're referring to the article. However, the lawsuit they faced with 'vegetable infused water' without the vegetables was a pretty serious black mark against them that people didn't forget.
gregd 10y ago
"I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip." Then you must not have many choices available in your area to get the same items for less. Natural Grocers, Aldi, Trader Joe's, Market of Choice, New Seasons, Sprouts...the list goes on and on.
- acdha 10y ago
  I have tons of choices available and share the GP's question about the trendiness of piling on the hate train. I've done that comparison in a fair number of cities and “same items for less” has never been true on a consistent basis: it's either a small percentage either way or comparing different things. I love Trader Joe's but I shop there for the store brand items and a few specials. At every location I've been to (CA, CT, MA, DC, FL) the vegetable selection is far more limited than Whole Foods and generally lower quality. That doesn't mean that one is better or worse than the other, only that they're different businesses with different models. TJ's loves to stock things they can get a deal on, which is great but limited. This is true of the local supermarkets: yes, they stock a lot of organic options now. No, they're not better quality and they're usually more expensive because it's a premium niche category for them but a core product for WF. If you look at the loss leader specials, yes, they're often cheaper but some things in your cart are also more expensive. I think this goes back to people relying on anecdotes instead of data and the psychological weight of a few high-end items skewing perception of the entire store. People see some super high-end olive oil, say “oh my god, can you believe how much that costs?!”, and forget the more affordable option on the same shelf or that the store they're comparing it to didn't even stock the equivalent grade of product.
  - gajjanag 10y ago
    > I have tons of choices available and share the GP's question about the trendiness of piling on the hate train. I've done that comparison in a fair number of cities and “same items for less” has never been true on a consistent basis: it's either a small percentage either way or comparing different things. This depends on a lot on the "consumption basket". The small percentage comment is definitely not true for some categories of products. Concretely, consider cheese. Genuine imported Parmigiano-Reggiano can be had outside Whole Foods for < $14 a pound, with extremes like Costco selling it for $12 I believe. Whole Foods charges $20 for this, a ~ 50% higher price. Similar remarks apply to other high grade cheeses. More generally, although Whole Foods keeps the pricing of their store brand products competitive (e.g the 365 value stuff), they certainly do mark up many high quality items significantly.
aczerepinski 10y ago
The comments here are almost exclusively about the price and quality of products, with "store x has basically the same thing for less money" being a common theme. Whole Foods nails the shopping experience for those who care about intangibles. It's always clean. It's always well stocked. They have very educated cashiers who can move lines quickly and make autonomous decisions when an item doesn't ring up. They can give $100 cash back so I don't need to hit the ATM ever. They don't have those horrendously buggy self checkouts. If you can trade money for time and convenience, WF is a great experience. After getting used to it, other stores are frustrating to me.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I've been in my local WF a few times and see what you mean, but never felt it to be worth the premium. I do most of my shopping at Trader Joe's, which has many of the same advantages but is also cheap. I can see it if the choices are WF or a crappy Giant or Safeway....
- tedmiston 10y ago
  Maybe this varies by geography but the Kroger stores around me all satisfy these constraints. The WF near me is actually a much slower checkout experience because they have less cashiers open (often ~2) and no Uscans, so I either wait in line longer or avoid it. At WF, I've waited in line for 10+ minutes before getting to the register but that's never happened at Kroger.
- Overtonwindow 10y ago
  I disagree. Cashiers are no more intelligent at whole foods as they are at a Safeway. They barely talk or acknowledge your presence. Major stores are clean and neat. That's SOP. $100 back in cash? Why is that important? I give them points for letting me use Apple Pay but beyond that Whole Foods "experiance" is no different than a Kroger, Wegmans, or Sprouts. Maybe you're living in a really run down area where Whole Foods is the only well managed place.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Honestly, I like the atmosphere in Market Basket better. It's crowded, busy, and full of cheap staple goods -- exactly the way a supermarket should be.
