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Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help
- r00fus 10y agoGreat news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?
- earthtolazlo 10y agoWhat about the coal-fired plants cheerfully mentioned in the article strikes you as good for the environment?
- r00fus 10y agoA coal fired plant combined with an electric train and transmission losses is more efficient both energy and emissions-wise than the equivalent ICE engines to transport the same people.
- ced 10y agoI'd be curious to see the back-of-the-napkin math behind this.
- clock_tower 10y agoThe Tesla fans can probably give you the details -- although they're still a little wedded to cars. A coal plant can use filtering much more elaborate than anything a private vehicle can use, so reportedly a Prius (35 MPG) has about the same emissions as a Tesla fueled from an all-coal grid.
- mercutio2 10y agoI don't disagree with your general point (although I'll quibble a bit about non-carbon emissions; even heavily scrubbed coal emits a lot of heavy metals that aren't present in gasoline). But what Prius only gets 35 MPG? Did you mean 53MPG? My old Prius with batteries that are getting long in the tooth still gets 40-45 MPG.
- Gibbon1 10y agoHard to say exactly, but it's not crazy. But I doubt the difference is that large. Diesel engines for locomotives are likely 40% efficient before accounting for the motor-generator section. A modern a coal fired power plant might be 40-45% efficient. So probably the same based on raw thermal numbers. I suspect economically the electrification is a win. Also over the future it's possible to run the electrified trains on electric power from greener sources, like solar and wind. Where diesel would require a big upgrade.
- toast0 10y agoAn electric train may require less energy because it doesn't need to move the engine along the track.
- Symbiote 10y agoCorrect. They can also return energy when braking, although it usually helps to have a decent density of trains running at the same time.
- Zach_the_Lizard 10y agoIt also doesn't need to move the fuel it needs, either. Plus if cleaner fuel becomes available, it can switch as soon as it's hooked to the grid.
- Symbiote 10y ago"it will be mechanised and rely on locally-produced hydropower to run." according to an older article. Maybe that didn't happen? http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-global-influence-is-growing-2013-3?r=US&IR=T&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-global-influence-is-gr...
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoWhat's the bar for ecological spending? They should use more expensive energy solutions than say America? Why? I'd criticize each American coal plant in turn, before turning to blame 3rd-world development.
- mikeash 10y agoI don't know exactly where the bar is, but I would propose that it lies somewhere above the point where going outside makes your eyes and nose burn because the air is so awful. The US is not some magical pollution-free paradise, but at least the air is comfortably breathable here 365 days a year in most places. It's amusing when the authorities put out an air quality alert here in the DC area. It's important for sensitive populations, but it's almost impossible for a normal person to even notice the difference. A code red air quality day in DC would be a delightfully clear and clean day in Beijing. They should use cleaner energy solutions because they're killing a shitload of people right now. Dirty coal is only cheaper if you ignore the costs imposed by the pollution.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoAnd that's the situation in Ethiopia? I'm not sure it is. So again, they're using a cost-sensitive solution with possibly little ecological impact, in comparison to the rest of the world anyway.
- mikeash 10y agoThe plants aren't built yet, so you wouldn't expect to see their impact yet. If you want to see what it might look like, look at another place where similar things are already built.
- grardb 10y agoI read another comment on HN about this recently. Their explanation was that it's due (at least in part) to the high savings rate of the Chinese compared to the USA (and other countries, I guess)[1]. The idea is that when people are stashing their money into bank accounts, the banks have a lot more money to work with. For example, Americans will use their money to buy cars. The Chinese would save their money, and the banks can use that money to fund transit projects. I don't know how true this is, but it makes sense in my brain. I'd love to do more reading about this as well. If it's true, that makes it mildly frustrating to me, since I save a lot of my income and refuse to own a car; I don't get any extra public transit out of that, though! [1] http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/25/china-savings-rate-versus-the-world-in-a-chart.html http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/25/china-savings-rate-versus-the...
- rahimnathwani 10y agoIf you are interested in this, I highly recommend 'The Great Rebalancing' by Michael Pettit. He explains the causes and implications of China's high savings rate, and the relationship with other countries' savings rates. His explanation of the causality is contrary to most of what you will have read in the popular press.
- selimthegrim 10y agoSurely you mean Michael Pettis?
- rahimnathwani 10y agoYes, sorry! Too late to edit.
