3 ms·

Societies living under rule of any state are inherently dystopias.

by zzzcpan 10y ago

ivraatiems 10y ago
Definition of dystopia: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. How is your assertion true under that definition, even if we strip out the "imagined" part? Can you provide an example of a society which would qualify as not being a dystopia under your version of the term's meaning?
- zzzcpan 10y ago
  I don't like that definition, it's basically a dystopian definition of dystopia. If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. Think of where these dystopias come from, what is the purpose of creating a dystopian rule. In these terms it's easy to make parallels with any modern state.
  - arippberger 10y ago
    "Imagined" in this definition almost makes it feel like Newspeak. I've always felt dystopias could be very real.
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      Bear in mind that the term comes from "utopia," which was always an imaginary construct. The original idea was that dystopia would be an equally impossible/imaginary negative society counterpart to a utpoia's impossible/imaginary positive society. It would probably be most correct to say that societies can be "dystopian" but never "dystopias," because of that part of the definition, but I think we're at a point where that's splitting hairs somewhat.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    That's literally the dictionary definition of the term. If you don't like it, you should make up a new word, or explain convincingly why we should change it, and what to, which you aren't really doing. > If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Other people not believing something doesn't make so. That any society might look like a dystopia to someone doesn't make said society a dystopia, because "making parallels" isn't the same as proving something to be true. There are many parallels between humans and chimpanzees, but they're not the same species. And you haven't answered my major question: If all modern states are dystopias under your definition, what exactly does a non-dystopian society look like, and how do we know? How is the term useful if you just define it as covering everything?
    - zzzcpan 10y ago
      > My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Your definition is exactly about beliefs. It can never be precisely interpreted, each interpretation depends entirely on what you consider good or bad and why.
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        "My" definition is the generally accepted definition, and that kind of relativism is convenient for you in that makes it impossible to have a discussion about it, but ignores the context in which the term has been used since its inception. You're not responding to my questions or points, so I think this conversation's not productive anymore.
        zzzcpan 10y ago
        > but ignores the context in which the term has been used since its inception Interestingly, I wanted to say the same to you. The term has been used to describe states that have the exact same goals as any modern state, but not a "bad" place.
  - beefield 10y ago
    Sounds pretty much like a dystopia described 1984, if you start changing meanings of words because you do not like the originals.
halestock 10y ago
What?
aaron-lebo 10y ago
You sound like a libertarian. If societies under the rule of the state are dystopias, what are societies without the state? Do we prefer Mad Max and bandits?
- thomasfoster96 10y ago
  Libertarians still support the existence of the state (even if it’s a hollow shell of what most nation-states are now). Seeing the very existence of the state as being dystopian is anarchist.
- shrimp_emoji 10y ago
  You've heard it here first: libertarianism means supporting Mad Max bandit kleptocracy.
lobster_johnson 10y ago
A society cannot be a dystopia. A dystopia is a fictional example, a literary scenario, used by an author to illustrate how political and social structures might work in a hypothetical reality. Linguistically, it makes as much sense as saying a state is a satire, or that a person is a comedy.
- deadbunny 10y ago
  To be fair I'm still pretty convinced Charlie Brooker and Chris Morris are responsible for Trump's entire campaign.

Societies living under rule of any state are inherently dystopias.

by zzzcpan 10y ago

Societies living under rule of any state are inherently dystopias.

Definition of dystopia: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. How is your assertion true under that definition, even if we strip out the "imagined" part? Can you provide an example of a society which would qualify as not being a dystopia under your version of the term's meaning?

zzzcpan 10y ago
I don't like that definition, it's basically a dystopian definition of dystopia. If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. Think of where these dystopias come from, what is the purpose of creating a dystopian rule. In these terms it's easy to make parallels with any modern state.
- arippberger 10y ago
  "Imagined" in this definition almost makes it feel like Newspeak. I've always felt dystopias could be very real.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    Bear in mind that the term comes from "utopia," which was always an imaginary construct. The original idea was that dystopia would be an equally impossible/imaginary negative society counterpart to a utpoia's impossible/imaginary positive society. It would probably be most correct to say that societies can be "dystopian" but never "dystopias," because of that part of the definition, but I think we're at a point where that's splitting hairs somewhat.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  That's literally the dictionary definition of the term. If you don't like it, you should make up a new word, or explain convincingly why we should change it, and what to, which you aren't really doing. > If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Other people not believing something doesn't make so. That any society might look like a dystopia to someone doesn't make said society a dystopia, because "making parallels" isn't the same as proving something to be true. There are many parallels between humans and chimpanzees, but they're not the same species. And you haven't answered my major question: If all modern states are dystopias under your definition, what exactly does a non-dystopian society look like, and how do we know? How is the term useful if you just define it as covering everything?
  - zzzcpan 10y ago
    > My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Your definition is exactly about beliefs. It can never be precisely interpreted, each interpretation depends entirely on what you consider good or bad and why.
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      "My" definition is the generally accepted definition, and that kind of relativism is convenient for you in that makes it impossible to have a discussion about it, but ignores the context in which the term has been used since its inception. You're not responding to my questions or points, so I think this conversation's not productive anymore.
      - zzzcpan 10y ago
        > but ignores the context in which the term has been used since its inception Interestingly, I wanted to say the same to you. The term has been used to describe states that have the exact same goals as any modern state, but not a "bad" place.
- beefield 10y ago
  Sounds pretty much like a dystopia described 1984, if you start changing meanings of words because you do not like the originals.

halestock 10y ago

What?

aaron-lebo 10y ago

You sound like a libertarian. If societies under the rule of the state are dystopias, what are societies without the state? Do we prefer Mad Max and bandits?

thomasfoster96 10y ago
Libertarians still support the existence of the state (even if it’s a hollow shell of what most nation-states are now). Seeing the very existence of the state as being dystopian is anarchist.
shrimp_emoji 10y ago
You've heard it here first: libertarianism means supporting Mad Max bandit kleptocracy.

lobster_johnson 10y ago

A society cannot be a dystopia. A dystopia is a fictional example, a literary scenario, used by an author to illustrate how political and social structures might work in a hypothetical reality. Linguistically, it makes as much sense as saying a state is a satire, or that a person is a comedy.

deadbunny 10y ago
To be fair I'm still pretty convinced Charlie Brooker and Chris Morris are responsible for Trump's entire campaign.