5 ms·

I've thought about this in the past, and one thing I dislike about the way willpower is framed in everyday conversation is as a moral judgement. I.e. "he is st

by ux-app 10y ago

I've thought about this in the past, and one thing I dislike about the way willpower is framed in everyday conversation is as a moral judgement. I.e. "he is still smoking because he has a weak will" The implied idea there is that he should try harder. But my personal belief is that we have far less agency than we like to believe. That person with greater ability to say no to certain things (smoking, overeating etc.), can they take credit for superior moral fortitude? I don't think so. That ability to resit <insert vice> was hard-coded in their genes. They can no more take credit for it than a tall person can feel superior for being tall. You don't will yourself to be taller. It's written in your genes. Why would "willpower" be any different? I'm not sure where that leads us though. Do we just throw our hands in the air and say "well, I'm subject to my genes therefore I'll stop trying". That doesn't seem very productive. In reality there probably is an element of hard work involved (although, the rabbit hole continues further. Why are some able to put in the hard work and others not? Genes again.), but there are limits to how much "stronger" you can make your will. Even though I will never beat Usain Bolt in a race I can improve my own PB through hard work, however my total ability is bounded by my genes. It's a liberating view to take. Keep trying and don't fret too much when you fall short of whatever mark you'd ideally like to achieve.

nradov 10y ago
And yet millions of people — including my father and uncle — have successfully quit smoking cold turkey (no nicotine gum or patches) after being addicted for years. So willpower obviously counts for something.
- ux-app 10y ago
  That's not really what I was getting at. My point was that those that do quit <vice> deserve the roughly the same amount of praise as a tall person deserves for being tall. Why did they have the motivation to give up? Not through some personal moral superiority, but rather it was encoded in their genes. How much control did they have over this encoding? None.
  - sn9 10y ago
    I feel like both you and the person you responded to failed to read the article. And you seem to be completely ignoring the environmental factors involved in behavior, which are much more significant than those involved in height (e.g., avoiding malnourishment during the first 20 years of your life). The article mentioned a few of them.
    - ux-app 10y ago
      I'm actually fully in agreement with the article. I just thought I'd chime in with personal view as this idea of will power and moral judgement is extremely pervasive in society. We have, for the most part, only vague control over our actions, wants desires etc. from the article: "The best way forward may be to let go of “willpower” altogether. Doing so would rid us of some considerable moral baggage. Notions of willpower are easily stigmatizing: ... An extreme example is the punitive approach of our endless drug war, which dismisses substance use problems as primarily the result of individual choices." I don't see substance abuse as an issue of moral weakness. It's simply a pre-encoded genetic predisposition. From this it directly follows that those that avoid vices and lead healthy lives also don't deserve any special credit. They are doing it because their genes dictate it. You are, for the most part, along for the ride, good or bad.
      - sn9 10y ago
        Right, but that's still ignoring the environmental component which throws a wrench into your reasoning. Particularly relevant from the article is the part of reframing the problem as a means of kicking addiction. Obviously, this isn't a silver bullet, but it's also part of the evidence against this notion of genetic determinism as predominant factor. (We're in agreement regarding the whole moralizing aspect of this.)
    - tzakrajs 10y ago
      How about you read HN rules first before accusing people of not reading the article.
- pasquinelli 10y ago
  I tried quitting several times, but only really managed it when I was doing it for no reason, kind of as a joke.
- vitaminbandit 10y ago
  That argument only makes sense if you assume your uncle and father have more willpower than the average person who attempts to quit smoking.
deadghost 10y ago
If you want to think like that, then a logical conclusion is that our fate was determined at the beginning of time when the state of the world was pre-seeded from the divine RNG. This is the religious concept of predestination that featured prominently in Luther's Protestant Revolution. It's quite possible our consciousness is just a passenger on the ride and we only think we are making decisions when our actions have been determined before we even think. If the previous statements were true, then a question is "why bother trying?". The ones that believe they can effect change are also the ones that do. Whether this is a consequence of free will or the divine RNG is up for religious and philosophical debate. How do we deal with trying and results? The Bhagavad Gita has some good lines on this that several other religious traditions surely share. Detach yourself from the outcome and fulfill your duty. In this way you will find greater liberation and peace. You may want to brush up on nature vs nurture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture. For those who are rightly skeptical of religion and have written it off entirely, I present you a quote: "All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is the task of Religion to fit man into this lawfulness." - Dune
- dev24333344 10y ago
  Bhagavad Gita !Hinduism is the religion of systematic opression through caste to control everone(who should marry whom, what name one should have e.t.c. by the way this continues till today even by almost all educated non-educated everyone) by brahmins. So quoting gita here definately out of context because gita is written by the brahmins.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
voidr 10y ago
> You don't will yourself to be taller. It's written in your genes. Partially genes and partially other factors: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150513-will-humans-keep-getting-taller http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150513-will-humans-keep-ge... You don't have direct control over this. > Why would "willpower" be any different? Because I can willpower myself out of bed tomorrow early in the morning to go to the gym despite me physically not wanting it. I can make decisions that go against what my natural urges want. My genes don't want me to go to the gym, I would feel more comfortable going to the office an hour and a half later, yet I make the call going against most of my body. You could argue that maybe there are some good parts in my brain that have been there since I was born that help me make these uncomfortable decisions, however I wasn't always like this, during my university years I was making different kinds of choices. If this trait would be genetic, surely it would have been consistent all my life. > But my personal belief is that we have far less agency than we like to believe. What if you have exactly as much agency as you believe that you have? What if the whole thing is in hour head? > however my total ability is bounded by my genes. The great thing about it is that you don't know where does boundaries are, however you can imagine that you know and put limits on yourself, however that will only harm you from reaching your true potential. The fact that you can push yourself harder in some areas more than other does not mean that willpower does not exist, it means that if it exists it's most likely not one dimensional.

