10 ms·

Those Aren’t Fighting Words, Dear

325 points by mapleoin 16y ago

mrkurt 16y ago
I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could be a good lesson. I really just want to say: "that was nice to read".
- andywood 16y ago
  Same here. It had me thinking, "Are there more than 5 people in the world with the wisdom and self-assurance to actually pull this off?"
  - irons 16y ago
    Wisdom and self-assurance matter less than the ability to conceive of a world where this kind of a response is possible. As widely-circulated an article as this was creates people capable of pulling it off.
- lidmith 16y ago
  Yes, a very nice read.
- WalterGR 16y ago
  > I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could be a good lesson. ...How does it apply to hackers? Either I'm extremely dense, or everyone is projecting their own opinion on your vague comment.
  - mtinkerhess 16y ago
    My take on it is that the author had a system that wasn't working how she wanted it to (her marriage), and rather than take the obvious approach to the problem (discussion / argument), she understood the system well enough and found an unconventional approach that gave her the results she wanted. Maybe that's a little bit of a stretch? The story is also about understanding what's valuable in life, which folks at HN usually express in their desire to make a living on their own terms outside the traditional workforce. In marriage or employment, finding and keeping those things that are worth having is often really hard work, but if you're lucky it pays off in the end.
tokenadult 16y ago
May 2010 follow-up interview to this 2009 essay by Laura Munson from the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-munson-interview http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-mun... Laura Munson's new book: http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-Think/dp/0399156658/ http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-Think/dp/0399156658...
- mikedmiked 16y ago
  Thanks for sharing. With articles like this I really gain a lot by being able to picture faces to the names used.
- martey 16y ago
  I think the Guardian article was especially insightful because Munson reveals an important reason why her husband "turned around": "His sister got cancer and her husband had just left her and she had five children and she actually died last 4 July." I know why his brother-in-law left his sister, but this event might make him more hesitant about leaving his own wife.
jtbigwoo 16y ago
Steps to writing an annoying article: 1. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a child. 2. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough. 3. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer.
- pyre 16y ago
  > 1. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a child. She was using that as a metaphor. Using an image with which everyone (or at least most people) can identify. Being angry/upset with yourself (or just your situation) and taking it out on others is not something that is restricted to childhood. The metaphor works better in terms of describing the method of dealing with it (i.e. ignoring it, and not allowing the other person to drag you into what is their personal problem). > 2. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough. When people speak of physical abuse, the usual retort is that one is 'tough enough' to defend his or herself, even if the reality is that people in abusive situations are really emotionally weak/co-dependent. Most people that are trying to 'prove' to others that they are impervious to abuse are usually trying to display something that can be seen/evaluated by others so as to be interpreted as 'proof.' They are not usually thinking about the flip-side (the implication that people that do 'allow' themselves to be abused are lacking these traits). > 3. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer. This was the only part that I found mildly annoying. She repeats "I will not suffer," while talking about the ways in which she was suffering, but trying to get on with her life. It may be a good internal motto to use in such times, but in reality she was suffering.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then. Also, from the follow-up article: "I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year-old, and I realise my career is done with and I have to find something else" - not sure if that is really a victory to be proud of?
pook 16y ago
Who knows how to make love stay? “When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us. When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual failure every relationship we enter.” -- Tom Robbins, "Still Life With Woodpecker"
- andywood 16y ago
  For me, the harder problem is finding a partner who will not detract from my substantial existing fulfillment.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - sukuriant 16y ago
    How do you mean, exactly?
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      my guess: (s)he loves <cars>, but all the (wo)men (s)he dates hates <cars> and if (s)he married that (wo)man (s)he'd have to give up <cars>. Replace <cars> with the tag of your choice :) (^ one of the biggest crimes of political correctness: making everything so damn hard to read and full of strange punctuation!) Either that, or (s)he is typically extremely busy with very fulfilling things, and is looking for either a similar partner or a partner who is simply unusually low maintenance.
