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Search this doc for "speculators" to see where this is really coming from. The modern arguments against speculation are just echoes of this. http://www.jrbook

Search this doc for "speculators" to see where this is really coming from. The modern arguments against speculation are just echoes of this. http://www.jrbooksonline.com/Intl_Jew_full_version/ij23.htm http://www.jrbooksonline.com/Intl_Jew_full_version/ij23.htm

_delirium 17y ago
It surely doesn't come from that, which you must know is a kind of lame slander, the usual "the Nazis did [x], so you're a Nazi" non-argument. General attacks on speculation and finance go much further back than anti-Semitic worries about "Jewish finance", to long before the medieval era when European Jews became associated with finance--- the Jewish scriptures themselves, and writings of the early Christians, both have a bunch of attacks on finance in them. Surely the Talmud itself isn't anti-Semitic? And a modern quantitative understanding of the role of speculation is pretty unconnected to Jews (most financiers are atheists or Christians, anyway).
- grandalf 17y ago
  I know it's not 100% derived from that, there are similarities in how it's articulated, though, one must acknowledge.
- asdflkj 17y ago
  Not to take any sides, but you're wrong on two counts. First, Talmud itself may well be anti-Semitic in this sense, only this is irrelevant. For example, the Bible says, quite clearly and redundantly, many things that Christians reject. Bible doesn't matter--Christians and their actions do. Likewise, Judaists matter and not the Talmud. Second, Jews, in the sense of targets of most anti-Semitism beyond the troglodytic variety, are not a religious, but rather a social construct. Hitler wrote this in Mein Kampf, and this is why it's not okay to talk about anymore. The thing that makes it tricky is that while the racial aspect is relevant, it is not relevant in the way that makes criticizing Jews racist. That would have been Jew-by-culture <=> Jew-by-race. Instead, we have Jew-by-culture => Jew-by-race.
  - joe_the_user 17y ago
    Huh? "Talmud itself may well be anti-Semitic in this sense" In what sense? In the sense of attacking speculation since it's been pre-decided that all attacks on financial speculation are anti-semitic going back to Roman times?? The possibility of the Talmud being anti-semitic was simply assumed and implicitly rejected by parent as a standard rhetorical device so I'm not sure what you're driving at here. (and while usual the homily about actions mattering more than words is appropriate in some context, here it's apropo of nothing given that the overall discussion concerns the origin and implications of various criticisms). Modern antisemitism may indeed involve the cultural racial equation you describe but this doesn't demonstrate that either modern finance theory and early Jewish scripture, the criticisms of finance mentioned by parent, have any relation to modern antisemitism.
    - asdflkj 17y ago
      I don't understand your question. Edit: I see that you've edited your post. _delirium's post had two things in it that are incorrect. It was highly rated, so many other people are presumably wrong in the same way. I pointed out why they're wrong. On most other topics, it wouldn't occur to anyone to object to my pointing out why some things are wrong, just because it wasn't apropo [sic] the origin of the thread. This is why I don't talk about this and a few other topics publicly unless I'm anonymous, and mostly even then. People just tell me to shut up, in so many words (and that's if I'm lucky).
      - joe_the_user 17y ago
        The two main point's of Delirium earlier post were: * Critiques of financial speculation go back to times before modern antisemitism. * Modern quantitative critiques of speculation aren't connected modern antisemitism. When I described your points as "Apropo of nothing" I meant related neither to the thread's topic nor Delirium's post. You should be able to read above why.
jfager 17y ago
Anti-semites link Jews to speculation, therefore all criticism of speculation is anti-semitic? Congratulations on the lamest troll I've ever seen on HN.
- grandalf 17y ago
  The motives and moral decay historically attributed to Jews by anti-semites is the same as that currently attributed to speculators. Yes, finance is one area where Jews have historically had significant power and influence, and so the "anti-speculation" rhetoric is often wielded against them.

_delirium 17y ago

It surely doesn't come from that, which you must know is a kind of lame slander, the usual "the Nazis did [x], so you're a Nazi" non-argument. General attacks on speculation and finance go much further back than anti-Semitic worries about "Jewish finance", to long before the medieval era when European Jews became associated with finance--- the Jewish scriptures themselves, and writings of the early Christians, both have a bunch of attacks on finance in them. Surely the Talmud itself isn't anti-Semitic? And a modern quantitative understanding of the role of speculation is pretty unconnected to Jews (most financiers are atheists or Christians, anyway).

grandalf 17y ago
I know it's not 100% derived from that, there are similarities in how it's articulated, though, one must acknowledge.
asdflkj 17y ago
Not to take any sides, but you're wrong on two counts. First, Talmud itself may well be anti-Semitic in this sense, only this is irrelevant. For example, the Bible says, quite clearly and redundantly, many things that Christians reject. Bible doesn't matter--Christians and their actions do. Likewise, Judaists matter and not the Talmud. Second, Jews, in the sense of targets of most anti-Semitism beyond the troglodytic variety, are not a religious, but rather a social construct. Hitler wrote this in Mein Kampf, and this is why it's not okay to talk about anymore. The thing that makes it tricky is that while the racial aspect is relevant, it is not relevant in the way that makes criticizing Jews racist. That would have been Jew-by-culture <=> Jew-by-race. Instead, we have Jew-by-culture => Jew-by-race.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  Huh? "Talmud itself may well be anti-Semitic in this sense" In what sense? In the sense of attacking speculation since it's been pre-decided that all attacks on financial speculation are anti-semitic going back to Roman times?? The possibility of the Talmud being anti-semitic was simply assumed and implicitly rejected by parent as a standard rhetorical device so I'm not sure what you're driving at here. (and while usual the homily about actions mattering more than words is appropriate in some context, here it's apropo of nothing given that the overall discussion concerns the origin and implications of various criticisms). Modern antisemitism may indeed involve the cultural racial equation you describe but this doesn't demonstrate that either modern finance theory and early Jewish scripture, the criticisms of finance mentioned by parent, have any relation to modern antisemitism.
  - asdflkj 17y ago
    I don't understand your question. Edit: I see that you've edited your post. _delirium's post had two things in it that are incorrect. It was highly rated, so many other people are presumably wrong in the same way. I pointed out why they're wrong. On most other topics, it wouldn't occur to anyone to object to my pointing out why some things are wrong, just because it wasn't apropo [sic] the origin of the thread. This is why I don't talk about this and a few other topics publicly unless I'm anonymous, and mostly even then. People just tell me to shut up, in so many words (and that's if I'm lucky).
    - joe_the_user 17y ago
      The two main point's of Delirium earlier post were: * Critiques of financial speculation go back to times before modern antisemitism. * Modern quantitative critiques of speculation aren't connected modern antisemitism. When I described your points as "Apropo of nothing" I meant related neither to the thread's topic nor Delirium's post. You should be able to read above why.

jfager 17y ago

Anti-semites link Jews to speculation, therefore all criticism of speculation is anti-semitic? Congratulations on the lamest troll I've ever seen on HN.

grandalf 17y ago
The motives and moral decay historically attributed to Jews by anti-semites is the same as that currently attributed to speculators. Yes, finance is one area where Jews have historically had significant power and influence, and so the "anti-speculation" rhetoric is often wielded against them.