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An interesting and thorough categorization, but I take issue with the defeatism inherent in the concept. When the author says "I would like to suggest that all

An interesting and thorough categorization, but I take issue with the defeatism inherent in the concept. When the author says "I would like to suggest that all modern societies are both Kafkaesque and Phildickian with either a Huxleyan or Orwellian overarching framework; modern, western, capitalist societies tend to be basically Huxleyan (HKP) and pre-modern, eastern, communist countries tend to be basically Orwellian (OKP)," that is a premature conclusion, and one that should be challenged. Yes, many societies have aspects of various kinds of dystopias. Does that mean all those societies are dystopias, or that all technology which may enable certain kinds of dystopia is inherently bad? Further, are all forms of life which involve being an active participant in one's society or culture so necessarily just a way of explaining away one's participation in a dystopia? When we start categorizing the United States, for instance, as Phildickian-Huxlian-etc., we're doing so without answering the bigger question: Is the modern US a dystopia? Why or why not? If not, is it becoming more like one, and if that is so, what can we do to stop it? I think the author is using the term "dystopia" to describe "flawed modern societies," which is not really what it means. I'd be curious to know what the author thinks an ideal human life ought to look like.

zzzcpan 10y ago
Societies living under rule of any state are inherently dystopias.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  Definition of dystopia: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. How is your assertion true under that definition, even if we strip out the "imagined" part? Can you provide an example of a society which would qualify as not being a dystopia under your version of the term's meaning?
  - zzzcpan 10y ago
    I don't like that definition, it's basically a dystopian definition of dystopia. If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. Think of where these dystopias come from, what is the purpose of creating a dystopian rule. In these terms it's easy to make parallels with any modern state.
    - arippberger 10y ago
      "Imagined" in this definition almost makes it feel like Newspeak. I've always felt dystopias could be very real.
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        Bear in mind that the term comes from "utopia," which was always an imaginary construct. The original idea was that dystopia would be an equally impossible/imaginary negative society counterpart to a utpoia's impossible/imaginary positive society. It would probably be most correct to say that societies can be "dystopian" but never "dystopias," because of that part of the definition, but I think we're at a point where that's splitting hairs somewhat.
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      That's literally the dictionary definition of the term. If you don't like it, you should make up a new word, or explain convincingly why we should change it, and what to, which you aren't really doing. > If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Other people not believing something doesn't make so. That any society might look like a dystopia to someone doesn't make said society a dystopia, because "making parallels" isn't the same as proving something to be true. There are many parallels between humans and chimpanzees, but they're not the same species. And you haven't answered my major question: If all modern states are dystopias under your definition, what exactly does a non-dystopian society look like, and how do we know? How is the term useful if you just define it as covering everything?
- halestock 10y ago
  What?
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  You sound like a libertarian. If societies under the rule of the state are dystopias, what are societies without the state? Do we prefer Mad Max and bandits?
  - thomasfoster96 10y ago
    Libertarians still support the existence of the state (even if it’s a hollow shell of what most nation-states are now). Seeing the very existence of the state as being dystopian is anarchist.
  - shrimp_emoji 10y ago
    You've heard it here first: libertarianism means supporting Mad Max bandit kleptocracy.
- lobster_johnson 10y ago
  A society cannot be a dystopia. A dystopia is a fictional example, a literary scenario, used by an author to illustrate how political and social structures might work in a hypothetical reality. Linguistically, it makes as much sense as saying a state is a satire, or that a person is a comedy.
  - deadbunny 10y ago
    To be fair I'm still pretty convinced Charlie Brooker and Chris Morris are responsible for Trump's entire campaign.
calibraxis 10y ago
When people lived in slave or feudal societies, would it have been defeatist to identify them as dystopian? Weren't there people (what we call "activists") doing something about it, regardless of whether those in power wanted everyone to know? BTW, today's real-world dystopias require violence (or the threat of it).
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>When we start categorizing the United States, for instance, as Phildickian-Huxlian-etc., we're doing so without answering the bigger question: Is the modern US a dystopia? Why or why not? Well, compared to where Americans would once have told you the country ought to end up, yes, it's a dystopia, particularly for the young. I've heard teachers say that Push: a novel accurately describes their students' lives. For many of us, well, there's this joke. In the '80s you were told that under Russian Communism, everyone would have to pack themselves into overcrowded apartments and nobody could own their own car. Now, in the 2010s, under American capitalism, we young people all have to pack ourselves into overcrowded apartments and nobody can own their own car. Living standards have declined. Personal freedoms and privacy have retreated. Politics has grown more authoritarian. Science is being rejected rather than advanced. Education has stagnated. It's a low-grade dystopia.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think that makes the US a dystopia. I think it makes the US a society in a regressive slide towards dystopianism. Admittedly, this is a nitpick of your point, but it's an important distinction because a dystopia is supposed to be the absolute worst anything can be. The US is just nowhere near that. I also think that when we analyze the direction of a society, we should be looking on a larger timescale than between 1980s and 2010s. If you zoom out a little, to, say, the 1910s to 2010s, it's hard to make the argument that people are worse off on average. There's a lot of doom-and-gloom forecasting that suggests that not only is our society regressing, it is regressing so quickly and to such a low point that this cannot be countered. I don't think that's true. I think there is still time for positive change and that our society still provides us avenues for achieving it. It isn't easy, and it isn't getting any easier, but it is possible. While that possibility exists, a state cannot be a true dystopia. I'm also curious as to how old you think I am. I have a feeling I'm much younger than you may imagine. I also think I should point out that while I haven't read Push, it looks like it has a relatively uplifting ending that is a counterexample to what you're claiming.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

zzzcpan 10y ago

Societies living under rule of any state are inherently dystopias.