vidoc 10y ago
I routinely shop there as well, generally speaking, their fruits and vegetables despite being a tad more expensive are of higher quality than most places. I've also observed that WF stores usually have sufficient mancount to deliver decent checkout performances. The staff is always friendly and helpful and the cashiers in particular always impress me with their handling of the mandatory sterile discussion. When they ask me whether I would like a second bag, I sometimes feel them genuinely worried about what could happen otherwise.
- ronaldj 10y ago
  Checkout performance is key. It's one of the main reasons I shop there. Even at peak times, the wait time seems to be an order of magnitude less than checking out at Safeway. Also, the person checking you out at Whole Foods is usually happier and nicer than the person checking you out at Safeway.
e40 10y ago
Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper than in most chains That is clearly not the case in the Bay Area. Whole Foods is the most expensive place you can shop around here.
- sidlls 10y ago
  We must live in different places in the Bay Area, or else you're not factoring in quality. I have two stores within biking distance (15-20 min or less) and perhaps four in driving distance (same time in city traffic). I'm not counting convenience stores or other similar dives. With one exception (meat) on a quality basis Whole Foods averages out to be the same price as any other store I have shopped at. Meat is the exception because it averages to be about $1/lb more than other grocers.
  - e40 10y ago
    Notice I was replying to comments about fruits and vegetables. For meat, Costco is cheaper and higher quality, compared to WF and all of them.
  - zaroth 10y ago
    My own experience is that WF meat is not better than Safeway and easily 50% more expensive. My local Safeway sold USDA Prime filet for $18.99/lb, the Choice at WF was always at least $26 and sometimes $32/lb. My wife has come home with salmon from WF marked at $32/lb and I nearly had a heart attack. $12/lb for the same at Safeway, sometimes $8.99. It seems to me WF sets prices assuming you just aren't looking and don't know better. It's a hell of a markup for shopping ambiance.
    - WillPostForFood 10y ago
      Are you comparing like for like? I'm a very frugal shopper who will go to both stores in a trip to save $1, and I've observed that the high-end organic products are very similar in price. Organic milk at Safeway is about the same price as organic milk at WF, but there are many cheaper non-organic options at Safeway. Grass fed hamburger or steak is about the same price, but there are also cheaper non-organic, non-grass fed options at Safeway.
kiliantics 10y ago
My gripe with wholefoods goes beyond the price. I take issue with their business ethics and general operating philosophy. It's a pretty typical appeal to the "conscious" consumer that will only look skin deep when making a decision about products. It's a kind of slacktivism, wholefoods marketing team tells me that they care about the environment and the small farmer so surely buying from them is the most ethical consumption. I believe it is misleading though. The company's only goal is profit and this is very evident when you hear their libertarian CEO speak. He's a sociopath preying on the good will of middle class liberals. Combine that with the exploitation of cheap prison labour as a perfect example of the company's principles in execution and it just leaves a bad taste with those seasonal organic vegetables. Edit: If you really want to get tasty, fresh, sustainable, local, and organic food then join or start a local food co-operative. This gets everyone a fair price for high quality products along with paying people fairly for their produce and work. It's also completely democratic so all practices are decided upon by the members and not just by some megalomanic CEO or greedy shareholders.
- _delirium 10y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of the CEO in general, but I get the impression he really does care about the organic-foods part. There are more liberals who fall in that category, yes, but there are definitely libertarians into it as well. What's probably more unusual is that he's a wealthy big business type of libertarian who also likes organic foods, while the libertarians into organic food are more often the off-the-grid type.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  A company's goal should be profit. Why is profit a bad word so often? They aren't abusing customers or employees to get that profit... both of those groups regularly praise the company... so I don't see the problem in seeking as much profit as you can. Thats how free market works, right? And if they go to far in the name of profit, they will see it reflected and profits drop... on a site created around startups, its interesting that the "profit" as a bad word is still a thing here... You can want to make as much profit as possible while ALSO doing the right thing ethically.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