      - MrFoof 16y ago
        I've run into that dating. The conversation was along the lines of... "So, it's paid off since I bought it with cash. The insurance is cheaper than an economy car. The parts are as cheap as economy cars, save for wear parts. It actually gets pretty decent mileage to boot. Why would I have to get rid of it?" "You just would, that's why!" I had hung out with her for two weeks and apparently her idea of a happy marriage was giving up everything I have, selling all my furniture (despite the fact my apartment has won AWARDS), and buying whatever she fancied - presumably an over-sized home not within walking distance of anything, that'll be a maintenance nightmare after 20 or 30 years, and a crossover. I'm all for compromise, but some gals demand total capitulation instead.
zeynel1 16y ago
“Go trekking in Nepal. Build a yurt in the back meadow. Turn the garage studio into a man-cave. Get that drum set you’ve always wanted. ..." Is there anyone else who finds this a very condescending and nasty thing to say? This ought to sound to her husband like fighting words.
- joezydeco 16y ago
  When you're married and have the feelings like the husband did in this story it will make a lot more sense.
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    If there's ever a time when my wife distills my desires to building a "man cave" or "trekking" that's when I know I married the wrong woman.
    - abstractbill 16y ago
      Ok sure, "man cave" is a dumb phrase, but how do you know the husband hadn't regularly talked about trekking in Nepal or converting the garage?
      - joezydeco 16y ago
        "Man Cave" is married-folk slang for "some personal space where I don't mess with your stuff." Have a gaming rig on a table that your wife can't go near? That's a man cave. How about a car project in the garage? Fishing boat out back? Electronics bench full of parts and tools?
      - georgieporgie 16y ago
        My issue with "man cave" is that it's derogatory. A man has a personal hobby he enjoys, which she doesn't understand, so it's addressed with terminology like, "man cave." Really, do you want you wife referring to you as a neanderthal? As for trekking in Nepal, it struck me as a tremendously abbreviated comment. Could, "trekking in Nepal," possibly describe the sort of action a man so distraught wants to take? This is akin to my wife being upset at my emotional distance and refusal to address her needs and, when called on it, I simply say that it's fine if she buys some new shoes. I'm not a fan of sexism, in either direction.
timinman 16y ago
fantastic article. wise woman.
grellas 16y ago
I like to call it a "midlife adjustment" and there is not a person alive who gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level - it really is the transitioning from the phase of life where everything points up to that in-between phase where things slow down, age starts to show itself more, and our mortality looms nearer. We all react to it differently but react we do, unless we are beyond feeling. This piece nicely sets forth how a wife stuck through a pretty tough time with a husband who was adjusting pretty badly. It is a great story of how patience, perseverance, and wisdom can see us through trials. The lesson is that grace should control and guide us where our emotions would lead us to do things we might otherwise regret.
- rjett 16y ago
  "there is not a person alive who gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level" I figure that there are multiple events in everyone's lives like this: quarterlife crisis, midlife crisis, tragedies, deaths of loved ones, broken relationships- these are part of the shared human experience. I occasionally try to remind myself that in all likelihood, I'll have to go through each one of these situations at some point in life. If I mentally prepare for them in the present, it usually doesn't take away the pain when I do find my world turned upside down, but it certainly helps me see the light at the end of the tunnel and think more clearly.
  - abstractbill 16y ago
    I'm probably a little unusual in being in my mid-30s and still not having experienced the death of a loved one. I try to tell myself it's inevitable, but I can't bring myself to really believe it - I think unfortunately this means it's going to hit me pretty hard when it actually happens.
- kristiandupont 16y ago
  I am not disagreeing with you but can I just say that you can really only know how it affected you - and as it felt so natural it is easy to assume that everybody is affected in a similar way. I remember reading a pedophile stating that all men were attracted to young girls, deep down in their hearts. Anyone who denied it would be lying, to their surroundings or themselves. It's easy to see how someone who has such desires would think that it applies to everybody because it feels so ingrained. As I said, I am not disagreeing with your point, just making an observation about how easy it is to see one self as the norm.
vtail 16y ago
I forwarded this to my (soon to be ex-) wife. I wish I had such an understanding partner...
- kingkawn 16y ago
  I think that wishing for it to be one way is what makes it not work. This woman's husband didn't want an understanding partner, he wanted a battle. And she didn't want to understand, she just wanted to not get caught up in it herself.
