6 ms·

While I disagree with the travel ban, let's remember that the primary objection that the tech industry has to it is that it will disrupt the flow of cheap talen

While I disagree with the travel ban, let's remember that the primary objection that the tech industry has to it is that it will disrupt the flow of cheap talent that it uses to boost its multi-billion dollar profits at the expense of US-educated engineers that would demand higher salaries and benefits. This group of companies may not garner much sympathy.

ig1 10y ago
H1B salaries are public information, if you work at any of these companies it's trivial to check if your company is underpaying H1B holders and report them if that's the case.
- mrtree 10y ago
  Exactly, and they ARE.
gcp 10y ago
Quite a few of the companies on the list are among the highest payers in the USA.
deanCommie 10y ago
I don't know where you get your information, but at the kind of top-tier tech companies that are being discussed here, H1B employees are not getting inferior benefits. And as someone that does a lot of hiring I can guarantee you that the interviewing costs, relocation costs, and language barrier trade-offs do not make up for any salary differences that may or may not occur. We're not talking about some low-tech banks and telcos trying to save a few bux by outsourcing work to india. These are companies that have a high enough bar for entry that they truly cannot hire by looking only locally and must consider the entire world. Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical. Immigrants are heavily represented amongst the tech sector, and we have a deep faith in the success of western nations being directly tied to absorbing people hungry for a new life in a new world. It's not about screwing over people who are already here, it's about making the whole country better as a result. CAVEAT: Am Canadian citizen, am first-generation immigrant. As mentioned, work for a multi-national tech company that is on this list, and hire from around the world. But I work with counterparts on the US side dealing with H1B and know they agree with me.
- downandout 10y ago
  >Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical. Having dealt with senior executives at more than one of the companies on the list, I can tell you that my cynicism is justified. With regard to the rest of your comment, many of these companies do an end run by hiring consulting firms that abuse the H-1B system as a business model, some abuse it directly, and some actually use the system as intended. But to imply that virtually no abuse is occurring is absurd.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > H1B employees are not getting inferior benefit Techtopus involved well payed engineers (google, Apple etc), yet it still kept wages down unfairly; Even if the H1B workers are paid the same, that might be enough to prevent natural wage rises. Furthermore, I'm not sure they are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13552944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13552944 > These are companies that have a high enough bar for entry that they truly cannot hire by looking only locally and must consider the entire world. > Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical How much would it cost to either train local talent, or compete with other wealthy companies for limited talent? I find "we hire only the best, we need to scour the world" to be at odds with there being no financial benefit in skimming the cream off large foreign populations.
- anjc 10y ago
  > Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical How can you be so naïve. You just have to look at the charges against tech companies regarding displacement, or in terms of wage collusion. Or look at the mass layoffs that occur regularly. This is entirely related to saving "a few bux".
- legostormtroopr 10y ago
  > H1B employees are not getting inferior benefits Yes they are. Even the relatively anti-Trump Huffington Post thinks so - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13579226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13579226