Our local Kroger has that along with tons of cheap, organic stuff. They also focus on quality of produce, service, etc. They can't match Whole Foods in how well the store is run since they're cut-throat in cost cutting. They do just good enough that all kinds of customers tolerate them. Gabriel's Worse is Better applied to grocery stores haha. I'm totally unsurprised by the article seeing Walmart, Costco, and Kroger are one-stop shops for regular and organic items at much cheaper prices. I expected this to happen to Whole Foods. They should double down on the better shopping experience (less crowds) and offering obscure items big retails are too greedy to carry.
Alex3917 10y ago
If there is a green market in your area, you can get a much wider variety of produce and it will be significantly less expensive. If Whole Foods is the only thing in your area it's not a bad option, but it's definitely possible to do much better.
wpietri 10y ago
> I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. I think there has long been a resentment of them. 20 years ago I did some technical work for a natural foods broker. They knew the wholesale price for all sorts of organic and alternative foodstuffs. They were just astounded by Whole Foods markups as compared with other vendors. If I recall rightly, the Whole Foods marketing also rubbed them the wrong way; it had strong class-based elements, taking the natural foods industry from a "power to the people" feel to a "this is fancy and high class" feel. In a business sense, they've clearly done well by it. They're at the intersection of rising inequality and rising concern over what we eat. But that limits them too; trying for "mass-market luxury" is a precarious position. You end up resented by the true luxury fans as cheapening something they care about. And other companies, ones not constrained by luxury, can go after the mass-market end of things. Plus they still have the essential contradiction between commercial exploitation and the natural do-goodery of the organic foods types. So the hate seems pretty plausible to me. Their old shtick is working less well; the grocery market is really different 20 years on. They'll need to find a new shtick, but I don't think that will be an easy transition.
- base698 10y ago
  The genius of Whole Foods to me was that in the same store you'll see a $35,000 a year new college grad shopping along side a $300,000 a year professional. It hit the upmarket class stuff and kept the hippy stuff too so the educated group would aspire to go there. This as opposed to Fresh Market, which was purely upmarket/upper class.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  Very well said. This is why I see TJ's eating Whole Foods's lunch. TJ's started from the opposite end. Like what I imagine possibly happening to iOS at the hands of Android, this is a true example of "disruptive" in its earlier definition -- start down market and move up, not the other way around. > Disruptive innovation, a term of art coined by Clayton Christensen, describes a process by which a product or service takes root initially in simple applications at the bottom of a market and then relentlessly moves up market, eventually displacing established competitors.
dominotw 10y ago
>I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. exibit A: Whole Foods' $6 Asparagus Water Is Just Water With Three Stalks of Asparagus in It http://www.eater.com/2015/8/3/9090797/whole-foods-asparagus-water-wtf http://www.eater.com/2015/8/3/9090797/whole-foods-asparagus-...
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Surely, any chain of anything can have one-time, harmless, quality control problems at one location, without symbolizing some sort of corporate identity?
  - dominotw 10y ago
    http://ny.eater.com/2015/6/24/8838453/whole-foods-overcharge-investigation http://ny.eater.com/2015/6/24/8838453/whole-foods-overcharge... City Sting Reveals Whole Foods Has Been Overcharging New Yorkers Since 2010
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Sure that's a more convincing example. Next time lead with that one. I've never shopped at Whole Foods BTW.
seattle_spring 10y ago
> I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip I think it's probably because they tried to capitalize on selling "non-GMO" products, which is a huge marketing scam that some consumers are finally wising up to. Don't believe me? Go find me some GMO oranges. Or GMO cilantro. Or GMO chocolate. Or GMO lettuce. Or GMO anything other than corn and soybeans. Want to know why you can't find them? Because they don't exist. That doesn't stop companies like Whole Foods from slapping a "non-GMO" label on them and charging 2x the price of Safeway.
