16 ms·

Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal condition

85 points by upen 10y ago

bhouston 10y ago
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/green-tea http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/green-tea
ucaetano 10y ago
Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain) to have an increase in the EGCG levels in your blood of less than 60%. http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/9/3312.long http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/9/3312.long So it seems unlikely that drinking green tea would be a viable treatment.
- mhurron 10y ago
  This is sort of the reason we invented pills.
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    Exactly! But sadly, a lot of people will read the headlines as "if I drink green tea, I'm preventing bone-marrow diseases".
    - mhurron 10y ago
      Pills packaging powdered remains of fruits sell very well, I'm sure people will be fine.
      - ucaetano 10y ago
        I wouldn't be so sure: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicity-of-homeopathic-baby-products-maker-refuses-to-recall/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicit... "After investigating reports that more than 400 babies were sickened and 10 died in connection with homeopathic teething products, the Food and Drug Administration confirmed Friday that it had indeed found elevated levels of the toxic substance, belladonna, in the products."
  - baldfat 10y ago
    KIDNEY STONES if they contain the tea leaf. Now green and white teas have catechins which may help break down kidney stones but those are break down when exposed to oxygen or sunlight.
    - samstave 10y ago
      How are these compounds prevented from sunlight induced breakdown if they occur in the leaf of a plant?
      - grzm 10y ago
        They're part of a living system that actively repairs, (re)generates the compounds. Same type of thing that prevents you from decomposing while you're still alive.
  - QUFB 10y ago
    And there are at least 60 cases of liver damage, including many fatalities, caused by Green Tea extract: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/green-tea-extract-diet-cbc-marketplace-1.3964073 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/green-tea-extract-diet-cbc-mar...
    - samstave 10y ago
      What about Tumeric extract and also intravenous vitamin-C?
- X86BSD 10y ago
  Actually your statement is false. I drank a gallon of green tea for years before switching to a gallon of white tea every day. I've never been nauseated or had pain from that. Ever. I pee every 20 minutes but it's never made me sick.
  - marricks 10y ago
    Is this serious? If so, any particular reason why you did?
    - X86BSD 10y ago
      I started this well over a decade ago, perhaps 20 years? The average person does not get NEARLY enough water per day. That was one reason, but the main reason was I knew about the anti-cancer affects of green tea as well as other healthy effects. And over the years I had nurses and medical doctors in my family tell me white tea was healthier for you that green tea. Lower caffeine, more of the same compounds and benefits green tea had. So I switched over to white tea. I am still drinking a gallon each day. Will I still get cancer? Maybe. But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        > But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it. You eat a large quantity of red meat and processed red meat. That increases your risk of cancer.
        jessaustin 10y ago
        Wat? How do you know OP's protein preferences? [EDIT:] ...wow. Just, wow. Do you use a spreadsheet to track the dietary preferences of various HN commentators, or do you have a frighteningly effective memory?
        DanBC 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947340#11948143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947340#11948143 > Ive been an atkins follower for... 20 years. I eat mostly meat.
- vanattab 10y ago
  >Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain) I might not drink a gallon but I get close. If you find you get nauseous after a couple of cups of tea (green tea especially) your probably brewing the tea too hot or for too long. Overdoing ether will let tasty bitter tasting ND nauseating componds to leach. 170F deg is about perfect for most green teas. Higher for blacks.
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    The nausea and pain is mostly due to the caffeine intake. After you're addicted, that largely goes away.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  So about 7-8 of these per day: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Green-Extract-400mg/dp/B001DNV5CA?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Green-Extract-400mg/dp/B001... For the nootropic and supplement crowd adding something like this would be trivial to swallow and manufacturers will probably start selling more potent pills if the market demands it. Its also interesting to know the the 'miracle' supplement theanine is also a green tea derivative. Every stack I've seen on nootropic forums seem to contain it, especially as it cancels out the overly stimulating effects of caffeine, but leaves the focus effects in. I wonder what more secrets green tea leaves hold and if they're more than partly responsible for Japan's impressive longevity.
- sweettea 10y ago
  I too drink 1-2 gallons of green tea per day. I drink looseleaf exclusively, with a supplier who's checked on fluoride levels for me, and find I stay hydrated and happy much better on this specific (tamaryokucha) green tea than on any other caffeine source.
  - samstave 10y ago
    I find your mention of fluoride interesting... I have always wondered (just because I am curious) how one could actually avoid intake of any fluoride given the many types of fluids humans can drink; are all beer crafters using fluoridated waters? Wine makers? Soda? Every bottled water? Juices? What drinks can be verifiably lacking fluoridation?
