4 ms·

Do Afghanistan and Iraq really count given they were invaded and their governments replaced with puppet regimes? How could the governments of Iraq and Afghanist

by zumu 10y ago

Do Afghanistan and Iraq really count given they were invaded and their governments replaced with puppet regimes? How could the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan ever afford to say 'no' to the US?

bpodgursky 10y ago
The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. The government of Iraq did, in fact, say "no" to the presence of US troops, which is why they all left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from... The much smaller recent bolstering of US troops in Iraq was also by invitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_Iraq_(2014%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_I... Whether or not it would be a great idea for Afghanistan to tell all UN troops to book it is a different question. But at the end of the day, they have not asked that.
- jacobush 10y ago
  I know they are, but come on... the US civil administrator ("Vice King") Paul Bremer sacked the Iraqi army and banned all Baath party members from jobs. Most publicly employed people of rank were members, that was just a necessity to keep the job. So, you destroy the security apparatus, leave almost a million weapons trained without an income for their families and sack most competent civil administrators. This was basically telling the Shia majority to get even with the Sunnis. 15 years later, the resentment is cemented and Isil is using it to their advantage. Yes, technically a democracy but large parts of the populace cannot vote because they're under Sharia rule. Thanks, Paul.
  - jacobush 10y ago
    By the way, that's a war crime. An occupier has the obligation to keep order. When the military was sacked, looting became widespread. The US forces had no orders to keep the peace, but just looked on. It's a miracle Iraq works at all today.
- Panoramix 10y ago
  > The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. Not by any means. The US vetoed all candidates they didn't like. That's as un-democratic as it gets.

by zumu 10y ago

Do Afghanistan and Iraq really count given they were invaded and their governments replaced with puppet regimes? How could the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan ever afford to say 'no' to the US?

bpodgursky 10y ago

The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. The government of Iraq did, in fact, say "no" to the presence of US troops, which is why they all left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from... The much smaller recent bolstering of US troops in Iraq was also by invitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_Iraq_(2014%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_I... Whether or not it would be a great idea for Afghanistan to tell all UN troops to book it is a different question. But at the end of the day, they have not asked that.

jacobush 10y ago
I know they are, but come on... the US civil administrator ("Vice King") Paul Bremer sacked the Iraqi army and banned all Baath party members from jobs. Most publicly employed people of rank were members, that was just a necessity to keep the job. So, you destroy the security apparatus, leave almost a million weapons trained without an income for their families and sack most competent civil administrators. This was basically telling the Shia majority to get even with the Sunnis. 15 years later, the resentment is cemented and Isil is using it to their advantage. Yes, technically a democracy but large parts of the populace cannot vote because they're under Sharia rule. Thanks, Paul.
- jacobush 10y ago
  By the way, that's a war crime. An occupier has the obligation to keep order. When the military was sacked, looting became widespread. The US forces had no orders to keep the peace, but just looked on. It's a miracle Iraq works at all today.
Panoramix 10y ago
> The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. Not by any means. The US vetoed all candidates they didn't like. That's as un-democratic as it gets.