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Perhaps I'm easier to please. The article your linked to was publish in October 2015. Just this year they've added code[0] to support alSurface[1], which I con

Perhaps I'm easier to please. The article your linked to was publish in October 2015. Just this year they've added code[0] to support alSurface[1], which I consider to be a significant (and unexpected) feature improvement. Their news page[2] (to me) shows significant improvements since late 2015 as well, and it looks like the 1.7.x beta is just around the corner[3]. [0] https://github.com/appleseedhq/appleseed/commit/8b0bb02112f7e9e6a4a26882ca6e1e2a2ba98085 https://github.com/appleseedhq/appleseed/commit/8b0bb02112f7... [1] http://www.anderslanglands.com/alshaders/index.html http://www.anderslanglands.com/alshaders/index.html [2] http://appleseedhq.net/news.html http://appleseedhq.net/news.html [3] https://github.com/appleseedhq/appleseed/commit/3dfcad020e0f71fde4015d21e8b39a3daf23e8ac https://github.com/appleseedhq/appleseed/commit/3dfcad020e0f...

Mathnerd314 10y ago
Yeah, there's some progress. But it's slow, compared to other projects. E.g. Tensorflow was released November 2015 and already has 1.7x as many commits and 25x as many committers, and companies like IBM are adding support for it to their toolkits: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/26/ibm-adds-support-for-googles-tensorflow-to-its-powerai-deep-learning-framework/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/26/ibm-adds-support-for-googl... (roughly like what Maya did for Arnold, although Autodesk just bought the whole company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzoHAhODpi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzoHAhODpi8) Maybe it's not possible to make a similar kind of pipeline/platform-type thing for renderers, and they really do need all that material/shader garbage, but I always have been kind of disappointed with the state of the art...
- TulliusCicero 10y ago
  Tensorflow is also managed by the most influential tech company in the world.
  - Mathnerd314 10y ago
    Right; Tensorflow is managed well, and working on it might lead to a job, while appleseed seems like yet another open-source time sink with few prospects. Obviously money isn't everything, so maybe there's a better criteria for judging projects, but at least on the "lasting impact on the world" front appleseed seems to fall short...
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      >Right; Tensorflow is managed well, and working on it might lead to a job Tensorflow's management is not relevant to its popularity. It's been well demonstrated that companies are tripping all over themselves to use anything put out by Google and/or Facebook, regardless of its applicability to the company's actual problem space or the quality of the product as compared to competitors. There are a lot of people out there just itching to find any excuse to blow millions of dollars deploying any open-source project touted by Google or Facebook, often blissfully unaware that these projects are born out of necessity, not amusement, and that Google/FB would've happily been using a mature, out of the box solution if it accommodated their needs. The point is saying "Look at an independent guy's project. It's not even as active as some of Google's projects, and they're just one of the biggest companies in the world! Hah!" is really, really unfair, and doesn't say anything about anything. >Obviously money isn't everything, so maybe there's a better criteria for judging projects, but at least on the "lasting impact on the world" front appleseed seems to fall short... That the project does not now appear poised for world domination doesn't mean it's not significant, influential, or important, or that it won't eventually go on to have a larger-than-expected impact. This is particularly true if it explores an interesting or rarely-used paradigm, or is otherwise noteworthy for its technical excellence. KDE's Konqueror began as a custom web browser for their desktop environment and easily could've been classified "yet another open-source timesink". But its engine, KHTML, became the foundation for WebKit. If someone is interested in making something interesting, there's no reason to begrudge it.
      - Mathnerd314 10y ago
        > There are a lot of people out there just itching to find any excuse to blow millions of dollars deploying any open-source project touted by Google or Facebook Sure, but I was counting commits and contributors, which I don't think can be attributed solely to shallow business decisions. > Look at an independent guy's project. It's not even as active as some of Google's projects, and they're just one of the biggest companies in the world! Hah!" is really, really unfair, and doesn't say anything about anything. They're not that big, only 60,000 people or so AFAICT, compared to e.g. Wal-mart's 2.1 million. And then it's only ~50 people who worked on Tensorflow directly: https://research.google.com/people/BrainTeam.html https://research.google.com/people/BrainTeam.html. Compared to Appleseed's 12: http://appleseedhq.net/about.html http://appleseedhq.net/about.html. Is it really that unfair to compare a 12-person MIT-licensed C++ project on GitHub to a 50-person Apache-licensed C++ project on GitHub? Or to remind everyone that 98% of open source projects fail? > KDE's Konqueror began as a custom web browser for their desktop environment and easily could've been classified "yet another open-source timesink". But its engine, KHTML, became the foundation for WebKit. KDE started in 1996, they wrote an HTML library, they didn't like it, they wrote a second version with a better architecture and ~10 developers. Appleseed doesn't seem to have that reactionary style of development or even that much thought on its design. I think it's easy to distinguish the two cases. > If someone is interested in making something interesting, there's no reason to begrudge it. Right. But I do begrudge them calling it "modern", when they have "no formal roadmap" (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/appleseed-dev/wMA4oWcPTK4 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/appleseed-dev/wMA4oW...) and a long list of features to get to where SIGGRAPH was 5-10 years ago. If they took that one word out I wouldn't have such a problem.
- horse3d 10y ago
  Hello there, "Math Nerd". While you're comparing Appleseeds and Orangepeels, I'd just like to point out that indeed we do need all this material/shader "garbage". If you're disappointed with the state of the art, maybe you don't really understand the state nor the art?
- franzb 10y ago
  It's an honor to even be compared to Tensorflow :) Keep in mind that we all have day jobs and that appleseed is developed by a handful of volunteers in their free time. That probably explains, at least partly, why our progress is "slow".