nir 16y ago
Sometimes it seems the quality of HN is deteriorating, and then a submission like this, which you'd think one has to be at least 35 to even understand, gets 149 points. Pretty amazing.
- adriana 16y ago
  This is because relationships are paramount to programming languages, start-ups, gadgets, etc.
georgieporgie 16y ago
I remember when this came up on Reddit a year ago. Summary: hold on to your man by emasculating him, then wait for enough depression to kick in that it suppresses his urge to improve his life. Also, I'm going to guess that most of her fond remembrances of romantically planning their future together primarily reflect what she hoped for, not what he did. In other news: people who write long-winded, self-obsessive essays and books tend to be self-absorbed.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  He wasn't emasculated. He was free to actually leave any time he wanted. She just called his bluff and he turned out to be unwilling to really go through with it.
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    I think he'd been emasculated for quite some time. As others have mentioned, she views and treats him as a child having a tantrum.
aoriste 16y ago
personally, I think that the husband was lucky to last as long as he did without succumbing to torpid disillusionment with himself, his potentialities, and his powers. I'm so jaded and disgusted with myself most of the time that I tend to not trust anybody who doesn't seem to want to blow their own brains out.
jdietrich 16y ago
I'd like to make a thoughtful comment, but I'm struggling to get past the phrase 'age-appropriate'. As someone who has never been 'appropriate' to their chronological age in any respect, it always comes across as reductive, patronising and ultimately dehumanising. It seems to me to be the product of a worldview which sees children not as distinctive individuals with unique preferences and aptitudes, but as mere larvae passing through 'developmental stages'. I consider it an affront to the dignity of all children and my teeth are set on edge every time I hear it. OK, <thoughtful comment>. If I expressed my deepest feelings to someone who was close to me, the most painful response I could imagine is "I don't buy it". If they spat at me or hit me, then at least they heard me, took me seriously and emotionally engaged with what I am saying. To hear "I don't buy it" is to be told "I don't recognise your feelings as valid", it is to be told "you don't matter, I'm the one in this relationship that decides what we feel about things". To hear "What can we do to give you the distance you need" is to be told what you need, not asked. When he said "I don't like what you've become", she didn't want to hear what he didn't like, she didn't want to engage, she didn't even acknowledge what he was saying, she just invalidated him and shut the discussion down with "I don't buy it". There's a good chance I'm being grossly unfair, but I can't see anything but an emotionally manipulative woman, breaking the spirit of her husband by refusing to engage with him emotionally. I see a man who has had his every thought and feeling dismissed for years, who has become scarcely able to recognise his own emotional autonomy. When he says “You’re going to make me go into therapy. You’re not going to let me move out. You’re going to use the kids against me.”, I don't see paranoia, I see a man who had a damned good idea of what he was in for; Her only statements of any real meaning were to tell him “What can we do to give you the distance you need, without hurting the family?”, “[do] anything but hurting the children and me” and “It’s not age-appropriate to expect children to be concerned with their parents’ happiness. Not unless you want to create co-dependents who’ll spend their lives in bad relationships and therapy.”. They all sound an awful lot to me like some things you might say in order to manipulate someone into not leaving by using their kids against them. Of course we know nothing about their relationship prior to this incident and very little about it since, but I find what we do know to be deeply troubling. It seems to me that every aspect of this situation screams "PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST". She seems completely unable to recognise the thoughts and feelings of others, and seems to simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that there is an objective reality beyond her own imagination that she is unable to control. As I said, I could be being grossly unfair, but everything about this story sits badly with me and I find it deeply worrying to see this woman unquestioningly lauded as wise and enlightened. </thoughtful comment>
andreyf 16y ago
So I took this advice a bit too literally when this article came out, and was in denial about all the tantrums my wife was throwing. This weekend, she told me she's hired a lawyer and moved out with my daughter. Should I "buy it" yet?
- abstractbill 16y ago
  It wasn't advice, it was an anecdote. I'm very sorry to hear what you're going through though, I can only imagine what that must be like.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    Good point. I certainly shouldn't blame anything on a year-old article, it's just what came to mind re-reading it. Thanks for the kind words, although I can't imagine anyone can imagine what this might be like - at least I sure couldn't. :-/