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      A used Milli-Q system (makes ultra-pure deionized water for scientific research) is only a few hundred bucks on ebay. Mind you, drinking water deionized to such levels will actually accelerate teeth decay, and has been shown to give organ damage and other unpleasant side effects in mice who were given it for long term consumption. Though I suppose you could go through the hassle of deionizing the water, and then adding back just the ions you trust (Ca, Na, Mg, Cl, etc.). For a more pragmatic approach, you could just limit yourself to bottled water, beer and wine imported from Europe; >99% of all European drinking water is non-fluoridated.
      - Neliquat 10y ago
        It depends, many water sources are naturally flurodated to levels equal to treated systems. At least 3 cities I know of in the USA regularly add no additional fluoride to meet standard levels.
- ayu 10y ago
  Consider co-supplementation with quercetin, which increases the bioavailability of green tea catechins. https://examine.com/supplements/green-tea-catechins/?PageSpeed=noscript#summary15-4 https://examine.com/supplements/green-tea-catechins/?PageSpe...
jaboutboul 10y ago
can we update the title to reflect what the condition actually is? Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal multiple myeloma
- jdnier 10y ago
  No, it affects protein folding in light chain amyloidosis, which often accompanies MM, but is a disease in itself. “The ECGC pulled the light chain into a different type of aggregate that wasn’t toxic and didn’t form fibril structures,” as happens to organs affected by amyloidosis.
baldfat 10y ago
I always find it funny how they test Green, Black, White or Oolong Teas separately. All teas (Not herbal infusions) are all from the same plant, Camellia sinensis. The only difference is when they are picked and for black tea they are oxidized. The only thing chemistry I have found is caffeine levels. The old belief was the highest Black and the lowest was White. This has proven to be untrue. Pill form would equal KIDNEY STONES if they contained the leaf. Tea leafs are one of the highest in oxalates (Causes most kidney stones) but tea is low/moderate in oxalates.
- emptybits 10y ago
  Any insight into whether matcha drinking causes a higher risk of kidney stones? (Drinking matcha is consumption of powdered tea leaves, unlike nearly all other teas where the goal is to steep and then remove the leaves.) Your oxalate reasoning suggests matcha would be worthy of study with respect to kidney stones but I've never that. I'm genuinely curious because research suggests consuming leaf solids can be very health-supporting in other ways. e.g. including kidney support to slow progression of diabetes, reducing blood lipid & glucose levels, etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735169 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735169 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26448271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26448271
  - baldfat 10y ago
    Well oxalate levels between Black and Green tea is pretty huge it appears. > black tea in tea bags and loose tea leaves were 4.68 and 5.11 milligrams per gram of tea. Green teas and oolong tea had lower oxalate amounts, ranging from .23 to 1.15 milligrams per gram of tea. http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-recipe-doctor/2008/06/tea-and-kidney-stones.html http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-recipe-doctor/2008/06/tea-and...
- problems 10y ago
  I drink a fairly high amount of black tea (about 1.5L/day) and I had read about this before a bit, but couldn't find any clear answers - what's the risk of developing kidney stones and will I have fair warning signs before permanent damage?
stiGGG 10y ago
In my opinion tea is the most underrated hacker drink, at least in Germany. In all companies everybody drinks coffee all day long. If u drink tea, you are an alien. Especially if u prefer loose leaf tea over the the dust in bags from the supermarket, you are a little weird. I hoped the big Club Mate hype could bring some people into the tea camp, but omg even the most of the few people who drink tea doesn't know why chamomile tea isn't actually a tea...
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  I recently read Freud's "Cocaine Papers" and I want to get into drinking Coca tea (known as mate de coca in south america), but I live in the US. Not sure if they'd allow you to consume what amounts to a cocaine bump per cup of tea...but who knows, maybe our puritanical society may allow it someday.
- scorpioxy 10y ago
  Never heard of the "club mate hype" before. Would that be yerba mate drinks? Edit: Just dug a bit more. Yes it is, carbonated and mixed with some sugar. Yuck. I prefer my yerba mate the traditional way, thank you very much. Also, what's with everybody's obsession with caffeine and productivity? Why not just inject adrenaline right into your heart? Come on, people should use some "more common sense" and not overuse these substances.
jdnier 10y ago
AL (light chain) amyloidosis is a protein folding disease that causes an accumulation of amyloid protein in the organs, and is usually fatal. This green tea compound, EGCG, seems to transform light chain amyloid, "preventing the misshapen form from replicating and accumulating dangerously". More information on the disease here: http://www.amyloidosis.org/facts/al/ http://www.amyloidosis.org/facts/al/
- jdnier 10y ago
  Film actor Michael York has become a spokesman of sorts for people with the disease. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/20/michael-york-battle-with-amyloidosis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/20/michael...