- skybrian 10y agoI don't believe it's a lack of money. There's no shortage of investors looking to make money in the U.S, and we have very low interest rates. If people aren't investing, it's because they don't think they can make a profit. So I believe the real question is, why is it thought to be a money-loser? And somehow, Chinese investors seem not to care that much about profits? It's unclear how much of these is foolishness versus vision versus corruption. In any case, lots of great infrastructure gets built by companies that go bankrupt. From the point of view of someone who didn't finance it, maybe it doesn't matter whether it's a smart move or not.
- bogomipz 10y ago>"I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot." Can you explain this comment? China is not building rail networks in Africa for altruistic purposes, their primary interest in Africa's natural resources. How does that relate to the US in any way? >"Also: environment is happier." Have you been to a Chinese city recently? Beijing or Shanghai? They are choked with cars despite having good rail infrastructure. In fact China is the largest producer of cars the planet right now. There are times when your lungs hurt at the end of the day. People wearing air pollution masks is normal. Also you are comparing a centrally planned economy full of SOEs(state owned enterprises) controlled by the Communist Party with a free market economy, they are nothing alike. >"What's their secret" There is no secret, the economy is centrally controlled by a single political party that can not be voted out of power. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_veh...
- jimmywanger 10y ago> I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. China has very little regard for civil liberties and human rights, whereas the US government has to at least pay lip service to it.
- skdd8 10y agoNormally I would agree with you but, that hasn't been the case for the past 3 weeks or so.
- zhemao 10y agoMaybe that's Trump's plan to MAGA. Get rid of all those pesky civil liberties and democratic procedures getting in the way of progress. /s
- gozur88 10y agoExcept there's no actual indication he has any such intentions. I wish people on the left would recover from their hysterical election freakout.
- matt4077 10y agoAhh, the thread is de-railing... I'm busy stopping friends from promoting conspiracy theories and Hitler comparisons left and far-left. Yet the fear voiced in the comment you're replying to doesn't seem to be completely unwarranted. One of the key principles of "democratic procedures" is that the courts have final say over all executive activities. It is obvious that this principle is centre to some of the recent tweets saying (paraphrasing from memory) "what has our country come to when a court can <stop me from doing something>". Note how the country hasn't changed a bit and there's a long history of the courts stopping various measures enacted in the name of security. To use an example from the other end of the spectrum: imagine "@prezObama: What is our country coming to when a judge can halt a National Security handgun ban and anyone, even with bad intentions, can walk around with a deadly weapon?". Note that this isn't about the actual policy. It also isn't about complaining about a judge's decision. It's about the assumption in the statement that courts shouldn't have jurisdiction over such matters.
- sremani 10y agoBecause China is an export-oriented country. Now we can go into who provided credit for whom to build this railway track, I would assume (I can be wrong) it all involved a dizzying array of Chinese creditors and companies, from the steel, construction to the trains themselves. They are not building out of charity but the benefit their own companies. Lot of LatAm countries like Ecuador have taken Chinese credit when Commodity markets are hot, are now regretting their mistake. [edit]: From Wikipedia -- The new line was built between 2011 and 2016 by the China Railway Group and the China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation. Financing for the new line was provided by the Exim Bank of China, the China Development Bank, and the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China.[5] A total of US$4 billion was invested into the railway.[6]
- vkou 10y ago> Lot of LatAm countries like Ecuador have taken Chinese credit when Commodity markets are hot, are now regretting their mistake. Ten years ago, the same was said about those same countries, except it was WMF loans, not Chinese loans.
- lazaroclapp 10y agoSure. Two things were true then, are true now and will be true ten years later (when India is making the loans?): First, the loans are not charity. Second, Argentina will end up defaulting on them.
- fspeech 10y agoGDP per capita Ethiopia: $505 (2013) GDP per capita Argentina: $14715 (2013) The impact of a railroad (and therefore ROI whether measured financially or just socially) is bound to be higher for Ethiopia, esp since it is the first and only to connect the landlocked country to a major sea port.
- lazaroclapp 10y agoI mean, you are not wrong. But I don't see how that's a reply to my post. Also, to make it clear, I am (roughly) from the region, and the joke about Argentinian defaults was meant to be gently poking fun at their history with it, since LatAm and loans came up.