ivraatiems 10y ago
Definition of dystopia: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. How is your assertion true under that definition, even if we strip out the "imagined" part? Can you provide an example of a society which would qualify as not being a dystopia under your version of the term's meaning?
- zzzcpan 10y ago
  I don't like that definition, it's basically a dystopian definition of dystopia. If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. Think of where these dystopias come from, what is the purpose of creating a dystopian rule. In these terms it's easy to make parallels with any modern state.
  - arippberger 10y ago
    "Imagined" in this definition almost makes it feel like Newspeak. I've always felt dystopias could be very real.
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      Bear in mind that the term comes from "utopia," which was always an imaginary construct. The original idea was that dystopia would be an equally impossible/imaginary negative society counterpart to a utpoia's impossible/imaginary positive society. It would probably be most correct to say that societies can be "dystopian" but never "dystopias," because of that part of the definition, but I think we're at a point where that's splitting hairs somewhat.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    That's literally the dictionary definition of the term. If you don't like it, you should make up a new word, or explain convincingly why we should change it, and what to, which you aren't really doing. > If you believe that you live in a good place and that others are bad, totalitarian states, you wouldn't consider yours to be dystopian, somewhat ignoring that people living in other states might think the exact same thing about your state. My believing something is something doesn't make it so. Other people not believing something doesn't make so. That any society might look like a dystopia to someone doesn't make said society a dystopia, because "making parallels" isn't the same as proving something to be true. There are many parallels between humans and chimpanzees, but they're not the same species. And you haven't answered my major question: If all modern states are dystopias under your definition, what exactly does a non-dystopian society look like, and how do we know? How is the term useful if you just define it as covering everything?
halestock 10y ago
What?
aaron-lebo 10y ago
You sound like a libertarian. If societies under the rule of the state are dystopias, what are societies without the state? Do we prefer Mad Max and bandits?
- thomasfoster96 10y ago
  Libertarians still support the existence of the state (even if it’s a hollow shell of what most nation-states are now). Seeing the very existence of the state as being dystopian is anarchist.
- shrimp_emoji 10y ago
  You've heard it here first: libertarianism means supporting Mad Max bandit kleptocracy.
lobster_johnson 10y ago
A society cannot be a dystopia. A dystopia is a fictional example, a literary scenario, used by an author to illustrate how political and social structures might work in a hypothetical reality. Linguistically, it makes as much sense as saying a state is a satire, or that a person is a comedy.
- deadbunny 10y ago
  To be fair I'm still pretty convinced Charlie Brooker and Chris Morris are responsible for Trump's entire campaign.

calibraxis 10y ago

When people lived in slave or feudal societies, would it have been defeatist to identify them as dystopian? Weren't there people (what we call "activists") doing something about it, regardless of whether those in power wanted everyone to know? BTW, today's real-world dystopias require violence (or the threat of it).

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>When we start categorizing the United States, for instance, as Phildickian-Huxlian-etc., we're doing so without answering the bigger question: Is the modern US a dystopia? Why or why not? Well, compared to where Americans would once have told you the country ought to end up, yes, it's a dystopia, particularly for the young. I've heard teachers say that Push: a novel accurately describes their students' lives. For many of us, well, there's this joke. In the '80s you were told that under Russian Communism, everyone would have to pack themselves into overcrowded apartments and nobody could own their own car. Now, in the 2010s, under American capitalism, we young people all have to pack ourselves into overcrowded apartments and nobody can own their own car. Living standards have declined. Personal freedoms and privacy have retreated. Politics has grown more authoritarian. Science is being rejected rather than advanced. Education has stagnated. It's a low-grade dystopia.

ivraatiems 10y ago
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think that makes the US a dystopia. I think it makes the US a society in a regressive slide towards dystopianism. Admittedly, this is a nitpick of your point, but it's an important distinction because a dystopia is supposed to be the absolute worst anything can be. The US is just nowhere near that. I also think that when we analyze the direction of a society, we should be looking on a larger timescale than between 1980s and 2010s. If you zoom out a little, to, say, the 1910s to 2010s, it's hard to make the argument that people are worse off on average. There's a lot of doom-and-gloom forecasting that suggests that not only is our society regressing, it is regressing so quickly and to such a low point that this cannot be countered. I don't think that's true. I think there is still time for positive change and that our society still provides us avenues for achieving it. It isn't easy, and it isn't getting any easier, but it is possible. While that possibility exists, a state cannot be a true dystopia. I'm also curious as to how old you think I am. I have a feeling I'm much younger than you may imagine. I also think I should point out that while I haven't read Push, it looks like it has a relatively uplifting ending that is a counterexample to what you're claiming.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

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