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It's worth noting that the first production cars are to be delivered to the Tesla employees who reserved one. This should have a positive impact on quality, bot

It's worth noting that the first production cars are to be delivered to the Tesla employees who reserved one. This should have a positive impact on quality, both in terms of motivation ("the car I'm working on is mine"), and by having a shorter debug-fix-test cycle. (I have no idea how many employee reservations there are.)

Waterluvian 10y ago
You should see the Tesla employee parking lot. Most of the people working on these cars will never afford one.
- spectrum1234 10y ago
  ?? Tesla Model 3 full cost of ownership, esp including tax incentives in CA (where factory is) literally is the cheapest car on the market.
  - Waterluvian 10y ago
    I guess I'm jaded from my week spent there. It was a whole different world to me. One lady talked to me about how this is her second job today and that she can barely make it on time to today's safety training because of the bus schedules. The parking lot was an ocean of beat up cars. The perception I got was that nobody on the production floor would ever own these cars.
    - snarf 10y ago
      I imagine there is a huge difference in the employee pool between their Fremont factory location and their Palo Alto office location. Of course, Tesla is not exactly known to pay even their engineers very well: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-stress-relatively-low-pay/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-str...
    - J-dawg 10y ago
      That just seems really sad. I've read that Tesla doesn't pay exceptionally well, expects people to work really long hours, and doesn't offer an employee discount because Elon doesn't believe in it. Despite all this I've always imagined it to be a great place to work because of the world-changing potential of the work. But the idea of all these people toiling away on an amazing product they can't even hope to own just seems incredibly depressing. I guess it's no different to all the people making iPhones in China, it just hits closer to home.
      - trome 10y ago
        Elon is a capitalist, through and through. Treating workers well isn't even on his list of priorities, similar to Amazon.
        crusso 10y ago
        Musk created a company that gives around 15,000 workers a job. The company he created is not just a capitalist endeavor, but an attempt to start an environmental movement aimed at making electric cars viable in the world market. At multiple points during the company's early days, Musk put everything he had on the line; assuming huge levels of risk. Meanwhile, Tesla is not making a profit and one wrong move could destroy it - ending the jobs of thousands and an environmental movement in one fell swoop. Giving luxurious benefits to Tesla employees just isn't possible at this point. Your criticism that Musk is just a capitalist who doesn't care about his workers and treat them well seems completely unfair.
        trome 10y ago
        Boo hoo, not treating your workers like shit isn't some impossible, gargantuan task. Working your engineers & labor 60+ hours a week makes for great sound bites, but significantly below average productivity. Combined with an employer that won't even take basic suggestions on improving workflow from their floor staff, Tesla obviously has a certain level of arrogance about how to build a car. Fuck the employees who actually do it day in and day out, they don't know shit according to Tesla.
      - 10y ago
  - hueving 10y ago
    Tax deductions are worthless if you're already low income.
    - ec109685 10y ago
      It isn't a deduction but a credit.
      - breser 10y ago