fullshark 10y ago
I like their food/produce and generally consider it a good value. Their wine selection/prices are surprisingly weak though. The only thing I hate them for is selling/promoting snake oil. My guess is a lot of the hate towards Whole Foods is their clientele being perceived as snobby/out of touch/"richer than I am".
rotskoff 10y ago
It might be the case that this hate is not even grounded in a realistic financial assessment of the company. The reaction of Wall St. to this earnings report, which the WaPo presents as a sign of collapse, was, in fact, bullish. The stock closed up a few percent ($30.35) the next day from the previous day's close ($29.30). If you look more closely at their strategy, it seems like they're trying to enter a slower growth phase, where they simply focus on the markets that provide them steady profits. They are closing a few stores, but those stores were older, poorly performing locations. I can offer a more personal perspective: I currently live in the Bay Area but spend a fair amount of time in Manhattan, as well. When shopping in California, I essentially never go to Whole Foods because the produce prices are ridiculous in comparison to the high quality local grocers near my home. In Manhattan, however, I nearly exclusively shop at Whole Foods because the produce is reliably good, the 365 products are affordable, and the prices are fairly competitive (if not better than) many other options. Of course, there are less expensive stores that I could go to in New York, but they generally don't offer the convenience or quality.
Veratyr 10y ago
> non homogenized (yes it makes a difference. In taste and texture and arguably healthier) Could you elaborate on this? What's the argument for non-homogenized milk being healthier? Per Wikipedia: "The fat in milk normally separates from the water and collects at the top. Homogenization breaks the fat into smaller sizes so it no longer separates, allowing the sale of non-separating milk at any fat specification." I just don't understand how smaller fat particles are less healthy than large ones at the top (apart from perhaps the liquid milk being fattier, in which case you can simply buy milk with less fat).
- jelliclesfarm 10y ago
  If I may..even though the quote isn't attributed to me... It's really a long and involved answer but I am going to try my best to keep it simple. Raw milk that has fat(lipids), protein, amino acids and sugars(glucose) amongst other good stuff. Milk is essentially a suspension..that is fat suspended in the fluid. When you homogenize milk, it is passed through a fine nozzle so that it's no longer a suspension. It is all one homogenous uniform mixture..with everything mixed and melded together. What happens is that the lipids in the original raw state is encased within a thin membrane called milk fat globule membrane..that's why the cream is 'suspended' and separate from the liquid milk itself. This membrane/cell wall of the lipid is now shattered during the homogenization process. That membrane is there for a reason. Mammalian milk is the complete food for the offsprings..from an evolutionary pov, it has to contain everything to sustain the infant. Lactation is a highly expensive action for the mammalian mother..why would she give up so much resources and energy to design lipids and protein and other stuff so perfectly packaged in the medium that is suspension based raw milk delivery system? The fat globule membrane could be there for the right order in which to digest or process the nutrients for the most optimal and complete food source for the baby. Modern machinations have altered the structure of milk protein/fats/sugars that full fat(aka regular) milk is considered unhealthy. Milk can cause indigestion..milk fats causes heart disease..the sugars are considered carbs. But it is really the perfect and complete food which has the exact delivery system that costs the mother so much to provide her offspring. Of course, the mother in this case is the cow from whose offsprings we steal the milk but the evolutionary argument for the structure of raw milk and the weirdness/uselessness/wastefulness of trying to alter its perfect structure remains.. On a slightly related note..goat milk for example has higher protein but it doesn't contain the milk fat globule membrane..and it isn't necessary to homogenize it..it comes naturally homogenized. Some have lesser intolerances with goats milk than with cows milk..so I am going to guess that it has something to do with casein. Donkeys milk..yaks milk..buffalo milk..camels milk..sheeps milk. They are all acceptable to drink in diff parts of the world. I grew up on buffalos milk which is richer and creamier. Big topic..I hope I haven't digressed too much! Gah!

