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Economics allows us to directly measure these things and the price of labor hasn't gone up in the last 30 years... Real compensation per hour (for workers as a

Economics allows us to directly measure these things and the price of labor hasn't gone up in the last 30 years... Real compensation per hour (for workers as a whole) has gone up 40% since 1987. This number is adjusted for inflation. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB Pay in software has been rising more rapidly than pay for the country as a whole. Is this even remotely in doubt? http://insights.dice.com/2013/01/22/tech-professionals-enjoy-biggest-raise-in-a-decade/ http://insights.dice.com/2013/01/22/tech-professionals-enjoy...

anjc 10y ago
There are studies performed on this stuff by actual economists out there, to save you using self-reporting surveys from online recruitment companies. http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi... >The average hourly wage for college-educated workers in computer and math occupations rose 5.3 percent over 11 years, from $37.27 in 2000 to $39.24 in 2011 (in 2012 dollars), which translates to an average wage increase of less than half a percent per year. If a labor shortage existed in these occupations, one would expect wages to rise sharply as employers try to lure scarce workers to their firms.
- arjie 10y ago
  2000? At the peak of the dot-com boom?
  - crusso 10y ago
    Yeah, that's the part that had me scratching my head. Any study that makes no attempt to smooth out dramatic outlier time periods is highly suspect.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  If your study is claiming that software engineer compensation rose no more rapidly than the population at as a whole (they also saw a 5% increase), then something is deeply wrong with your study. Note that "Computer and math occupations" is a broad catch-all term which includes all sorts of professions, such as: Computer User Support Specialist: Provide technical assistance to computer users. Answer questions or resolve computer problems for clients in person, or via telephone or electronically. May provide assistance concerning the use of computer hardware and software, including printing, installation, word processing, electronic mail, and operating systems. Excludes "Network and Computer Systems Administrators" (15-1142). https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes150000.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes150000.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151151.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151151.htm No one claimed that the guy who fixes your printer or helps you change the font in word experienced large pay increases.
  - anjc 10y ago
    If your contention that it rose is based on your experience in SV or NY or similar, then you're probably not getting a complete picture of the state of the industry.
  - Amezarak 10y ago
    Here in flyover country, companies are paying new-grad software engineers 30-38k.
    - valuearb 10y ago
      Here in dirt poor arizona new grad software engineers make $70K+
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      And how does cost of living compare? Median salary?
      - Amezarak 10y ago
        Don't get me wrong, the cost of living is much lower than SV, but there are several major industries here that pay 2-3x that rate for less skilled work. Even many service-type jobs pay better. A buddy of mine that dropped out of college was making more money than I did right out of school managing McDonald's. I personally left software engineering (regretfully, I love it, and still do what personal projects I can) to do a government job that is at least somewhat technical that constituted a massive raise over my old salary - and as I worked there for a few years and was a high performer, I did get several big raises before leaving.
Apocryphon 10y ago
For American workers as a whole, the average hourly wage has about the same purchasing power as it did in 1979. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-wor...
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Congrats - you've discovered that compensation has shifted from taxable wages to untaxed benefits. If you want to solve this then ban employer sponsored health care, matched 401k contributions, and all that.
  - Apocryphon 10y ago
    The WWII-era holdover of making American employers be responsible for their employee healthcare is definitely something that should be gradually reformed out of existence. It used to be an incentive, not a necessity. And as for 401(k)s, well that's another can of worms that needs to be dealt with: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304027
mcguire 10y ago
So, 1.1% annualized? Do you have numbers for productivity?

anjc 10y ago

There are studies performed on this stuff by actual economists out there, to save you using self-reporting surveys from online recruitment companies. http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi... >The average hourly wage for college-educated workers in computer and math occupations rose 5.3 percent over 11 years, from $37.27 in 2000 to $39.24 in 2011 (in 2012 dollars), which translates to an average wage increase of less than half a percent per year. If a labor shortage existed in these occupations, one would expect wages to rise sharply as employers try to lure scarce workers to their firms.

arjie 10y ago
2000? At the peak of the dot-com boom?
- crusso 10y ago
  Yeah, that's the part that had me scratching my head. Any study that makes no attempt to smooth out dramatic outlier time periods is highly suspect.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
If your study is claiming that software engineer compensation rose no more rapidly than the population at as a whole (they also saw a 5% increase), then something is deeply wrong with your study. Note that "Computer and math occupations" is a broad catch-all term which includes all sorts of professions, such as: Computer User Support Specialist: Provide technical assistance to computer users. Answer questions or resolve computer problems for clients in person, or via telephone or electronically. May provide assistance concerning the use of computer hardware and software, including printing, installation, word processing, electronic mail, and operating systems. Excludes "Network and Computer Systems Administrators" (15-1142). https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes150000.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes150000.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151151.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151151.htm No one claimed that the guy who fixes your printer or helps you change the font in word experienced large pay increases.
- anjc 10y ago
  If your contention that it rose is based on your experience in SV or NY or similar, then you're probably not getting a complete picture of the state of the industry.
- Amezarak 10y ago
  Here in flyover country, companies are paying new-grad software engineers 30-38k.
  - valuearb 10y ago
    Here in dirt poor arizona new grad software engineers make $70K+
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    And how does cost of living compare? Median salary?
    - Amezarak 10y ago
      Don't get me wrong, the cost of living is much lower than SV, but there are several major industries here that pay 2-3x that rate for less skilled work. Even many service-type jobs pay better. A buddy of mine that dropped out of college was making more money than I did right out of school managing McDonald's. I personally left software engineering (regretfully, I love it, and still do what personal projects I can) to do a government job that is at least somewhat technical that constituted a massive raise over my old salary - and as I worked there for a few years and was a high performer, I did get several big raises before leaving.

Apocryphon 10y ago

For American workers as a whole, the average hourly wage has about the same purchasing power as it did in 1979. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-wor...

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Congrats - you've discovered that compensation has shifted from taxable wages to untaxed benefits. If you want to solve this then ban employer sponsored health care, matched 401k contributions, and all that.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  The WWII-era holdover of making American employers be responsible for their employee healthcare is definitely something that should be gradually reformed out of existence. It used to be an incentive, not a necessity. And as for 401(k)s, well that's another can of worms that needs to be dealt with: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304027

mcguire 10y ago

So, 1.1% annualized? Do you have numbers for productivity?