- wildwood 16y ago
  To whatever extent this article had any advice, it was not to ignore the tantrums, but to ignore the attacks. The author responded to "I don't love you any more" with "what can we do to make this better for you?" If you took a similar approach, refused to engage in the personal attacks, repeatedly tried to find common ground and ways to fix the problems, and your wife still left... well, you did everything you realistically could. Your focus now should be on maintaining your relationship with your daughter, IMO.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    That's probably the most encouraging advice I've gotten. Thanks.
- tome 16y ago
  Sorry to hear about your wife, but this article was definitely not about denial.
ericb 16y ago
I read this a little differently. I think she made a smart bet. It seems to me he was having an affair. Knowing that most relationships don't work out, she positioned herself perfectly to pick up the pieces when it failed.
jodrellblank 16y ago
I find it an interesting comparison with the "I want to quit my job" feeling. Except I'm stonewalling myself because I know the unhappiness is in my head and that with a change of opinion it wouldn't exist anymore.
balakk 16y ago
I'm not going to comment on the lady - but there's one thing I wish; to hear the other side of the story.
mmaunder 16y ago
She's a megalomaniac and he's a baby. I'll bet they both had extremely dominant mothers.
jaytee_clone 16y ago
That's a very Zen way of dealing with conflicts. The level of self-control to pull this off is admirable and something to learn from.
rikthevik 16y ago
I'm surprised no one has brought up mental illness. There are very few of us who will make it through life without some kind of depressive episode. Some of use internalize it, some of us lash out and destroy the things around us. I think the author knows very well the character of her husband. She realized that these feelings and changes in him were out of character, and that other things in his life might be causing him serious distress. She was patient, and gave him the chance to leave if he really thought he needed to, and the time to get his head straightened out. What she didn't do was respond to his lashing out, making the situation worse. As I see it, she stuck by her husband as he was having a hell of a time in his life. She knew the kind of man he is, and that he'd be back.
pxstock 16y ago
I liked the article. But whether or not I agree with the author is irrelevant. What strikes me here most is to see things like this discussed in depth and intelligently in Hacker News. That's magnificent and somehow heart-warming. I have to say: I love this site :-)
confuzatron 16y ago
Ugh. This is like reading about someone training a dog not to crap on the floor.
rmundo 16y ago
Would that we all had someone in our lives who knows and loves us so well. It's not always easy to pinpoint what exactly is it that makes us unhappy. And according to Daniel Gilbert (seriously, check out his book and TED talks), we sort of suck at predicting what does make us happy. And usually, we know what's better for ourselves than anyone else. That's because we have more information about ourselves than anyone else, of course. But it's easy to get lost in the echo chamber of our minds, and that's when a second opinion becomes priceless.
forkandwait 16y ago
I thought that story was awesome, though I completely respect those who hated it. Here is whyb (somewhat stream of conciousness... sorry...): Long term relationships take work and commitment, including possibly long stretches of unhappiness. This article celebrates working toward something besides "fun". A rewarding life is NOT the same as being happy all the time. If you ask me, focusing on happiness above all else is tantamount to addiction, and really bad. ("Self overcoming" is what makes a rewarding life, and self overcoming almost requires suffering; I study math -- suffering is fun once you get the taste...) She wouldn't take the blame for his crappiness, and decided to be OK with herself; she practiced this OK-ness even when it didn't come naturally. I hate to be all curmudgeonly, but between the 1960s and Freud we have adopted a VERY self indulgent ideology which makes me want to puke. (And which has probably fueled a big part of the conservative movement, unfortunately...) I may have other less easily expressed reactions that are coloring my overall gestalt, but I think those sum it up.
0ffworlder 16y ago
Heh, that article is crazy. Have fun with your 20 acre plot 3 kids and pony... Who wants to get married in today's society? Your kids will just send you to an "adult home" anyway. I'd rather be driving a high end bimmer/mercades and be dating a woman 20 years younger than me when those years come around. The "American dream" is a fabrication, have fun with your 20+ years of kids leaching off you, 9-5 job, and all. How about legalizing prostitution, drugs, getting rid of speed limits, compulsory education (12 years of brainwashing) -- then there might be some fun.
iskander 16y ago
>The dreams you set out to achieve in your 20s — gazing into each other’s eyes in candlelit city bistros when you were single and skinny — have for the most part come true. It sounds like her dreams were achieved. His dreams we never hear about.

