4 ms·

developers go where there is money to be made. only having xcode on osx/macos hasn't hurt apple a bit.

0x0 10y ago
Developers also very often go where the system is convenient and open and developer-friendly, see: the rise of linux, php, rails, node, mysql, wordpress, git; and android vs windows phone/mobile.
- tormeh 10y ago
  On server I think this is correct. On consumer devices this is really not the case. Has any platform with a huge consumer base ever died by being abandoned by developers first, as opposed to device owners?
- mikewhy 10y ago
  Isn't Apple still in the better position here? Since it comes with Unix-friendly tools, and most of the languages and tools you listed.
  - 0x0 10y ago
    Do you think you'll be able to use those tools in a gatekeeper-MAS-only world? Or if Apple ships prebuilt versions, how well supported will they be by the authors of those tools if they can't develop and compile new versions on the platform on their own? For a preview of the future, try this one on macOS 10.12 today: % lldb --one-line run /usr/bin/python spoiler: Current executable set to '/usr/bin/python' (x86_64). error: process exited with status -1 (cannot attach to process due to System Integrity Protection)
    - acdha 10y ago
      Your example is just showing that Apple picked decent security defaults for binaries which they ship. SIP can be disabled any time you want and it doesn't apply to things you compile. There is a genuine argument about control but overselling it just lowers your credibility, especially since it reveals tunnel vision: statistically very few Mac users need to run a debugger but more are at risk for malware which uses sensitive APIs.
      - 0x0 10y ago
        I don't feel like I'm overselling this for developers (which this thread is all about). I've hit the SIP block several times trying to genuinely debug my python and ruby scripts. Sure I can disable SIP on today's intel macbooks, but what about the ARM toys that the story is all about? Also, if you have malware getting far enough to try to ptrace binaries running on your uid, I would imagine things are still game over despite being prevented from debugging a new interpreter process. I'm not buying the malware scare when it comes to debugging newly forked processes on a non-root uid. I think your argument would have been valid if I'd never clicked "enable debugging for this mac" in xcode.
endemic 10y ago
Right, but what independent developer is making money on the App Store these days?
api 10y ago
Developers will target Apple, but they won't use Apple or like Apple. It'll be like Windows during MS's dark years.

0x0 10y ago

Developers also very often go where the system is convenient and open and developer-friendly, see: the rise of linux, php, rails, node, mysql, wordpress, git; and android vs windows phone/mobile.

tormeh 10y ago
On server I think this is correct. On consumer devices this is really not the case. Has any platform with a huge consumer base ever died by being abandoned by developers first, as opposed to device owners?
mikewhy 10y ago
Isn't Apple still in the better position here? Since it comes with Unix-friendly tools, and most of the languages and tools you listed.
- 0x0 10y ago
  Do you think you'll be able to use those tools in a gatekeeper-MAS-only world? Or if Apple ships prebuilt versions, how well supported will they be by the authors of those tools if they can't develop and compile new versions on the platform on their own? For a preview of the future, try this one on macOS 10.12 today: % lldb --one-line run /usr/bin/python spoiler: Current executable set to '/usr/bin/python' (x86_64). error: process exited with status -1 (cannot attach to process due to System Integrity Protection)
  - acdha 10y ago
    Your example is just showing that Apple picked decent security defaults for binaries which they ship. SIP can be disabled any time you want and it doesn't apply to things you compile. There is a genuine argument about control but overselling it just lowers your credibility, especially since it reveals tunnel vision: statistically very few Mac users need to run a debugger but more are at risk for malware which uses sensitive APIs.
    - 0x0 10y ago
      I don't feel like I'm overselling this for developers (which this thread is all about). I've hit the SIP block several times trying to genuinely debug my python and ruby scripts. Sure I can disable SIP on today's intel macbooks, but what about the ARM toys that the story is all about? Also, if you have malware getting far enough to try to ptrace binaries running on your uid, I would imagine things are still game over despite being prevented from debugging a new interpreter process. I'm not buying the malware scare when it comes to debugging newly forked processes on a non-root uid. I think your argument would have been valid if I'd never clicked "enable debugging for this mac" in xcode.

endemic 10y ago

Right, but what independent developer is making money on the App Store these days?

api 10y ago

Developers will target Apple, but they won't use Apple or like Apple. It'll be like Windows during MS's dark years.