85 points by upen 10y ago

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/green-tea http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/green-tea

Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain) to have an increase in the EGCG levels in your blood of less than 60%. http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/9/3312.long http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/9/3312.long So it seems unlikely that drinking green tea would be a viable treatment.

mhurron 10y ago
This is sort of the reason we invented pills.
- ucaetano 10y ago
  Exactly! But sadly, a lot of people will read the headlines as "if I drink green tea, I'm preventing bone-marrow diseases".
  - mhurron 10y ago
    Pills packaging powdered remains of fruits sell very well, I'm sure people will be fine.
    - ucaetano 10y ago
      I wouldn't be so sure: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicity-of-homeopathic-baby-products-maker-refuses-to-recall/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicit... "After investigating reports that more than 400 babies were sickened and 10 died in connection with homeopathic teething products, the Food and Drug Administration confirmed Friday that it had indeed found elevated levels of the toxic substance, belladonna, in the products."
- baldfat 10y ago
  KIDNEY STONES if they contain the tea leaf. Now green and white teas have catechins which may help break down kidney stones but those are break down when exposed to oxygen or sunlight.
  - samstave 10y ago
    How are these compounds prevented from sunlight induced breakdown if they occur in the leaf of a plant?
    - grzm 10y ago
      They're part of a living system that actively repairs, (re)generates the compounds. Same type of thing that prevents you from decomposing while you're still alive.
- QUFB 10y ago
  And there are at least 60 cases of liver damage, including many fatalities, caused by Green Tea extract: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/green-tea-extract-diet-cbc-marketplace-1.3964073 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/green-tea-extract-diet-cbc-mar...
  - samstave 10y ago
    What about Tumeric extract and also intravenous vitamin-C?
X86BSD 10y ago
Actually your statement is false. I drank a gallon of green tea for years before switching to a gallon of white tea every day. I've never been nauseated or had pain from that. Ever. I pee every 20 minutes but it's never made me sick.
- marricks 10y ago
  Is this serious? If so, any particular reason why you did?
  - X86BSD 10y ago
    I started this well over a decade ago, perhaps 20 years? The average person does not get NEARLY enough water per day. That was one reason, but the main reason was I knew about the anti-cancer affects of green tea as well as other healthy effects. And over the years I had nurses and medical doctors in my family tell me white tea was healthier for you that green tea. Lower caffeine, more of the same compounds and benefits green tea had. So I switched over to white tea. I am still drinking a gallon each day. Will I still get cancer? Maybe. But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it. You eat a large quantity of red meat and processed red meat. That increases your risk of cancer.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        Wat? How do you know OP's protein preferences? [EDIT:] ...wow. Just, wow. Do you use a spreadsheet to track the dietary preferences of various HN commentators, or do you have a frighteningly effective memory?
        DanBC 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947340#11948143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947340#11948143 > Ive been an atkins follower for... 20 years. I eat mostly meat.
vanattab 10y ago
>Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain) I might not drink a gallon but I get close. If you find you get nauseous after a couple of cups of tea (green tea especially) your probably brewing the tea too hot or for too long. Overdoing ether will let tasty bitter tasting ND nauseating componds to leach. 170F deg is about perfect for most green teas. Higher for blacks.
- ucaetano 10y ago
  The nausea and pain is mostly due to the caffeine intake. After you're addicted, that largely goes away.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
So about 7-8 of these per day: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Green-Extract-400mg/dp/B001DNV5CA?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Green-Extract-400mg/dp/B001... For the nootropic and supplement crowd adding something like this would be trivial to swallow and manufacturers will probably start selling more potent pills if the market demands it. Its also interesting to know the the 'miracle' supplement theanine is also a green tea derivative. Every stack I've seen on nootropic forums seem to contain it, especially as it cancels out the overly stimulating effects of caffeine, but leaves the focus effects in. I wonder what more secrets green tea leaves hold and if they're more than partly responsible for Japan's impressive longevity.
sweettea 10y ago
I too drink 1-2 gallons of green tea per day. I drink looseleaf exclusively, with a supplier who's checked on fluoride levels for me, and find I stay hydrated and happy much better on this specific (tamaryokucha) green tea than on any other caffeine source.
- samstave 10y ago
  I find your mention of fluoride interesting... I have always wondered (just because I am curious) how one could actually avoid intake of any fluoride given the many types of fluids humans can drink; are all beer crafters using fluoridated waters? Wine makers? Soda? Every bottled water? Juices? What drinks can be verifiably lacking fluoridation?
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    A used Milli-Q system (makes ultra-pure deionized water for scientific research) is only a few hundred bucks on ebay. Mind you, drinking water deionized to such levels will actually accelerate teeth decay, and has been shown to give organ damage and other unpleasant side effects in mice who were given it for long term consumption. Though I suppose you could go through the hassle of deionizing the water, and then adding back just the ions you trust (Ca, Na, Mg, Cl, etc.). For a more pragmatic approach, you could just limit yourself to bottled water, beer and wine imported from Europe; >99% of all European drinking water is non-fluoridated.
    - Neliquat 10y ago
      It depends, many water sources are naturally flurodated to levels equal to treated systems. At least 3 cities I know of in the USA regularly add no additional fluoride to meet standard levels.
ayu 10y ago
Consider co-supplementation with quercetin, which increases the bioavailability of green tea catechins. https://examine.com/supplements/green-tea-catechins/?PageSpeed=noscript#summary15-4 https://examine.com/supplements/green-tea-catechins/?PageSpe...