by anu7df 10y ago

hijinks 10y ago

I tend to agree that the fresh fruits and veggies are pretty much the same price as competitors (really only experience is Safeway) What I do find as a plus is Whole Foods tends to get more stuff locally if they can and a store like Safeway is going more regional or to Mexico to keep its costs down. I'll pay a little more to have my fresh food being sourced locally and more time to ripen on the vine then ripen in a truck.

matwood 10y ago

> Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper than in most chains I recently discovered the above, and after paying attention there are many items that are less expensive at WF. The whole fresh fruits and vegetables are the same price or cheaper than other local chains, and are also very high quality. The only place that beats them on price is Walmart, but quality is hit and miss (normally miss). I have found beer and wine to be $1-$2 cheaper at WF than local chains. Not everything of course, but I tend to keep the same wine and beer around the house so I notice pricing. Good cheese can also be had for less money at WF. The WF brand whole bean coffee is also cheaper than anything else I have found locally. If frugality is the goal I have found that for most packaged stuff Walmart is the way to go. Then WF for fruits and veggies, and finally Harris Teeter (local chain in the south) for meats (never ending special boneless/skinless chicken breasts are always $1.99/lb).

angry-hacker 10y ago
Don't you have markets in U.S where you can buy straight from farmers? It would be more convenient and helps locals. If you care about organic and fresh stuff.
- vinay427 10y ago
  Yes, there are certainly a good number of these, but one of the main reasons I would go to a grocery stores is to buy non-local produce. For instance, avocados or various other fruits aren't grown anywhere near where I live.
- stonemetal 10y ago
  It is really hit or miss. It takes a large city like Dallas to have a permanent farmers market. Smaller towns might have a month where they have a farmer's market every weekend, but nothing the rest of the year.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    I would say that even small towns have farmers markets that last most of the growing season (like even a village of 10,000 will often have one all summer, although it of course won't be comparable to one in a large city). And CSAs (Community-supported agriculture) are becoming more popular.
    - sanderjd 10y ago
      This doesn't seem true to me at all. Where do you live? My biggish (100k) crazy-for-organics town has one that is only open on one weeknight and one weekend morning, only in the summer. My medium (25k) midwestern home town only has big box groceries.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        I was unclear, I meant weekly markets that last the summer. I was partly responding to the have a month in the post I replied to. It's typical that they run more of the season than that.

carlmcqueen 10y ago

I don't really see a business analysis as band wagon whole foods hate, if you're referring to the article. However, the lawsuit they faced with 'vegetable infused water' without the vegetables was a pretty serious black mark against them that people didn't forget.

gregd 10y ago

"I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip." Then you must not have many choices available in your area to get the same items for less. Natural Grocers, Aldi, Trader Joe's, Market of Choice, New Seasons, Sprouts...the list goes on and on.

acdha 10y ago
I have tons of choices available and share the GP's question about the trendiness of piling on the hate train. I've done that comparison in a fair number of cities and “same items for less” has never been true on a consistent basis: it's either a small percentage either way or comparing different things. I love Trader Joe's but I shop there for the store brand items and a few specials. At every location I've been to (CA, CT, MA, DC, FL) the vegetable selection is far more limited than Whole Foods and generally lower quality. That doesn't mean that one is better or worse than the other, only that they're different businesses with different models. TJ's loves to stock things they can get a deal on, which is great but limited. This is true of the local supermarkets: yes, they stock a lot of organic options now. No, they're not better quality and they're usually more expensive because it's a premium niche category for them but a core product for WF. If you look at the loss leader specials, yes, they're often cheaper but some things in your cart are also more expensive. I think this goes back to people relying on anecdotes instead of data and the psychological weight of a few high-end items skewing perception of the entire store. People see some super high-end olive oil, say “oh my god, can you believe how much that costs?!”, and forget the more affordable option on the same shelf or that the store they're comparing it to didn't even stock the equivalent grade of product.
- gajjanag 10y ago
  > I have tons of choices available and share the GP's question about the trendiness of piling on the hate train. I've done that comparison in a fair number of cities and “same items for less” has never been true on a consistent basis: it's either a small percentage either way or comparing different things. This depends on a lot on the "consumption basket". The small percentage comment is definitely not true for some categories of products. Concretely, consider cheese. Genuine imported Parmigiano-Reggiano can be had outside Whole Foods for < $14 a pound, with extremes like Costco selling it for $12 I believe. Whole Foods charges $20 for this, a ~ 50% higher price. Similar remarks apply to other high grade cheeses. More generally, although Whole Foods keeps the pricing of their store brand products competitive (e.g the 365 value stuff), they certainly do mark up many high quality items significantly.

aczerepinski 10y ago

The comments here are almost exclusively about the price and quality of products, with "store x has basically the same thing for less money" being a common theme. Whole Foods nails the shopping experience for those who care about intangibles. It's always clean. It's always well stocked. They have very educated cashiers who can move lines quickly and make autonomous decisions when an item doesn't ring up. They can give $100 cash back so I don't need to hit the ATM ever. They don't have those horrendously buggy self checkouts. If you can trade money for time and convenience, WF is a great experience. After getting used to it, other stores are frustrating to me.