- segmondy 10y agoMy strong opinion on this. Their secret is trade, China manufactures, they build, they create, they need more raw material than ever and Africa has that. That's why they are in Africa, they are making these deals so they can get their raw materials. That's one. Second, China was "poor" not too long, it's fresh in their mind, they know how a poor place can just transform, and they see that possibility in Africa. Plenty of those that didn't make it in China figure they can in Africa by leveraging their connection to China. So it's not just rich Chinese in Africa, there are just average Chinese folks who move to Africa and do trade import/export and build small businesses too. They see the possibility and potential. Americans don't see that in Africa, most people alive in America today didn't witness when the majority of America was "materialistic poor" like Africa is today. Which was about 100+yrs ago.
- noonespecial 10y agoSo Africa is China's California. Whoa. I hope this time around, the Africans aren't the Indians.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y agoHow much do you know about the history of Africa and relations with Europe over the past few hundred years?
- akiselev 10y agoOr the history of California, for that matter. By the time Native American tribes in California made contact with the invaders, the United States was decades away from becoming an independent country. By the time America and Mexico went to war, 90% of them had already died due to diseases spread by Russian fur traders and Spanish missionaries.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- geodel 10y agoNothing secret. China as a country generates lots of savings and the money that is parked with government(banks) needs to be deployed to generate returns. So it will get invested all over the world.
- matt4077 10y ago– They can finance stuff like this on credit unchecked by ny public opposition to growing national debt – Having started later than western countries, their public debt (41% GDP) is much lower – High GDP growth rates further lower the effective burden of their debt – They can act largely unencumbered by the historic debt of colonialism, while western countries face opposition both internally as well as locally in the project countries – They have less qualms of working with some regimes with less-than-stellar records on human rights – Lower regard for human rights means lower risk of political tensions between China and the host countries, which could otherwise endanger investments. Western countries, conversely, want to avoid a situation where they have to compromise on morals to protect their investments (c.f. China) – China has a lot more experience with large infrastructure projects than any other country. – China brings their own workers to these projects, which are paid far below any construction workers you could find anywhere in industrial countries – The politics of China allow for "Grand Plans" and their quick approval. Democratic processes would almost certainly stop any such project in a western country because it's impossible to write a reliable business plan for them. These are bets made on a whim and to a certain degree driven by politics and emotions. – Western democratic countries generally regard such projects to be the provenance of the market.
- tomcam 10y ago- They give zero fucks about environmental impact
- averagewall 10y agoEnvironment? It's a desert, you can hardly break it worse than it already is. Also, it's Africa. Concern for the environment is a luxury for rich countries where the people already have a good quality of life and can put more effort into secondary effects like pollution/etc. Ultimately, humans are more important than the environment so where you can give a big boost to the former at a moderate cost to the latter, it can be a worthwhile trade-off.
- elcapitan 10y ago
- anigbrowl 10y agoNot being a democracy makes this sort of thing vastly easier.
- omegaworks 10y agoWanting to grow their geopolitical influence by winning hearts and minds. Wouldn't be surprised if China wasn't making this move for more influence in / around the Bab al-Mandab Strait - the narrow opening of the Red Sea into the Arabian Sea. It's formed by Yemen to the East and Djibouti to the west. This sea route is the fastest way from Europe to Asia. Tons of oil from the Middle East flows through here.
- panic 10y agoExactly. It's a difference of will, not of resources. America could easily do all of this if our government and people cared.
- ChrisjayHenn 10y agoI think one of their secrets is being a net capital exporter, something the US hasn't been for some time now.
- dangjc 10y agoChina has a current account surplus (they export more goods than they import). To keep their exchange rate down, they export the capital back out, funding things like rail in Africa. It's not the free market. Much of the surplus savings/capital in China is inside state controlled banks and conglomerates. Average Chinese citizens have a hard time taking capital outside the country, which is a driving force behind their overpriced real estate and the popularity of bitcoin there.
- seagullz 10y agoThere are apparently business of more interesting and likely more profitable kind; See some of the articles by Nick Turse:: https://theintercept.com/staff/nick-turse/ https://theintercept.com/staff/nick-turse/ And it's old story: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pilger_John/Have_Nice_War_DV.html http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pilger_John/Have_Nice_War_...
- kevindong 10y ago> For Djibouti, the debt is especially daunting, amounting to 60 percent of its gross domestic product. This seems absolutely insane to me.