pavanky 10y ago
One of these is me: http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Twitter+Inc&job=Senior+Software+Engineer&city=SAN+FRANCISCO&year=2016 http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Twitter+Inc&job=Senior+Soft... I am closer to the higher of the salaries listed. This does not include other kinds of compensation I'll be getting. Let me know if you think I am being underpaid.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  What's the average or expected salary for a senior software engineer working for twitter in SF?
  - pavanky 10y ago
    From what I can tell from glassdoor, I am making a little bit more than average for my level of experience. I don't have any other sources unfortunately.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      I think there is a bias towards lower salaries on GD though. I suspect lower-paid workers are more likely to share (or risk sharing) their compensation?
      - pavanky 10y ago
        I am not sure about that. Other sources I have seen put the median numbers substantially lower than what I make. But they are for all jobs with the same title, so it is a lot harder to compare.
- legostormtroopr 10y ago
  > A: Some people get underpaid. > B: I'm not being underpaid, therefore you are wrong. Thats not refuting his claim.
  - pavanky 10y ago
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
I have a (related) counterpoint. The real problem is that there just aren't that many good US-educated engineers. This boils down to the US's weird college system, where either parents have to save up for their children's tuitions, or the people have to be lucky to get a scholarship. The US is not a land of equal opportunity when it comes to education, which is costing a lot of potential talent to be lost. There's some improvement in 'free' online courses, but that's still only a patch next to a formal education. If the US would invest more in its people and their educations, they wouldn't need as much foreign talent. (spreading work out over the country instead of focusing it in SF would also help)
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > or the people have to be lucky to get a scholarship Scholarships (and financial aid) aren't based on luck. They are based on two things: merit and demonstrated need. (The relative weighting of the two varies by school). It's hard to argue that financial assistance should ignore individual merit or actual financial need, especially since admissions already have a natural cap (not everyone can go to the top school) and that sorting function is largely based on merit.
- Daishiman 10y ago
  This is something that a lot of Americans don't understand. I've met a lot of graduates from Berkeley and Stanford, and they're smart guys certainly, but I can't really say that their coding skills are absolutely outstanding; there's certainly dozens of universities around the world that have similar or superior levels of talent for the kind of skills these companies are looking for.
wiz21c 10y ago
From the brief : >>> The Order makes it more difficult and expensive for U.S. companies to recruit, hire, and retain some of the world’s best employee "More expensive" makes laugh... What were the profits of these companies last year ? Do they really need to shave a few thousands dollar here and there ?
xtreme 10y ago
US educated international students get lumped into the H1B lottery as well.
simonh 10y ago
If this is the case, the answer is to revise the H1B Visa program, not ban everyone with a current visa including a baby travelling to the US for urgent heart surgery. These are people with current approved visas that already are doing a job for these companies that the companies are relying on them doing. This isn't about whether people should or should not have H1B visas. Even if you're completely against the H1B visa program, I don't expect you'd advocate frog-marching every current holder of such a visa out of their offices and shoving them on planes.