mikeash 10y ago
I've been in my local WF a few times and see what you mean, but never felt it to be worth the premium. I do most of my shopping at Trader Joe's, which has many of the same advantages but is also cheap. I can see it if the choices are WF or a crappy Giant or Safeway....
tedmiston 10y ago
Maybe this varies by geography but the Kroger stores around me all satisfy these constraints. The WF near me is actually a much slower checkout experience because they have less cashiers open (often ~2) and no Uscans, so I either wait in line longer or avoid it. At WF, I've waited in line for 10+ minutes before getting to the register but that's never happened at Kroger.
Overtonwindow 10y ago
I disagree. Cashiers are no more intelligent at whole foods as they are at a Safeway. They barely talk or acknowledge your presence. Major stores are clean and neat. That's SOP. $100 back in cash? Why is that important? I give them points for letting me use Apple Pay but beyond that Whole Foods "experiance" is no different than a Kroger, Wegmans, or Sprouts. Maybe you're living in a really run down area where Whole Foods is the only well managed place.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Honestly, I like the atmosphere in Market Basket better. It's crowded, busy, and full of cheap staple goods -- exactly the way a supermarket should be.

vidoc 10y ago

I routinely shop there as well, generally speaking, their fruits and vegetables despite being a tad more expensive are of higher quality than most places. I've also observed that WF stores usually have sufficient mancount to deliver decent checkout performances. The staff is always friendly and helpful and the cashiers in particular always impress me with their handling of the mandatory sterile discussion. When they ask me whether I would like a second bag, I sometimes feel them genuinely worried about what could happen otherwise.

ronaldj 10y ago
Checkout performance is key. It's one of the main reasons I shop there. Even at peak times, the wait time seems to be an order of magnitude less than checking out at Safeway. Also, the person checking you out at Whole Foods is usually happier and nicer than the person checking you out at Safeway.

e40 10y ago

Organic vegetables and fruits are cheaper than in most chains That is clearly not the case in the Bay Area. Whole Foods is the most expensive place you can shop around here.

sidlls 10y ago
We must live in different places in the Bay Area, or else you're not factoring in quality. I have two stores within biking distance (15-20 min or less) and perhaps four in driving distance (same time in city traffic). I'm not counting convenience stores or other similar dives. With one exception (meat) on a quality basis Whole Foods averages out to be the same price as any other store I have shopped at. Meat is the exception because it averages to be about $1/lb more than other grocers.
- e40 10y ago
  Notice I was replying to comments about fruits and vegetables. For meat, Costco is cheaper and higher quality, compared to WF and all of them.
- zaroth 10y ago
  My own experience is that WF meat is not better than Safeway and easily 50% more expensive. My local Safeway sold USDA Prime filet for $18.99/lb, the Choice at WF was always at least $26 and sometimes $32/lb. My wife has come home with salmon from WF marked at $32/lb and I nearly had a heart attack. $12/lb for the same at Safeway, sometimes $8.99. It seems to me WF sets prices assuming you just aren't looking and don't know better. It's a hell of a markup for shopping ambiance.
  - WillPostForFood 10y ago
    Are you comparing like for like? I'm a very frugal shopper who will go to both stores in a trip to save $1, and I've observed that the high-end organic products are very similar in price. Organic milk at Safeway is about the same price as organic milk at WF, but there are many cheaper non-organic options at Safeway. Grass fed hamburger or steak is about the same price, but there are also cheaper non-organic, non-grass fed options at Safeway.

kiliantics 10y ago

My gripe with wholefoods goes beyond the price. I take issue with their business ethics and general operating philosophy. It's a pretty typical appeal to the "conscious" consumer that will only look skin deep when making a decision about products. It's a kind of slacktivism, wholefoods marketing team tells me that they care about the environment and the small farmer so surely buying from them is the most ethical consumption. I believe it is misleading though. The company's only goal is profit and this is very evident when you hear their libertarian CEO speak. He's a sociopath preying on the good will of middle class liberals. Combine that with the exploitation of cheap prison labour as a perfect example of the company's principles in execution and it just leaves a bad taste with those seasonal organic vegetables. Edit: If you really want to get tasty, fresh, sustainable, local, and organic food then join or start a local food co-operative. This gets everyone a fair price for high quality products along with paying people fairly for their produce and work. It's also completely democratic so all practices are decided upon by the members and not just by some megalomanic CEO or greedy shareholders.