- SilasX 10y agoThere are about 30 countries with a net government debt greater than 60% of their GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_de... There's another table but it doesn't let you sort by that figure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#As_a_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#As_a_perce...
- guelo 10y agoLet's say you make a $100k per year and take out a $60k mortgage, that seems very reasonable. If the railway is going to make their economy more productive and efficient then it seems like a really good idea.
- maxerickson 10y agoIt depends a little bit on how much of their economy they can afford to spend on transit projects though. Home buyers can usually devote a significant portion of their annual income towards housing.
- dghughes 10y agoPeople buy cars that are worth more than their yearly salary and it's a common thing. Spend 100% of your yearly effort on a thing that will be worth 25% less in twelve months. Plus it costs probably about $5,000 per year to own and operate a vehicle.
- mikeash 10y agoIs that really a common thing? Cars depreciate rapidly and buying one that costs more than your early salary sounds like a complete disaster to me. Maybe the people I know are just unusually financially responsible?
- popobobo 10y agoScrew u. USA has been and always will be leading the world. Just wait till we build a wall along the african border. Guess who will pay for that? African! That is the power I am talking about.
- justicezyx 10y agoWell, meme is fine for a while. If I saw this in every tangibly relevant post in HN, I will be mad...
- owebmaster 10y agoAs if it was in Trump's watch that this situation developed...
- sctb 10y agoWe've already asked you to post civilly and substantively, and we ban accounts that won't, so please stop this. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602887 and marked it off-topic.
- bcks 10y agoI was surprised that the NYT article did not have a map of the route. Luckily, WikiPedia has it covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addis_Ababa–Djibouti_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addis_Ababa–Djibouti_Railway
- anonyguy1969 10y agoTwo countries can't be representative of the continent. This title should read Ethiopians and Djiboutians
- rjeli 10y ago"Empire of Dust" (1:15) follows a Chinese developer working in Africa. Interesting glimpse into local difficulties with culture and industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M
- ice109 10y agoi wonder how good this guy's chinese is. edit: this guy speaks 4 very different languages - english, swahili, french, and chinese. that's quite impressive.
- thisrod 10y agoTL;DR: The railway from Ethiopia to Djibouti failed because no one could afford to maintain it. A few years later, the Djibouti government took out a loan for the value of 9 months production from the entire country, and paid some Chinese firms to build them a brand new one.
- kalleboo 10y agoSkimming some of the sources in Wikipedia, it looks like the maintenance and rebuilding of the previous railway stalled not so much due to cost reasons but rather political reasons in the cooperation between Djibouti and Ethiopia. I guess it's easier politically to rally around a new shiny railroad than play "who pays who" for maintenance of a 100-year-old one.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- guard-of-terra 10y ago"New stations have been built outside city centres" Is it only me who has problems with this attitude? As if we didn't have enough frustration from airports located an hour away.
- ryanqian 10y agoThey are helping Africans in real, step by step, glad to see the world is geting better with the help of Engineers. The People in Africans they deserve the world industry's help , again, in real.
- anonyguy1969 10y agoTwo countries can't be representative of the continent. This title should read Ethiopians and Djiboutians
- debt 10y agoSeems like Africa would be a good geopolitical advantage for China. An area of the world ignored by mostly every other country.
- luckystartup 10y agoDoes this open up any investment or business opportunities? I feel like the shipping and railroad industry is enormous and impenetrable, but there must be some smaller opportunities in here. Even if it's something sort of intangible, like "increasing transparency and fighting corruption". Because you know some percentage of this money went into the wrong pockets. If you were just a programmer from a western country, how would you even begin to get started in developing markets? Not just this railway project, but Africa and Asia in general. I'm reading things like this [1]: > China, India and the rest of the developing world will eclipse the west in a dramatic shift in the balance of economic power over the next 50 years. So I want to be where the growth is happening. How do I do that? Do I need millions of dollars before I can achieve anything? Should I learn Mandarin, Hindi, or Swahili? In the past, I would have had to visit some of these countries and talk to some local entrepreneurs. Now I can just do my own research, meet people online, and have Skype calls. There's really no need to travel in order to find opportunities. EDIT: I just watched the "Empire of Dust" documentary... That's really eye-opening. I hate to think about how much all of those workers are being paid. Even the Chinese managers. I guess business is business, and they just pay as little as possible. It also seems like it is very difficult to get anything done. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/datablog/2012/nov/09/developing-economies-overtake-west-2050-oecd-forecasts https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/datablog/2012... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M
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- fegul 10y agoThis opens up a lot of investment/business opportunities. Ethiopia is land-locked and given its not-so-great relationship with Eritrea, uses Djibouti as its primary port. The time-savings of the railway will bring down port-to-Addis shipment times to 12 hours which is awesome considering it can take 3 days now (although the customs process will need to be improved to really speed it up) It will also reduce the costs necessary to repair the roadways that trucks take to get to Djibouti and back. The incoming lane on these roads is often rutted like crazy due to the weight of the goods and truck drivers are not always the most reliable people. Ethiopia is also home to one of the fastest growing economies in the world and it is extremely import-dependent. The lower the costs for transit, the lower the costs for the consumer. RE: wanting to be where the growth is, you really need to be here to see it (I spend most of my time in Ethiopia) You don't have to know the local language and you don't need millions of dollars but you need to have an appetite for risk and be an extremely patient person. Nothing generally works out the way you think it will here so be open to other outcomes and be resilient through it all. PM if you have any questions.