Mathnerd314 10y ago

Yeah, there's some progress. But it's slow, compared to other projects. E.g. Tensorflow was released November 2015 and already has 1.7x as many commits and 25x as many committers, and companies like IBM are adding support for it to their toolkits: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/26/ibm-adds-support-for-googles-tensorflow-to-its-powerai-deep-learning-framework/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/26/ibm-adds-support-for-googl... (roughly like what Maya did for Arnold, although Autodesk just bought the whole company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzoHAhODpi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzoHAhODpi8) Maybe it's not possible to make a similar kind of pipeline/platform-type thing for renderers, and they really do need all that material/shader garbage, but I always have been kind of disappointed with the state of the art...

TulliusCicero 10y ago
Tensorflow is also managed by the most influential tech company in the world.
- Mathnerd314 10y ago
  Right; Tensorflow is managed well, and working on it might lead to a job, while appleseed seems like yet another open-source time sink with few prospects. Obviously money isn't everything, so maybe there's a better criteria for judging projects, but at least on the "lasting impact on the world" front appleseed seems to fall short...
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    >Right; Tensorflow is managed well, and working on it might lead to a job Tensorflow's management is not relevant to its popularity. It's been well demonstrated that companies are tripping all over themselves to use anything put out by Google and/or Facebook, regardless of its applicability to the company's actual problem space or the quality of the product as compared to competitors. There are a lot of people out there just itching to find any excuse to blow millions of dollars deploying any open-source project touted by Google or Facebook, often blissfully unaware that these projects are born out of necessity, not amusement, and that Google/FB would've happily been using a mature, out of the box solution if it accommodated their needs. The point is saying "Look at an independent guy's project. It's not even as active as some of Google's projects, and they're just one of the biggest companies in the world! Hah!" is really, really unfair, and doesn't say anything about anything. >Obviously money isn't everything, so maybe there's a better criteria for judging projects, but at least on the "lasting impact on the world" front appleseed seems to fall short... That the project does not now appear poised for world domination doesn't mean it's not significant, influential, or important, or that it won't eventually go on to have a larger-than-expected impact. This is particularly true if it explores an interesting or rarely-used paradigm, or is otherwise noteworthy for its technical excellence. KDE's Konqueror began as a custom web browser for their desktop environment and easily could've been classified "yet another open-source timesink". But its engine, KHTML, became the foundation for WebKit. If someone is interested in making something interesting, there's no reason to begrudge it.
    - Mathnerd314 10y ago
      > There are a lot of people out there just itching to find any excuse to blow millions of dollars deploying any open-source project touted by Google or Facebook Sure, but I was counting commits and contributors, which I don't think can be attributed solely to shallow business decisions. > Look at an independent guy's project. It's not even as active as some of Google's projects, and they're just one of the biggest companies in the world! Hah!" is really, really unfair, and doesn't say anything about anything. They're not that big, only 60,000 people or so AFAICT, compared to e.g. Wal-mart's 2.1 million. And then it's only ~50 people who worked on Tensorflow directly: https://research.google.com/people/BrainTeam.html https://research.google.com/people/BrainTeam.html. Compared to Appleseed's 12: http://appleseedhq.net/about.html http://appleseedhq.net/about.html. Is it really that unfair to compare a 12-person MIT-licensed C++ project on GitHub to a 50-person Apache-licensed C++ project on GitHub? Or to remind everyone that 98% of open source projects fail? > KDE's Konqueror began as a custom web browser for their desktop environment and easily could've been classified "yet another open-source timesink". But its engine, KHTML, became the foundation for WebKit. KDE started in 1996, they wrote an HTML library, they didn't like it, they wrote a second version with a better architecture and ~10 developers. Appleseed doesn't seem to have that reactionary style of development or even that much thought on its design. I think it's easy to distinguish the two cases. > If someone is interested in making something interesting, there's no reason to begrudge it. Right. But I do begrudge them calling it "modern", when they have "no formal roadmap" (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/appleseed-dev/wMA4oWcPTK4 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/appleseed-dev/wMA4oW...) and a long list of features to get to where SIGGRAPH was 5-10 years ago. If they took that one word out I wouldn't have such a problem.
horse3d 10y ago
Hello there, "Math Nerd". While you're comparing Appleseeds and Orangepeels, I'd just like to point out that indeed we do need all this material/shader "garbage". If you're disappointed with the state of the art, maybe you don't really understand the state nor the art?
franzb 10y ago
It's an honor to even be compared to Tensorflow :) Keep in mind that we all have day jobs and that appleseed is developed by a handful of volunteers in their free time. That probably explains, at least partly, why our progress is "slow".