        But it's not a refundable credit. Which means you get whichever is the lowest of your tax liability or $7,500. Please note saying it's not refundable is term of art that does not mean what you might take it to mean. So let's walk through some examples. Let's say your total tax liability for a year is $10,000. You paid in $11,000 via Payroll and other taxes. Without the credit you'd be due a refund of $1,000. If you are eligible for a $7,500 credit because you bought a Tesla you'd be due a $8,500 refund. Let's say your tax liability for the year is $5,000. You've paid nothing in taxes for the year (probably because you knew you were buying the car and didn't need to). You bought a Tesla which makes you eligible for a $7,500 tax credit. You do not get anything refund from the IRS, but the $7,500 tax credit offsets your entire tax liability. So just because it's a credit doesn't mean the credit is effective for low income people. You have to have enough income to have a high enough tax liability to even get the full $7,500.
        Quinner 10y ago
        Very few people with a tax liability of less than $7,500 would be buying a new Model 3.
        hueving 10y ago
        This post is in response to someone saying "this is literally the cheapest car on the market", which is exactly what someone with that small of a liability would be looking for.
  - ganley 10y ago
    I'd like to see that math. Highly skeptical.
- AtheistOfFail 10y ago
  $35k for model 3 is pretty cheap... I wouldn't expect them to drive a $150k car though.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Sorry, but $35k isn't "pretty cheap" for the majority of the US.
    - ericd 10y ago
      What about for Tesla employees?
      - coryfklein 10y ago
        That's a pretty broad group ranging from janitor to assembly worker to engineer. I'd hazard a guess that the median Tesla employee could not afford a $35k vehicle.
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    $35k is basically a Lexus or lower-end Cadillac. You're easily into luxury range for a daily-driver. My car was $20k brand new with several options tacked on. Most people I know have used cars... getting a new car of any kind is a big deal IMO for most Americans.
    - crazy2be 10y ago
      The average new vehicle purchased in the United States is $33,560[0]. The Tesla Model 3 is $35,000, PLUS $7,500 in government tax credit[1]. This puts the effective cost at $27,500. The Honda Civic, widely considered a cheap car, is $20,415 MSRP[2]. Once you factor in gas and maintenance savings, around $1,200 per year[3], the Tesla is cheaper after just over 6 years. Since most cars are kept for 20 years, that is a good deal. Given that, I would say that calling it a "cheap" car is pretty accurate for most Americans. Obviously it is not in the range of used cars or the ultracheaps ($10-15K), but it's really amazingly cheap for an electric if they can make it happen. [1] Note this is likely to be halved or a quartered for new orders as Telsa reaches the 200,000 vehicle mark [2] https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/civic-sedan-pricing/ https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/civic-sedan-pricing... [3] Rough estimate based on $150/mo in gas -> $50/mo in electricity
- namlem 10y ago
  The first Model 3s still qualify for tax incentives. $35k with a nice rebate on top is perfectly affordable on a middle class salary.
  - coryfklein 10y ago
    Who are these people buying brand new cars? I feel like we live on different planets. I'm a software engineer making six figures and I can't imagine spending roughly $30-35k on a car when I can buy a decent used car for $7k, and spend less than $1k per year on maintenance. Sure I can afford a $35k car, but if I choose to put that in my 401(k) instead it could mean retiring 3-5 YEARS earlier.
tajen 10y ago
> "The car I'm working on is mine" and short debug-fix-test cycle Just saying, at the announced pace, after 2 weeks they've provided cars to every Tesla employee, their partners and children. That's a short test cycle indeed ;)
- taneq 10y ago
  You don't think they might be expecting to ramp production up during that time? >.>