jaboutboul 10y ago

can we update the title to reflect what the condition actually is? Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal multiple myeloma

jdnier 10y ago
No, it affects protein folding in light chain amyloidosis, which often accompanies MM, but is a disease in itself. “The ECGC pulled the light chain into a different type of aggregate that wasn’t toxic and didn’t form fibril structures,” as happens to organs affected by amyloidosis.

baldfat 10y ago

I always find it funny how they test Green, Black, White or Oolong Teas separately. All teas (Not herbal infusions) are all from the same plant, Camellia sinensis. The only difference is when they are picked and for black tea they are oxidized. The only thing chemistry I have found is caffeine levels. The old belief was the highest Black and the lowest was White. This has proven to be untrue. Pill form would equal KIDNEY STONES if they contained the leaf. Tea leafs are one of the highest in oxalates (Causes most kidney stones) but tea is low/moderate in oxalates.

emptybits 10y ago
Any insight into whether matcha drinking causes a higher risk of kidney stones? (Drinking matcha is consumption of powdered tea leaves, unlike nearly all other teas where the goal is to steep and then remove the leaves.) Your oxalate reasoning suggests matcha would be worthy of study with respect to kidney stones but I've never that. I'm genuinely curious because research suggests consuming leaf solids can be very health-supporting in other ways. e.g. including kidney support to slow progression of diabetes, reducing blood lipid & glucose levels, etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735169 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735169 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26448271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26448271
- baldfat 10y ago
  Well oxalate levels between Black and Green tea is pretty huge it appears. > black tea in tea bags and loose tea leaves were 4.68 and 5.11 milligrams per gram of tea. Green teas and oolong tea had lower oxalate amounts, ranging from .23 to 1.15 milligrams per gram of tea. http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-recipe-doctor/2008/06/tea-and-kidney-stones.html http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-recipe-doctor/2008/06/tea-and...
problems 10y ago
I drink a fairly high amount of black tea (about 1.5L/day) and I had read about this before a bit, but couldn't find any clear answers - what's the risk of developing kidney stones and will I have fair warning signs before permanent damage?

stiGGG 10y ago

In my opinion tea is the most underrated hacker drink, at least in Germany. In all companies everybody drinks coffee all day long. If u drink tea, you are an alien. Especially if u prefer loose leaf tea over the the dust in bags from the supermarket, you are a little weird. I hoped the big Club Mate hype could bring some people into the tea camp, but omg even the most of the few people who drink tea doesn't know why chamomile tea isn't actually a tea...

HeavenBanned 10y ago
I recently read Freud's "Cocaine Papers" and I want to get into drinking Coca tea (known as mate de coca in south america), but I live in the US. Not sure if they'd allow you to consume what amounts to a cocaine bump per cup of tea...but who knows, maybe our puritanical society may allow it someday.
scorpioxy 10y ago
Never heard of the "club mate hype" before. Would that be yerba mate drinks? Edit: Just dug a bit more. Yes it is, carbonated and mixed with some sugar. Yuck. I prefer my yerba mate the traditional way, thank you very much. Also, what's with everybody's obsession with caffeine and productivity? Why not just inject adrenaline right into your heart? Come on, people should use some "more common sense" and not overuse these substances.

jdnier 10y ago

AL (light chain) amyloidosis is a protein folding disease that causes an accumulation of amyloid protein in the organs, and is usually fatal. This green tea compound, EGCG, seems to transform light chain amyloid, "preventing the misshapen form from replicating and accumulating dangerously". More information on the disease here: http://www.amyloidosis.org/facts/al/ http://www.amyloidosis.org/facts/al/

jdnier 10y ago
Film actor Michael York has become a spokesman of sorts for people with the disease. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/20/michael-york-battle-with-amyloidosis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/20/michael...