325 points by mapleoin 16y ago

I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could be a good lesson. I really just want to say: "that was nice to read".

andywood 16y ago
Same here. It had me thinking, "Are there more than 5 people in the world with the wisdom and self-assurance to actually pull this off?"
- irons 16y ago
  Wisdom and self-assurance matter less than the ability to conceive of a world where this kind of a response is possible. As widely-circulated an article as this was creates people capable of pulling it off.
lidmith 16y ago
Yes, a very nice read.
WalterGR 16y ago
> I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could be a good lesson. ...How does it apply to hackers? Either I'm extremely dense, or everyone is projecting their own opinion on your vague comment.
- mtinkerhess 16y ago
  My take on it is that the author had a system that wasn't working how she wanted it to (her marriage), and rather than take the obvious approach to the problem (discussion / argument), she understood the system well enough and found an unconventional approach that gave her the results she wanted. Maybe that's a little bit of a stretch? The story is also about understanding what's valuable in life, which folks at HN usually express in their desire to make a living on their own terms outside the traditional workforce. In marriage or employment, finding and keeping those things that are worth having is often really hard work, but if you're lucky it pays off in the end.

tokenadult 16y ago

May 2010 follow-up interview to this 2009 essay by Laura Munson from the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-munson-interview http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-mun... Laura Munson's new book: http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-Think/dp/0399156658/ http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-Think/dp/0399156658...

mikedmiked 16y ago
Thanks for sharing. With articles like this I really gain a lot by being able to picture faces to the names used.
martey 16y ago
I think the Guardian article was especially insightful because Munson reveals an important reason why her husband "turned around": "His sister got cancer and her husband had just left her and she had five children and she actually died last 4 July." I know why his brother-in-law left his sister, but this event might make him more hesitant about leaving his own wife.

jtbigwoo 16y ago

Steps to writing an annoying article: 1. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a child. 2. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough. 3. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer.

pyre 16y ago
> 1. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a child. She was using that as a metaphor. Using an image with which everyone (or at least most people) can identify. Being angry/upset with yourself (or just your situation) and taking it out on others is not something that is restricted to childhood. The metaphor works better in terms of describing the method of dealing with it (i.e. ignoring it, and not allowing the other person to drag you into what is their personal problem). > 2. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough. When people speak of physical abuse, the usual retort is that one is 'tough enough' to defend his or herself, even if the reality is that people in abusive situations are really emotionally weak/co-dependent. Most people that are trying to 'prove' to others that they are impervious to abuse are usually trying to display something that can be seen/evaluated by others so as to be interpreted as 'proof.' They are not usually thinking about the flip-side (the implication that people that do 'allow' themselves to be abused are lacking these traits). > 3. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer. This was the only part that I found mildly annoying. She repeats "I will not suffer," while talking about the ways in which she was suffering, but trying to get on with her life. It may be a good internal motto to use in such times, but in reality she was suffering.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then. Also, from the follow-up article: "I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year-old, and I realise my career is done with and I have to find something else" - not sure if that is really a victory to be proud of?

pook 16y ago

Who knows how to make love stay? “When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us. When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual failure every relationship we enter.” -- Tom Robbins, "Still Life With Woodpecker"

andywood 16y ago
For me, the harder problem is finding a partner who will not detract from my substantial existing fulfillment.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- sukuriant 16y ago
  How do you mean, exactly?
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    my guess: (s)he loves <cars>, but all the (wo)men (s)he dates hates <cars> and if (s)he married that (wo)man (s)he'd have to give up <cars>. Replace <cars> with the tag of your choice :) (^ one of the biggest crimes of political correctness: making everything so damn hard to read and full of strange punctuation!) Either that, or (s)he is typically extremely busy with very fulfilling things, and is looking for either a similar partner or a partner who is simply unusually low maintenance.
    - MrFoof 16y ago
      I've run into that dating. The conversation was along the lines of... "So, it's paid off since I bought it with cash. The insurance is cheaper than an economy car. The parts are as cheap as economy cars, save for wear parts. It actually gets pretty decent mileage to boot. Why would I have to get rid of it?" "You just would, that's why!" I had hung out with her for two weeks and apparently her idea of a happy marriage was giving up everything I have, selling all my furniture (despite the fact my apartment has won AWARDS), and buying whatever she fancied - presumably an over-sized home not within walking distance of anything, that'll be a maintenance nightmare after 20 or 30 years, and a crossover. I'm all for compromise, but some gals demand total capitulation instead.