Waterluvian 10y ago

You should see the Tesla employee parking lot. Most of the people working on these cars will never afford one.

spectrum1234 10y ago
?? Tesla Model 3 full cost of ownership, esp including tax incentives in CA (where factory is) literally is the cheapest car on the market.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  I guess I'm jaded from my week spent there. It was a whole different world to me. One lady talked to me about how this is her second job today and that she can barely make it on time to today's safety training because of the bus schedules. The parking lot was an ocean of beat up cars. The perception I got was that nobody on the production floor would ever own these cars.
  - snarf 10y ago
    I imagine there is a huge difference in the employee pool between their Fremont factory location and their Palo Alto office location. Of course, Tesla is not exactly known to pay even their engineers very well: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-stress-relatively-low-pay/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-str...
  - J-dawg 10y ago
    That just seems really sad. I've read that Tesla doesn't pay exceptionally well, expects people to work really long hours, and doesn't offer an employee discount because Elon doesn't believe in it. Despite all this I've always imagined it to be a great place to work because of the world-changing potential of the work. But the idea of all these people toiling away on an amazing product they can't even hope to own just seems incredibly depressing. I guess it's no different to all the people making iPhones in China, it just hits closer to home.
    - trome 10y ago
      Elon is a capitalist, through and through. Treating workers well isn't even on his list of priorities, similar to Amazon.
      - crusso 10y ago
        Musk created a company that gives around 15,000 workers a job. The company he created is not just a capitalist endeavor, but an attempt to start an environmental movement aimed at making electric cars viable in the world market. At multiple points during the company's early days, Musk put everything he had on the line; assuming huge levels of risk. Meanwhile, Tesla is not making a profit and one wrong move could destroy it - ending the jobs of thousands and an environmental movement in one fell swoop. Giving luxurious benefits to Tesla employees just isn't possible at this point. Your criticism that Musk is just a capitalist who doesn't care about his workers and treat them well seems completely unfair.
        trome 10y ago
        Boo hoo, not treating your workers like shit isn't some impossible, gargantuan task. Working your engineers & labor 60+ hours a week makes for great sound bites, but significantly below average productivity. Combined with an employer that won't even take basic suggestions on improving workflow from their floor staff, Tesla obviously has a certain level of arrogance about how to build a car. Fuck the employees who actually do it day in and day out, they don't know shit according to Tesla.
    - 10y ago
- hueving 10y ago
  Tax deductions are worthless if you're already low income.
  - ec109685 10y ago
    It isn't a deduction but a credit.
    - breser 10y ago
      But it's not a refundable credit. Which means you get whichever is the lowest of your tax liability or $7,500. Please note saying it's not refundable is term of art that does not mean what you might take it to mean. So let's walk through some examples. Let's say your total tax liability for a year is $10,000. You paid in $11,000 via Payroll and other taxes. Without the credit you'd be due a refund of $1,000. If you are eligible for a $7,500 credit because you bought a Tesla you'd be due a $8,500 refund. Let's say your tax liability for the year is $5,000. You've paid nothing in taxes for the year (probably because you knew you were buying the car and didn't need to). You bought a Tesla which makes you eligible for a $7,500 tax credit. You do not get anything refund from the IRS, but the $7,500 tax credit offsets your entire tax liability. So just because it's a credit doesn't mean the credit is effective for low income people. You have to have enough income to have a high enough tax liability to even get the full $7,500.
      - Quinner 10y ago
        Very few people with a tax liability of less than $7,500 would be buying a new Model 3.
        hueving 10y ago
        This post is in response to someone saying "this is literally the cheapest car on the market", which is exactly what someone with that small of a liability would be looking for.
- ganley 10y ago
  I'd like to see that math. Highly skeptical.
AtheistOfFail 10y ago
$35k for model 3 is pretty cheap... I wouldn't expect them to drive a $150k car though.
- hueving 10y ago
  Sorry, but $35k isn't "pretty cheap" for the majority of the US.
  - ericd 10y ago
    What about for Tesla employees?
    - coryfklein 10y ago
      That's a pretty broad group ranging from janitor to assembly worker to engineer. I'd hazard a guess that the median Tesla employee could not afford a $35k vehicle.
- dragontamer 10y ago
  $35k is basically a Lexus or lower-end Cadillac. You're easily into luxury range for a daily-driver. My car was $20k brand new with several options tacked on. Most people I know have used cars... getting a new car of any kind is a big deal IMO for most Americans.
  - crazy2be 10y ago
    The average new vehicle purchased in the United States is $33,560[0]. The Tesla Model 3 is $35,000, PLUS $7,500 in government tax credit[1]. This puts the effective cost at $27,500. The Honda Civic, widely considered a cheap car, is $20,415 MSRP[2]. Once you factor in gas and maintenance savings, around $1,200 per year[3], the Tesla is cheaper after just over 6 years. Since most cars are kept for 20 years, that is a good deal. Given that, I would say that calling it a "cheap" car is pretty accurate for most Americans. Obviously it is not in the range of used cars or the ultracheaps ($10-15K), but it's really amazingly cheap for an electric if they can make it happen. [1] Note this is likely to be halved or a quartered for new orders as Telsa reaches the 200,000 vehicle mark [2] https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/civic-sedan-pricing/ https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/civic-sedan-pricing... [3] Rough estimate based on $150/mo in gas -> $50/mo in electricity
namlem 10y ago
The first Model 3s still qualify for tax incentives. $35k with a nice rebate on top is perfectly affordable on a middle class salary.
- coryfklein 10y ago
  Who are these people buying brand new cars? I feel like we live on different planets. I'm a software engineer making six figures and I can't imagine spending roughly $30-35k on a car when I can buy a decent used car for $7k, and spend less than $1k per year on maintenance. Sure I can afford a $35k car, but if I choose to put that in my 401(k) instead it could mean retiring 3-5 YEARS earlier.

tajen 10y ago

> "The car I'm working on is mine" and short debug-fix-test cycle Just saying, at the announced pace, after 2 weeks they've provided cars to every Tesla employee, their partners and children. That's a short test cycle indeed ;)

taneq 10y ago
You don't think they might be expecting to ramp production up during that time? >.>