5 ms·

I don't think that is what the article is saying. We can look at it as essentially there is a set of desires which have a genetic/environmental factor (hormones

by neaden 10y ago

I don't think that is what the article is saying. We can look at it as essentially there is a set of desires which have a genetic/environmental factor (hormones you are exposed to in utero for example). Then there is a society around you that shapes how you act on those desires. So taking a hypothetical person and transplanting them to different cultures will change how they express/act on their desires. If you take someone who identifies as a homosexual today and brings them to Victorian England they wouldn't identify as homosexual but might, as the son in this example wonder if they had the soul of a woman. In the same fashion if we took someone who identified as straight today and raised them into ancient Greece they would probably engage in behavior we would think of as homosexual because it was the standard part of the culture at the time.

sp332 10y ago
Yeah, that sounds totally plausible. But Lady Gaga has a song called "Born this Way", while at the same time saying that she's queer and denying that she was born any particular "way". Edit: I'll add in a better source here than a pop star. American Association of Pediatrics: "The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual." https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/113/6/1827.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/11...
- lightedman 10y ago
  We call that 'marketing to your audience.'
  - sp332 10y ago
    Maybe, but there is a specific audience she's selling to. One that claims their sexuality is fixed. (I just needed an example and I didn't want to pick on a private person.)
    - givinguflac 10y ago
      I'm all for discussing the intricacies of this topic. However, by the way you position yourself it sounds like you think millions of people are choosing to be gay just to mess with you or something.
      - sp332 10y ago
        On the contrary, I've always found it difficult to believe and I'm glad the establishment is coming around to seeing it my way :)
        foldr 10y ago
        You've always found what difficult to believe?
- legodt 10y ago
  Lady Gaga also had a bunch of white gay men in blackface for a faux slave auction. She is hardly a paragon of queer values or the voice of any movement. She represents a pop commodity that is sold to as large of a market as possible, nothing more and nothing less.
- lkrubner 10y ago
  So clearly, if you can take the 152 words that Neaden wrote, make them rhyme and set them to a catchy beat, then you might have a hit, with the added advantage of being more scientifically precise than Lady Gaga.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  What is it you think the song is about? (one way to summarize it would be "your labels aren't important"; in which case, it's not going to work well to analyze it in terms of consistency with the labels you want to apply)
- Coding_Cat 10y ago
  I think the real issue here is that yes, people are probably born into some kind of sexuality, but the standard binary distinction of gay and straight (or even bi) doesn't really work that well. People can be more or less attracted to one gender than the other. For some this shows up as 100-0 or 50-50 others it's 70-30. To put it crass, someone could be a really slutty straight person but also a very picky gay person. The whole "born this way" issue I think stems from semantics of "you can be anything you want". I think a lot less people fall into the 100-0 category then they let on but because of societal pressures they don't chose to express or explore a different side (historically this also seems to be reflected). Saying someone can be what they want in that context means that they should feel free to express/explore those curiosities not that they are not innate to them as a person. And some people just say what they feel is the best thing, not giving it much rational thought, too.
- foldr 10y ago
  > "The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual." The fact that sexuality isn't a choice doesn't entail that you're born with a particular sexuality. It just means that your sexuality is due to factors outside your control, which could just as well have to do with environment or upbringing as genetics. (To avoid any misunderstanding, I personally have no strong opinions on what actually determines peoples' sexuality, and don't think that it's particularly important.)

by neaden 10y ago

sp332 10y ago

Yeah, that sounds totally plausible. But Lady Gaga has a song called "Born this Way", while at the same time saying that she's queer and denying that she was born any particular "way". Edit: I'll add in a better source here than a pop star. American Association of Pediatrics: "The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual." https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/113/6/1827.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/11...

lightedman 10y ago
We call that 'marketing to your audience.'
- sp332 10y ago
  Maybe, but there is a specific audience she's selling to. One that claims their sexuality is fixed. (I just needed an example and I didn't want to pick on a private person.)
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    I'm all for discussing the intricacies of this topic. However, by the way you position yourself it sounds like you think millions of people are choosing to be gay just to mess with you or something.
    - sp332 10y ago
      On the contrary, I've always found it difficult to believe and I'm glad the establishment is coming around to seeing it my way :)
      - foldr 10y ago
        You've always found what difficult to believe?
legodt 10y ago
Lady Gaga also had a bunch of white gay men in blackface for a faux slave auction. She is hardly a paragon of queer values or the voice of any movement. She represents a pop commodity that is sold to as large of a market as possible, nothing more and nothing less.
lkrubner 10y ago
So clearly, if you can take the 152 words that Neaden wrote, make them rhyme and set them to a catchy beat, then you might have a hit, with the added advantage of being more scientifically precise than Lady Gaga.
maxerickson 10y ago
What is it you think the song is about? (one way to summarize it would be "your labels aren't important"; in which case, it's not going to work well to analyze it in terms of consistency with the labels you want to apply)
Coding_Cat 10y ago
I think the real issue here is that yes, people are probably born into some kind of sexuality, but the standard binary distinction of gay and straight (or even bi) doesn't really work that well. People can be more or less attracted to one gender than the other. For some this shows up as 100-0 or 50-50 others it's 70-30. To put it crass, someone could be a really slutty straight person but also a very picky gay person. The whole "born this way" issue I think stems from semantics of "you can be anything you want". I think a lot less people fall into the 100-0 category then they let on but because of societal pressures they don't chose to express or explore a different side (historically this also seems to be reflected). Saying someone can be what they want in that context means that they should feel free to express/explore those curiosities not that they are not innate to them as a person. And some people just say what they feel is the best thing, not giving it much rational thought, too.
foldr 10y ago
> "The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual." The fact that sexuality isn't a choice doesn't entail that you're born with a particular sexuality. It just means that your sexuality is due to factors outside your control, which could just as well have to do with environment or upbringing as genetics. (To avoid any misunderstanding, I personally have no strong opinions on what actually determines peoples' sexuality, and don't think that it's particularly important.)