zeynel1 16y ago

“Go trekking in Nepal. Build a yurt in the back meadow. Turn the garage studio into a man-cave. Get that drum set you’ve always wanted. ..." Is there anyone else who finds this a very condescending and nasty thing to say? This ought to sound to her husband like fighting words.

joezydeco 16y ago
When you're married and have the feelings like the husband did in this story it will make a lot more sense.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  If there's ever a time when my wife distills my desires to building a "man cave" or "trekking" that's when I know I married the wrong woman.
  - abstractbill 16y ago
    Ok sure, "man cave" is a dumb phrase, but how do you know the husband hadn't regularly talked about trekking in Nepal or converting the garage?
    - joezydeco 16y ago
      "Man Cave" is married-folk slang for "some personal space where I don't mess with your stuff." Have a gaming rig on a table that your wife can't go near? That's a man cave. How about a car project in the garage? Fishing boat out back? Electronics bench full of parts and tools?
    - georgieporgie 16y ago
      My issue with "man cave" is that it's derogatory. A man has a personal hobby he enjoys, which she doesn't understand, so it's addressed with terminology like, "man cave." Really, do you want you wife referring to you as a neanderthal? As for trekking in Nepal, it struck me as a tremendously abbreviated comment. Could, "trekking in Nepal," possibly describe the sort of action a man so distraught wants to take? This is akin to my wife being upset at my emotional distance and refusal to address her needs and, when called on it, I simply say that it's fine if she buys some new shoes. I'm not a fan of sexism, in either direction.

timinman 16y ago

fantastic article. wise woman.

grellas 16y ago

I like to call it a "midlife adjustment" and there is not a person alive who gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level - it really is the transitioning from the phase of life where everything points up to that in-between phase where things slow down, age starts to show itself more, and our mortality looms nearer. We all react to it differently but react we do, unless we are beyond feeling. This piece nicely sets forth how a wife stuck through a pretty tough time with a husband who was adjusting pretty badly. It is a great story of how patience, perseverance, and wisdom can see us through trials. The lesson is that grace should control and guide us where our emotions would lead us to do things we might otherwise regret.

rjett 16y ago
"there is not a person alive who gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level" I figure that there are multiple events in everyone's lives like this: quarterlife crisis, midlife crisis, tragedies, deaths of loved ones, broken relationships- these are part of the shared human experience. I occasionally try to remind myself that in all likelihood, I'll have to go through each one of these situations at some point in life. If I mentally prepare for them in the present, it usually doesn't take away the pain when I do find my world turned upside down, but it certainly helps me see the light at the end of the tunnel and think more clearly.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  I'm probably a little unusual in being in my mid-30s and still not having experienced the death of a loved one. I try to tell myself it's inevitable, but I can't bring myself to really believe it - I think unfortunately this means it's going to hit me pretty hard when it actually happens.
kristiandupont 16y ago
I am not disagreeing with you but can I just say that you can really only know how it affected you - and as it felt so natural it is easy to assume that everybody is affected in a similar way. I remember reading a pedophile stating that all men were attracted to young girls, deep down in their hearts. Anyone who denied it would be lying, to their surroundings or themselves. It's easy to see how someone who has such desires would think that it applies to everybody because it feels so ingrained. As I said, I am not disagreeing with your point, just making an observation about how easy it is to see one self as the norm.

vtail 16y ago

I forwarded this to my (soon to be ex-) wife. I wish I had such an understanding partner...

kingkawn 16y ago
I think that wishing for it to be one way is what makes it not work. This woman's husband didn't want an understanding partner, he wanted a battle. And she didn't want to understand, she just wanted to not get caught up in it herself.

nir 16y ago

Sometimes it seems the quality of HN is deteriorating, and then a submission like this, which you'd think one has to be at least 35 to even understand, gets 149 points. Pretty amazing.

adriana 16y ago
This is because relationships are paramount to programming languages, start-ups, gadgets, etc.