ig1 10y ago

H1B salaries are public information, if you work at any of these companies it's trivial to check if your company is underpaying H1B holders and report them if that's the case.

mrtree 10y ago
Exactly, and they ARE.

gcp 10y ago

Quite a few of the companies on the list are among the highest payers in the USA.

deanCommie 10y ago

I don't know where you get your information, but at the kind of top-tier tech companies that are being discussed here, H1B employees are not getting inferior benefits. And as someone that does a lot of hiring I can guarantee you that the interviewing costs, relocation costs, and language barrier trade-offs do not make up for any salary differences that may or may not occur. We're not talking about some low-tech banks and telcos trying to save a few bux by outsourcing work to india. These are companies that have a high enough bar for entry that they truly cannot hire by looking only locally and must consider the entire world. Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical. Immigrants are heavily represented amongst the tech sector, and we have a deep faith in the success of western nations being directly tied to absorbing people hungry for a new life in a new world. It's not about screwing over people who are already here, it's about making the whole country better as a result. CAVEAT: Am Canadian citizen, am first-generation immigrant. As mentioned, work for a multi-national tech company that is on this list, and hire from around the world. But I work with counterparts on the US side dealing with H1B and know they agree with me.

downandout 10y ago
>Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical. Having dealt with senior executives at more than one of the companies on the list, I can tell you that my cynicism is justified. With regard to the rest of your comment, many of these companies do an end run by hiring consulting firms that abuse the H-1B system as a business model, some abuse it directly, and some actually use the system as intended. But to imply that virtually no abuse is occurring is absurd.
Chris2048 10y ago
> H1B employees are not getting inferior benefit Techtopus involved well payed engineers (google, Apple etc), yet it still kept wages down unfairly; Even if the H1B workers are paid the same, that might be enough to prevent natural wage rises. Furthermore, I'm not sure they are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13552944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13552944 > These are companies that have a high enough bar for entry that they truly cannot hire by looking only locally and must consider the entire world. > Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical How much would it cost to either train local talent, or compete with other wealthy companies for limited talent? I find "we hire only the best, we need to scour the world" to be at odds with there being no financial benefit in skimming the cream off large foreign populations.
anjc 10y ago
> Furthermore, your whole implication that the companies care about this from primarily a financial point of view is deeply cynical How can you be so naïve. You just have to look at the charges against tech companies regarding displacement, or in terms of wage collusion. Or look at the mass layoffs that occur regularly. This is entirely related to saving "a few bux".
legostormtroopr 10y ago
> H1B employees are not getting inferior benefits Yes they are. Even the relatively anti-Trump Huffington Post thinks so - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13579226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13579226

pavanky 10y ago

One of these is me: http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Twitter+Inc&job=Senior+Software+Engineer&city=SAN+FRANCISCO&year=2016 http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Twitter+Inc&job=Senior+Soft... I am closer to the higher of the salaries listed. This does not include other kinds of compensation I'll be getting. Let me know if you think I am being underpaid.

Chris2048 10y ago
What's the average or expected salary for a senior software engineer working for twitter in SF?
- pavanky 10y ago
  From what I can tell from glassdoor, I am making a little bit more than average for my level of experience. I don't have any other sources unfortunately.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    I think there is a bias towards lower salaries on GD though. I suspect lower-paid workers are more likely to share (or risk sharing) their compensation?
    - pavanky 10y ago
      I am not sure about that. Other sources I have seen put the median numbers substantially lower than what I make. But they are for all jobs with the same title, so it is a lot harder to compare.
legostormtroopr 10y ago
> A: Some people get underpaid. > B: I'm not being underpaid, therefore you are wrong. Thats not refuting his claim.
- pavanky 10y ago

Cthulhu_ 10y ago

I have a (related) counterpoint. The real problem is that there just aren't that many good US-educated engineers. This boils down to the US's weird college system, where either parents have to save up for their children's tuitions, or the people have to be lucky to get a scholarship. The US is not a land of equal opportunity when it comes to education, which is costing a lot of potential talent to be lost. There's some improvement in 'free' online courses, but that's still only a patch next to a formal education. If the US would invest more in its people and their educations, they wouldn't need as much foreign talent. (spreading work out over the country instead of focusing it in SF would also help)

chimeracoder 10y ago
> or the people have to be lucky to get a scholarship Scholarships (and financial aid) aren't based on luck. They are based on two things: merit and demonstrated need. (The relative weighting of the two varies by school). It's hard to argue that financial assistance should ignore individual merit or actual financial need, especially since admissions already have a natural cap (not everyone can go to the top school) and that sorting function is largely based on merit.
Daishiman 10y ago
This is something that a lot of Americans don't understand. I've met a lot of graduates from Berkeley and Stanford, and they're smart guys certainly, but I can't really say that their coding skills are absolutely outstanding; there's certainly dozens of universities around the world that have similar or superior levels of talent for the kind of skills these companies are looking for.

wiz21c 10y ago

From the brief : >>> The Order makes it more difficult and expensive for U.S. companies to recruit, hire, and retain some of the world’s best employee "More expensive" makes laugh... What were the profits of these companies last year ? Do they really need to shave a few thousands dollar here and there ?

xtreme 10y ago

US educated international students get lumped into the H1B lottery as well.

simonh 10y ago

If this is the case, the answer is to revise the H1B Visa program, not ban everyone with a current visa including a baby travelling to the US for urgent heart surgery. These are people with current approved visas that already are doing a job for these companies that the companies are relying on them doing. This isn't about whether people should or should not have H1B visas. Even if you're completely against the H1B visa program, I don't expect you'd advocate frog-marching every current holder of such a visa out of their offices and shoving them on planes.