- fegul 10y agoThe title makes me shudder. 1. Africa != Ethiopia and Djibouti. It's a massive continent 2. "Joyous Africans" conjures up some pretty bad stereotypes 3. The reason they're "joyous" is only because someone else helped them? Yikes.
- brdltbrncle 10y agoIt's not a totally rosy picture across the continent. In Kenya, Chinese infrastructure projects are hugely disruptive to local communities and wildlife and are poorly managed and implemented, seemingly providing short-term improvement but questionable over the long term. http://africanbusinessmagazine.com/region/east-africa/rising-cost-kenyas-new-railway/ http://africanbusinessmagazine.com/region/east-africa/rising...
- privateprofile 10y agoAgreed. The only reason that you see these deals being made is because the Chinese government is interested in Africa's natural resources [1], Chinese companies are competitive in construction (not really rocket science, plus slave labour certainly provides a financial advantage [2] [3]) and government officials stand to personally make money, as nothing gets done in Africa if you don't "properly compensate" the right government officials [4] [5] (european companies know this too, but bribery is sligthly more constrained by their governments). The end product is usually low quality, with roads cracking open as soon as rain pours, but the goal was not to provide infrastructure in the first place, so no one is remotely concerned about any benefits nor about the impact on local communities, public safety, wildlife or the environment. Guess what happens to anyone that tries to protest on behalf of these issues. [6] These deals are rarely rosy for the general population, who will still lack water, sanitation, food, jobs and education. Even the few that managed to survive outside of city centers will see their basic livelyhood (cattle, farming) disrupted by these "developments". PS: I've worked in Angola, Kenya and Nigeria. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-new-imperialists http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jul/29/china-export-convict-labour https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/201... [3] https://jamhuri-news.com/how-china-contractors-drove-kenyan-firms-out-of-mega-projects/ https://jamhuri-news.com/how-china-contractors-drove-kenyan-... [4] https://qz.com/513090/in-south-africa-corruption-is-a-public-private-partnership-that-protesters-want-broken-up/ https://qz.com/513090/in-south-africa-corruption-is-a-public... [5] http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000175560/eacc-arrests-senior-china-roads-managers-for-bribery http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000175560/eacc-arres... [6] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-angola-protest-idUSKCN0X70C1 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-angola-protest-idUSKCN0X70...
- throw2016 10y agoThere is a pattern to evolution of societies. A lot of 'third world' countries including social structures are a lot like our societies were 100-200 years ago. Anyone doing even basic research will not fail to see the similarities. There is basic survival, greed, feudal systems, corruption and the primacy of religion and traditional social structures. Prosperity breaks a lot of these and the evolution of the west came first from economic colonialism and the resulting wealth then spurred on the growth of technology and newer economic, social and political structures. Without the benefit of colonialism a lot of emerging economies are 'stuck' and they have to deal with extremely powerful and organized entrenched power structures and play by their rules designed to maintain their primacy at all costs. Isn't this what 'the great game' is? Its got little to do with human rights, humanity, environment or social consciousness. Its purely driven by power, self interest and greed. Its played out in backroom deals, corruption, financial systems, collusion, dirty tricks, geo politics and wars like we see in the middle east and Russia. This is the road China is learning to navigate in Africa. A road already taken by the west 400 years ago. Exciting times ahead.