by ux-app 10y ago

nradov 10y ago

And yet millions of people — including my father and uncle — have successfully quit smoking cold turkey (no nicotine gum or patches) after being addicted for years. So willpower obviously counts for something.

ux-app 10y ago
That's not really what I was getting at. My point was that those that do quit <vice> deserve the roughly the same amount of praise as a tall person deserves for being tall. Why did they have the motivation to give up? Not through some personal moral superiority, but rather it was encoded in their genes. How much control did they have over this encoding? None.
- sn9 10y ago
  I feel like both you and the person you responded to failed to read the article. And you seem to be completely ignoring the environmental factors involved in behavior, which are much more significant than those involved in height (e.g., avoiding malnourishment during the first 20 years of your life). The article mentioned a few of them.
  - ux-app 10y ago
    I'm actually fully in agreement with the article. I just thought I'd chime in with personal view as this idea of will power and moral judgement is extremely pervasive in society. We have, for the most part, only vague control over our actions, wants desires etc. from the article: "The best way forward may be to let go of “willpower” altogether. Doing so would rid us of some considerable moral baggage. Notions of willpower are easily stigmatizing: ... An extreme example is the punitive approach of our endless drug war, which dismisses substance use problems as primarily the result of individual choices." I don't see substance abuse as an issue of moral weakness. It's simply a pre-encoded genetic predisposition. From this it directly follows that those that avoid vices and lead healthy lives also don't deserve any special credit. They are doing it because their genes dictate it. You are, for the most part, along for the ride, good or bad.
    - sn9 10y ago
      Right, but that's still ignoring the environmental component which throws a wrench into your reasoning. Particularly relevant from the article is the part of reframing the problem as a means of kicking addiction. Obviously, this isn't a silver bullet, but it's also part of the evidence against this notion of genetic determinism as predominant factor. (We're in agreement regarding the whole moralizing aspect of this.)
  - tzakrajs 10y ago
    How about you read HN rules first before accusing people of not reading the article.
pasquinelli 10y ago
I tried quitting several times, but only really managed it when I was doing it for no reason, kind of as a joke.
vitaminbandit 10y ago
That argument only makes sense if you assume your uncle and father have more willpower than the average person who attempts to quit smoking.

deadghost 10y ago

If you want to think like that, then a logical conclusion is that our fate was determined at the beginning of time when the state of the world was pre-seeded from the divine RNG. This is the religious concept of predestination that featured prominently in Luther's Protestant Revolution. It's quite possible our consciousness is just a passenger on the ride and we only think we are making decisions when our actions have been determined before we even think. If the previous statements were true, then a question is "why bother trying?". The ones that believe they can effect change are also the ones that do. Whether this is a consequence of free will or the divine RNG is up for religious and philosophical debate. How do we deal with trying and results? The Bhagavad Gita has some good lines on this that several other religious traditions surely share. Detach yourself from the outcome and fulfill your duty. In this way you will find greater liberation and peace. You may want to brush up on nature vs nurture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture. For those who are rightly skeptical of religion and have written it off entirely, I present you a quote: "All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is the task of Religion to fit man into this lawfulness." - Dune

dev24333344 10y ago
Bhagavad Gita !Hinduism is the religion of systematic opression through caste to control everone(who should marry whom, what name one should have e.t.c. by the way this continues till today even by almost all educated non-educated everyone) by brahmins. So quoting gita here definately out of context because gita is written by the brahmins.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

voidr 10y ago

> You don't will yourself to be taller. It's written in your genes. Partially genes and partially other factors: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150513-will-humans-keep-getting-taller http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150513-will-humans-keep-ge... You don't have direct control over this. > Why would "willpower" be any different? Because I can willpower myself out of bed tomorrow early in the morning to go to the gym despite me physically not wanting it. I can make decisions that go against what my natural urges want. My genes don't want me to go to the gym, I would feel more comfortable going to the office an hour and a half later, yet I make the call going against most of my body. You could argue that maybe there are some good parts in my brain that have been there since I was born that help me make these uncomfortable decisions, however I wasn't always like this, during my university years I was making different kinds of choices. If this trait would be genetic, surely it would have been consistent all my life. > But my personal belief is that we have far less agency than we like to believe. What if you have exactly as much agency as you believe that you have? What if the whole thing is in hour head? > however my total ability is bounded by my genes. The great thing about it is that you don't know where does boundaries are, however you can imagine that you know and put limits on yourself, however that will only harm you from reaching your true potential. The fact that you can push yourself harder in some areas more than other does not mean that willpower does not exist, it means that if it exists it's most likely not one dimensional.