georgieporgie 16y ago

I remember when this came up on Reddit a year ago. Summary: hold on to your man by emasculating him, then wait for enough depression to kick in that it suppresses his urge to improve his life. Also, I'm going to guess that most of her fond remembrances of romantically planning their future together primarily reflect what she hoped for, not what he did. In other news: people who write long-winded, self-obsessive essays and books tend to be self-absorbed.

abstractbill 16y ago
He wasn't emasculated. He was free to actually leave any time he wanted. She just called his bluff and he turned out to be unwilling to really go through with it.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  I think he'd been emasculated for quite some time. As others have mentioned, she views and treats him as a child having a tantrum.

aoriste 16y ago

personally, I think that the husband was lucky to last as long as he did without succumbing to torpid disillusionment with himself, his potentialities, and his powers. I'm so jaded and disgusted with myself most of the time that I tend to not trust anybody who doesn't seem to want to blow their own brains out.

jdietrich 16y ago

I'd like to make a thoughtful comment, but I'm struggling to get past the phrase 'age-appropriate'. As someone who has never been 'appropriate' to their chronological age in any respect, it always comes across as reductive, patronising and ultimately dehumanising. It seems to me to be the product of a worldview which sees children not as distinctive individuals with unique preferences and aptitudes, but as mere larvae passing through 'developmental stages'. I consider it an affront to the dignity of all children and my teeth are set on edge every time I hear it. OK, <thoughtful comment>. If I expressed my deepest feelings to someone who was close to me, the most painful response I could imagine is "I don't buy it". If they spat at me or hit me, then at least they heard me, took me seriously and emotionally engaged with what I am saying. To hear "I don't buy it" is to be told "I don't recognise your feelings as valid", it is to be told "you don't matter, I'm the one in this relationship that decides what we feel about things". To hear "What can we do to give you the distance you need" is to be told what you need, not asked. When he said "I don't like what you've become", she didn't want to hear what he didn't like, she didn't want to engage, she didn't even acknowledge what he was saying, she just invalidated him and shut the discussion down with "I don't buy it". There's a good chance I'm being grossly unfair, but I can't see anything but an emotionally manipulative woman, breaking the spirit of her husband by refusing to engage with him emotionally. I see a man who has had his every thought and feeling dismissed for years, who has become scarcely able to recognise his own emotional autonomy. When he says “You’re going to make me go into therapy. You’re not going to let me move out. You’re going to use the kids against me.”, I don't see paranoia, I see a man who had a damned good idea of what he was in for; Her only statements of any real meaning were to tell him “What can we do to give you the distance you need, without hurting the family?”, “[do] anything but hurting the children and me” and “It’s not age-appropriate to expect children to be concerned with their parents’ happiness. Not unless you want to create co-dependents who’ll spend their lives in bad relationships and therapy.”. They all sound an awful lot to me like some things you might say in order to manipulate someone into not leaving by using their kids against them. Of course we know nothing about their relationship prior to this incident and very little about it since, but I find what we do know to be deeply troubling. It seems to me that every aspect of this situation screams "PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST". She seems completely unable to recognise the thoughts and feelings of others, and seems to simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that there is an objective reality beyond her own imagination that she is unable to control. As I said, I could be being grossly unfair, but everything about this story sits badly with me and I find it deeply worrying to see this woman unquestioningly lauded as wise and enlightened. </thoughtful comment>

andreyf 16y ago

So I took this advice a bit too literally when this article came out, and was in denial about all the tantrums my wife was throwing. This weekend, she told me she's hired a lawyer and moved out with my daughter. Should I "buy it" yet?

abstractbill 16y ago
It wasn't advice, it was an anecdote. I'm very sorry to hear what you're going through though, I can only imagine what that must be like.
- andreyf 16y ago
  Good point. I certainly shouldn't blame anything on a year-old article, it's just what came to mind re-reading it. Thanks for the kind words, although I can't imagine anyone can imagine what this might be like - at least I sure couldn't. :-/
wildwood 16y ago
To whatever extent this article had any advice, it was not to ignore the tantrums, but to ignore the attacks. The author responded to "I don't love you any more" with "what can we do to make this better for you?" If you took a similar approach, refused to engage in the personal attacks, repeatedly tried to find common ground and ways to fix the problems, and your wife still left... well, you did everything you realistically could. Your focus now should be on maintaining your relationship with your daughter, IMO.
- andreyf 16y ago
  That's probably the most encouraging advice I've gotten. Thanks.
tome 16y ago
Sorry to hear about your wife, but this article was definitely not about denial.