_delirium 10y ago
I'm not a huge fan of the CEO in general, but I get the impression he really does care about the organic-foods part. There are more liberals who fall in that category, yes, but there are definitely libertarians into it as well. What's probably more unusual is that he's a wealthy big business type of libertarian who also likes organic foods, while the libertarians into organic food are more often the off-the-grid type.
jmcdiesel 10y ago
A company's goal should be profit. Why is profit a bad word so often? They aren't abusing customers or employees to get that profit... both of those groups regularly praise the company... so I don't see the problem in seeking as much profit as you can. Thats how free market works, right? And if they go to far in the name of profit, they will see it reflected and profits drop... on a site created around startups, its interesting that the "profit" as a bad word is still a thing here... You can want to make as much profit as possible while ALSO doing the right thing ethically.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

Our local Kroger has that along with tons of cheap, organic stuff. They also focus on quality of produce, service, etc. They can't match Whole Foods in how well the store is run since they're cut-throat in cost cutting. They do just good enough that all kinds of customers tolerate them. Gabriel's Worse is Better applied to grocery stores haha. I'm totally unsurprised by the article seeing Walmart, Costco, and Kroger are one-stop shops for regular and organic items at much cheaper prices. I expected this to happen to Whole Foods. They should double down on the better shopping experience (less crowds) and offering obscure items big retails are too greedy to carry.

Alex3917 10y ago

If there is a green market in your area, you can get a much wider variety of produce and it will be significantly less expensive. If Whole Foods is the only thing in your area it's not a bad option, but it's definitely possible to do much better.

wpietri 10y ago

> I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. I think there has long been a resentment of them. 20 years ago I did some technical work for a natural foods broker. They knew the wholesale price for all sorts of organic and alternative foodstuffs. They were just astounded by Whole Foods markups as compared with other vendors. If I recall rightly, the Whole Foods marketing also rubbed them the wrong way; it had strong class-based elements, taking the natural foods industry from a "power to the people" feel to a "this is fancy and high class" feel. In a business sense, they've clearly done well by it. They're at the intersection of rising inequality and rising concern over what we eat. But that limits them too; trying for "mass-market luxury" is a precarious position. You end up resented by the true luxury fans as cheapening something they care about. And other companies, ones not constrained by luxury, can go after the mass-market end of things. Plus they still have the essential contradiction between commercial exploitation and the natural do-goodery of the organic foods types. So the hate seems pretty plausible to me. Their old shtick is working less well; the grocery market is really different 20 years on. They'll need to find a new shtick, but I don't think that will be an easy transition.

base698 10y ago
The genius of Whole Foods to me was that in the same store you'll see a $35,000 a year new college grad shopping along side a $300,000 a year professional. It hit the upmarket class stuff and kept the hippy stuff too so the educated group would aspire to go there. This as opposed to Fresh Market, which was purely upmarket/upper class.
galdosdi 10y ago
Very well said. This is why I see TJ's eating Whole Foods's lunch. TJ's started from the opposite end. Like what I imagine possibly happening to iOS at the hands of Android, this is a true example of "disruptive" in its earlier definition -- start down market and move up, not the other way around. > Disruptive innovation, a term of art coined by Clayton Christensen, describes a process by which a product or service takes root initially in simple applications at the bottom of a market and then relentlessly moves up market, eventually displacing established competitors.

dominotw 10y ago

>I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. exibit A: Whole Foods' $6 Asparagus Water Is Just Water With Three Stalks of Asparagus in It http://www.eater.com/2015/8/3/9090797/whole-foods-asparagus-water-wtf http://www.eater.com/2015/8/3/9090797/whole-foods-asparagus-...

jessaustin 10y ago
Surely, any chain of anything can have one-time, harmless, quality control problems at one location, without symbolizing some sort of corporate identity?
- dominotw 10y ago
  http://ny.eater.com/2015/6/24/8838453/whole-foods-overcharge-investigation http://ny.eater.com/2015/6/24/8838453/whole-foods-overcharge... City Sting Reveals Whole Foods Has Been Overcharging New Yorkers Since 2010
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Sure that's a more convincing example. Next time lead with that one. I've never shopped at Whole Foods BTW.

