8 ms·

Is that really a "just" or is it the right thing to do? Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. We've discussed our proposal a lot

by om2 10y ago

Is that really a "just" or is it the right thing to do? Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. We've discussed our proposal a lot with key players in this space (including other browsers, GPU vendors, relevant ISVs) and we're pretty sure a cross-API abstraction is the way to go. Some even want to build a form of cross-API abstraction at the native C/C++ level.

cma 10y ago
Apple knows they aren't going to push something closed like Metal itself onto the web, so they want to make the web API easy to use with Metal as a backend instead. The end goal is to maintain Metal as a proprietary bit of tech for native apps, in order to make it more burdensome for people to port native apps away from the Apple platform and as a result give Apple more exclusive apps and more artificial barriers to entry for competitors. Why should the web standards people be bending backwards to support that goal?
- om2 10y ago
  Turns out that you don't have to bend over backwards if you're already supporting Vulkan and DirectX 12. But still, the ability to run your awesome 3D web apps on Apple platforms seems to be a good reason to support a Metal back end.
  - cma 10y ago
    I think 3D web standards are going to take off in spite of Apple. Apple might even end up supporting Vulkan as a result. That would be a really great outcome for consumers (including Apple users) and developers and only not so great for Apple and its lock-in strategy. Seems like a net positive.
  - phaed 10y ago
    Why would any serious gamer want to burden themseves with Apple's overpriced and underperforming platforms. Let them die, this would be a nice step in that direction.
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      They have some of the best smartphones in the world ...
kuschku 10y ago
> Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. No, the right thing for the broader ecosystem is working only on Vulkan, and forcing Apple to adopt Vulkan, so that one API is usable natively on every OS, device (even Nintendo will support Vulkan on its consoles!) and browser. If Apple wants to go their own way, sure, but they’ll be cut off from the rest of the world, and quickly realize where they went wrong.
- om2 10y ago
  Sounds like you're focused on what is best for Vulkan, not what is best for the web.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    So far as I can see, the argument he's making is that there's already an actively emerging standard for a 3D API outside of the web, so it would make sense if the web also jumped on the same bandwagon, and we could have a single API everywhere. That makes sense to me. What is special about the web that should exclude it from the single API narrative?
    - acqq 10y ago
      The standard in question is still "one of the standards" (and a "me too" one, "the one to end all the previous standards" (1) as far as I see it) not the standard. Remember claims of Flash being the necessary thing on the mobile web, and efficient too? It turned out it was never true. Note there's still no web version of "pure" Vulkan. If it gets to be modified to be less "ridiculously low level" in its web variant, it is anyway going to come closer to the goal Apple proposes for the web. Again, to quote from the Apples proposal: "We don’t expect this to become the actual API that ends up in the standard, and maybe not even the one that the Community Group decides to start with, but we think there is a lot of value in working code. Other browser engines have made their own similar prototypes. It will be exciting to collaborate with the community and come up with a great new technology for graphics." --------------- 1) https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
Benjamin_Dobell 10y ago
No disrespect intended. You've undoubtedly got a much better grasp of these APIs than I do! However... > Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. A standard is the right thing for the web. Whether that's an abstraction or agreement upon an existing implementation remains to be seen.
- om2 10y ago
  I agree with you that a cross-browser standard is the right thing. We worked hard to bring all the interested parties to the table to kick off this standards effort. What the output looks like remains to be seen.
- mayoff 10y ago
  Agreement upon an existing implementation is not sufficient. WebSQL was rejected because it had only one implementation (SQLite). https://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/ https://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/
- MBCook 10y ago
  You do realize you're commenting on a Web standard proposal right? This is in the document were Apple just said "here's what we're doing, deal with it", there are literally trying to work with the community on how it should look.

by om2 10y ago

cma 10y ago

Apple knows they aren't going to push something closed like Metal itself onto the web, so they want to make the web API easy to use with Metal as a backend instead. The end goal is to maintain Metal as a proprietary bit of tech for native apps, in order to make it more burdensome for people to port native apps away from the Apple platform and as a result give Apple more exclusive apps and more artificial barriers to entry for competitors. Why should the web standards people be bending backwards to support that goal?

om2 10y ago
Turns out that you don't have to bend over backwards if you're already supporting Vulkan and DirectX 12. But still, the ability to run your awesome 3D web apps on Apple platforms seems to be a good reason to support a Metal back end.
- cma 10y ago
  I think 3D web standards are going to take off in spite of Apple. Apple might even end up supporting Vulkan as a result. That would be a really great outcome for consumers (including Apple users) and developers and only not so great for Apple and its lock-in strategy. Seems like a net positive.
- phaed 10y ago
  Why would any serious gamer want to burden themseves with Apple's overpriced and underperforming platforms. Let them die, this would be a nice step in that direction.
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    They have some of the best smartphones in the world ...

kuschku 10y ago

> Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. No, the right thing for the broader ecosystem is working only on Vulkan, and forcing Apple to adopt Vulkan, so that one API is usable natively on every OS, device (even Nintendo will support Vulkan on its consoles!) and browser. If Apple wants to go their own way, sure, but they’ll be cut off from the rest of the world, and quickly realize where they went wrong.

om2 10y ago
Sounds like you're focused on what is best for Vulkan, not what is best for the web.
- int_19h 10y ago
  So far as I can see, the argument he's making is that there's already an actively emerging standard for a 3D API outside of the web, so it would make sense if the web also jumped on the same bandwagon, and we could have a single API everywhere. That makes sense to me. What is special about the web that should exclude it from the single API narrative?
  - acqq 10y ago
    The standard in question is still "one of the standards" (and a "me too" one, "the one to end all the previous standards" (1) as far as I see it) not the standard. Remember claims of Flash being the necessary thing on the mobile web, and efficient too? It turned out it was never true. Note there's still no web version of "pure" Vulkan. If it gets to be modified to be less "ridiculously low level" in its web variant, it is anyway going to come closer to the goal Apple proposes for the web. Again, to quote from the Apples proposal: "We don’t expect this to become the actual API that ends up in the standard, and maybe not even the one that the Community Group decides to start with, but we think there is a lot of value in working code. Other browser engines have made their own similar prototypes. It will be exciting to collaborate with the community and come up with a great new technology for graphics." --------------- 1) https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

Benjamin_Dobell 10y ago

No disrespect intended. You've undoubtedly got a much better grasp of these APIs than I do! However... > Working on top of all the major APIs is the right thing for the web. A standard is the right thing for the web. Whether that's an abstraction or agreement upon an existing implementation remains to be seen.

om2 10y ago
I agree with you that a cross-browser standard is the right thing. We worked hard to bring all the interested parties to the table to kick off this standards effort. What the output looks like remains to be seen.
mayoff 10y ago
Agreement upon an existing implementation is not sufficient. WebSQL was rejected because it had only one implementation (SQLite). https://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/ https://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/
MBCook 10y ago
You do realize you're commenting on a Web standard proposal right? This is in the document were Apple just said "here's what we're doing, deal with it", there are literally trying to work with the community on how it should look.