ericb 16y ago

I read this a little differently. I think she made a smart bet. It seems to me he was having an affair. Knowing that most relationships don't work out, she positioned herself perfectly to pick up the pieces when it failed.

jodrellblank 16y ago

I find it an interesting comparison with the "I want to quit my job" feeling. Except I'm stonewalling myself because I know the unhappiness is in my head and that with a change of opinion it wouldn't exist anymore.

balakk 16y ago

I'm not going to comment on the lady - but there's one thing I wish; to hear the other side of the story.

mmaunder 16y ago

She's a megalomaniac and he's a baby. I'll bet they both had extremely dominant mothers.

jaytee_clone 16y ago

That's a very Zen way of dealing with conflicts. The level of self-control to pull this off is admirable and something to learn from.

rikthevik 16y ago

I'm surprised no one has brought up mental illness. There are very few of us who will make it through life without some kind of depressive episode. Some of use internalize it, some of us lash out and destroy the things around us. I think the author knows very well the character of her husband. She realized that these feelings and changes in him were out of character, and that other things in his life might be causing him serious distress. She was patient, and gave him the chance to leave if he really thought he needed to, and the time to get his head straightened out. What she didn't do was respond to his lashing out, making the situation worse. As I see it, she stuck by her husband as he was having a hell of a time in his life. She knew the kind of man he is, and that he'd be back.

pxstock 16y ago

I liked the article. But whether or not I agree with the author is irrelevant. What strikes me here most is to see things like this discussed in depth and intelligently in Hacker News. That's magnificent and somehow heart-warming. I have to say: I love this site :-)

confuzatron 16y ago

Ugh. This is like reading about someone training a dog not to crap on the floor.

rmundo 16y ago

Would that we all had someone in our lives who knows and loves us so well. It's not always easy to pinpoint what exactly is it that makes us unhappy. And according to Daniel Gilbert (seriously, check out his book and TED talks), we sort of suck at predicting what does make us happy. And usually, we know what's better for ourselves than anyone else. That's because we have more information about ourselves than anyone else, of course. But it's easy to get lost in the echo chamber of our minds, and that's when a second opinion becomes priceless.

forkandwait 16y ago

I thought that story was awesome, though I completely respect those who hated it. Here is whyb (somewhat stream of conciousness... sorry...): Long term relationships take work and commitment, including possibly long stretches of unhappiness. This article celebrates working toward something besides "fun". A rewarding life is NOT the same as being happy all the time. If you ask me, focusing on happiness above all else is tantamount to addiction, and really bad. ("Self overcoming" is what makes a rewarding life, and self overcoming almost requires suffering; I study math -- suffering is fun once you get the taste...) She wouldn't take the blame for his crappiness, and decided to be OK with herself; she practiced this OK-ness even when it didn't come naturally. I hate to be all curmudgeonly, but between the 1960s and Freud we have adopted a VERY self indulgent ideology which makes me want to puke. (And which has probably fueled a big part of the conservative movement, unfortunately...) I may have other less easily expressed reactions that are coloring my overall gestalt, but I think those sum it up.

0ffworlder 16y ago

Heh, that article is crazy. Have fun with your 20 acre plot 3 kids and pony... Who wants to get married in today's society? Your kids will just send you to an "adult home" anyway. I'd rather be driving a high end bimmer/mercades and be dating a woman 20 years younger than me when those years come around. The "American dream" is a fabrication, have fun with your 20+ years of kids leaching off you, 9-5 job, and all. How about legalizing prostitution, drugs, getting rid of speed limits, compulsory education (12 years of brainwashing) -- then there might be some fun.

iskander 16y ago

>The dreams you set out to achieve in your 20s — gazing into each other’s eyes in candlelit city bistros when you were single and skinny — have for the most part come true. It sounds like her dreams were achieved. His dreams we never hear about.