seattle_spring 10y ago

> I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip I think it's probably because they tried to capitalize on selling "non-GMO" products, which is a huge marketing scam that some consumers are finally wising up to. Don't believe me? Go find me some GMO oranges. Or GMO cilantro. Or GMO chocolate. Or GMO lettuce. Or GMO anything other than corn and soybeans. Want to know why you can't find them? Because they don't exist. That doesn't stop companies like Whole Foods from slapping a "non-GMO" label on them and charging 2x the price of Safeway.

fullshark 10y ago

I like their food/produce and generally consider it a good value. Their wine selection/prices are surprisingly weak though. The only thing I hate them for is selling/promoting snake oil. My guess is a lot of the hate towards Whole Foods is their clientele being perceived as snobby/out of touch/"richer than I am".

rotskoff 10y ago

It might be the case that this hate is not even grounded in a realistic financial assessment of the company. The reaction of Wall St. to this earnings report, which the WaPo presents as a sign of collapse, was, in fact, bullish. The stock closed up a few percent ($30.35) the next day from the previous day's close ($29.30). If you look more closely at their strategy, it seems like they're trying to enter a slower growth phase, where they simply focus on the markets that provide them steady profits. They are closing a few stores, but those stores were older, poorly performing locations. I can offer a more personal perspective: I currently live in the Bay Area but spend a fair amount of time in Manhattan, as well. When shopping in California, I essentially never go to Whole Foods because the produce prices are ridiculous in comparison to the high quality local grocers near my home. In Manhattan, however, I nearly exclusively shop at Whole Foods because the produce is reliably good, the 365 products are affordable, and the prices are fairly competitive (if not better than) many other options. Of course, there are less expensive stores that I could go to in New York, but they generally don't offer the convenience or quality.

Veratyr 10y ago

> non homogenized (yes it makes a difference. In taste and texture and arguably healthier) Could you elaborate on this? What's the argument for non-homogenized milk being healthier? Per Wikipedia: "The fat in milk normally separates from the water and collects at the top. Homogenization breaks the fat into smaller sizes so it no longer separates, allowing the sale of non-separating milk at any fat specification." I just don't understand how smaller fat particles are less healthy than large ones at the top (apart from perhaps the liquid milk being fattier, in which case you can simply buy milk with less fat).

jelliclesfarm 10y ago
If I may..even though the quote isn't attributed to me... It's really a long and involved answer but I am going to try my best to keep it simple. Raw milk that has fat(lipids), protein, amino acids and sugars(glucose) amongst other good stuff. Milk is essentially a suspension..that is fat suspended in the fluid. When you homogenize milk, it is passed through a fine nozzle so that it's no longer a suspension. It is all one homogenous uniform mixture..with everything mixed and melded together. What happens is that the lipids in the original raw state is encased within a thin membrane called milk fat globule membrane..that's why the cream is 'suspended' and separate from the liquid milk itself. This membrane/cell wall of the lipid is now shattered during the homogenization process. That membrane is there for a reason. Mammalian milk is the complete food for the offsprings..from an evolutionary pov, it has to contain everything to sustain the infant. Lactation is a highly expensive action for the mammalian mother..why would she give up so much resources and energy to design lipids and protein and other stuff so perfectly packaged in the medium that is suspension based raw milk delivery system? The fat globule membrane could be there for the right order in which to digest or process the nutrients for the most optimal and complete food source for the baby. Modern machinations have altered the structure of milk protein/fats/sugars that full fat(aka regular) milk is considered unhealthy. Milk can cause indigestion..milk fats causes heart disease..the sugars are considered carbs. But it is really the perfect and complete food which has the exact delivery system that costs the mother so much to provide her offspring. Of course, the mother in this case is the cow from whose offsprings we steal the milk but the evolutionary argument for the structure of raw milk and the weirdness/uselessness/wastefulness of trying to alter its perfect structure remains.. On a slightly related note..goat milk for example has higher protein but it doesn't contain the milk fat globule membrane..and it isn't necessary to homogenize it..it comes naturally homogenized. Some have lesser intolerances with goats milk than with cows milk..so I am going to guess that it has something to do with casein. Donkeys milk..yaks milk..buffalo milk..camels milk..sheeps milk. They are all acceptable to drink in diff parts of the world. I grew up on buffalos milk which is richer and creamier. Big topic..I hope I haven't digressed too much! Gah!