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I feel like this is due to a peculiarity of how law enforcement works in the USA. Every department and authority has their own law enforcement branch. You've g

I feel like this is due to a peculiarity of how law enforcement works in the USA. Every department and authority has their own law enforcement branch. You've got county sheriffs, state police, highway patrol, campus police, transport police etc. on a local authority level. Then on a federal level, as the paper points out, everyone from the IRS to the Department of Education have their own law enforcement officers. In the rest of the world, police is much more centralised. Here in New Zealand (admittedly a small country), the Police are the only agency with general powers of arrest, and the only department outside the military with firearms. The police don't have fancy equipment, if they need an APC, or helicopters or whatever (the police do have one), they'll borrow it from the Defence Force. It's not like they need to pay for and maintain their own stock to use once in a blue moon. If an agency like the IRD (our tax department) need to raid or arrest someone, they'll get the police to do it. I don't fully understand why the USA isn't like this. I understand why there's federal and local law enforcement, but if the FDA needs to raid and arrest people, why don't they second some FBI agents when they're needed?

mbrookes 10y ago
> campus police This one I've always found bizarre. What is it about American university students in particular that requires there to be an on-site police force?
- gerbal 10y ago
  Most large American Universities are not part of the surrounding town or city. They are in effect their own municipalities.
  - mbrookes 10y ago
    Ah, interesting - thank you! So it's the civic structure rather than a particularly lawless student base. :) Not so bizarre then - just different!
    - arethuza 10y ago
      Is there anywhere else that has the US model? I worked on a UK university campus for a few years and I don't think they had any security guards (certainly I never met any and I was in and out of buildings at all hours) let alone armed police!
      - pjc50 10y ago
        The really ancient ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Constabulary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Constabul... (I think that may be the last left).
      - aninhumer 10y ago
        I think UK universities mostly include limited security in their general pastoral support, rather than having dedicated security guards. So there's someone who can e.g. ask a stranger loitering on campus at night what they're doing, but anything serious will be handled by the police.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - mbreese 10y ago
    Some of the literally are their own municipalities. Two examples: The University of Notre Dame is in Notre Dame, Indiana, which happens to be surrounded by South Bend, Indiana. Same with Stanford... which is technically in Stanford, California.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      Even more literally, the city of College Station, Texas, is a city built around the main campus of Texas A&M. Thus the name.
- janvidar 10y ago
  I've always found this bizarre too, but then all alcohol is prohibited until 21 quite unlike other places. I guess someone has to enforce that, too ?
  - afarrell 10y ago
    That is not generally enforced at universities.
    - noer 10y ago
      I think it depends on some combination the jurisdiction, university & location. It's absolutely enforced where alcohol & alcohol related crime is a problem.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    And there is an ABC store right next to the campus that specialises in cheap vodka.
- afarrell 10y ago
  For universities in metropolitan areas, the advantage is in having police that are specialised to handling issues more common to universities (drinking/drug use), implementing policies like a good samaritan policy around drug overdose reporting, being a closer part of the community, and taking part in planning exercises for on-campus emergencies. Source: When I studied at MIT, I volunteered with two different organisations that liaised with the police. I observed an active shooter tabletop roleplaying exercise. (no, it did not involve dice)
  - mcguire 10y ago
    This is also the reason the National Park Service has its own law enforcement rangers, various state fish and game organizations have game wardens, and likely the EPA had its own special agents, among others. Not only are the issues specialized, the laws are as well.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Jurisdiction issues in America were already pointed out, but I'd also remind that in the Old World, universities and their campuses traditionally enjoyed certain kinds of autonomy. This could even extend to immunity from prosecution by regular authorities, with the university as its own jurisdiction handling at least some offences autonomically. This is, I believe, now completely a thing of the past almost everywhere, but America being rather conservative, there could be echoes of it around.
  - daurnimator 10y ago
    The University of Melbourne in Australia has a similar carry over. The majority of the university is on crown land, in an arrangement where most state laws do not apply (however federal law does). The state police have a standing invitation to go on campus if it's in reply to a "violent crime", but otherwise should never be there. However... the university does not have it's own police force: they just have clueless Wilson's Security personnel like any normal industrial site.
    - ajdlinux 10y ago
      I've heard things along the lines of "most state laws do not apply (however federal law does)" before, but never with a citation. Pretty sure that's just urban legend.
      - daurnimator 10y ago
        > Pretty sure that's just urban legend. It might be. I just had a look around for a citation and didn't find much. However I do recall a law student finding something in the university by-laws about it (however that shouldn't overrule state law... unless it does). I found http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UWSLawRw/2002/3.html http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UWSLawRw/2002/3.html but the University of Melbourne seems to be victorian crown land (since at least 2000 http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubPDocs_Arch.nsf/5da7442d8f61e92bca256de50013d008/DF2B7C19F7A5560BCA2570D90001FC92/$FILE/541145bi1.pdf http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubP...) rather than commonwealth crown land. I don't know enough about property and title in Victoria to make a call here.
- julian_t 10y ago
  The one that caused me to do a double take was the "postal police"... the postal service, at least in New York, appears to have its own police force.
  - briffle 10y ago
    Railroad police are even more interesting. Private security given full arrest powers.
    - Turing_Machine 10y ago
      That depends on the state and what kind of railroad police you're talking about. In California they are full sworn officers who have general police powers (i.e., they're not limited to operating on railroad property). In other states it's different. Amtrak police are federal agents with nationwide jurisdiction. That makes some degree of sense when you realize that pursuit might easily cover several states. The crime itself might even cover several states -- imagine someone burglarizing sleeping compartments on the train. When he hits the first one the train is in Minnesota, but by the time he finishes, the train is in Wisconsin. Having federal jurisdiction avoids pissing contests about which state has authority. The situation is similar for the sky marshals on planes.
  - Inconel 10y ago
    The USPS is a federal agency so it's not limited to NY, USPS police are federal agents. I believe they traditionally have dealt with a lot of mail fraud and child pornography investigations.
  - paulmd 10y ago
    Another fun one, the Supreme Court has their own police force with 145 members. There are quite a few of these micro-police forces in the US system.
- wil421 10y ago
  Don't forget the Boston bombers ran to MIT and killed a security guard. While this is an extreme case some University are in urban environments. Take GaTech for example, every year someone is robbed or even murdered walking near campus. The campus police usually have to fend off vagrants or drug addicts from nearby.
  - chrishacken 10y ago
    I used to go to Temple in Philadelphia and the amount of crime that took place on or near campus definitely warranted its own police department. North Philadelphia isn't the safest place to begin with, but 28,000+ college students fresh out of the nest make easy targets for criminals. There's likely around a dozen "incidents" almost daily. Of the 2 or 3 years I was there, two students were murdered, another committed suicide in the middle of campus, and a few others were shot and survived. The campus police department does its best to make a safe zone around campus with either uniformed officers and/or safety officers on the corners every few blocks outside of campus.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > Of the 2 or 3 years I was there, [...] another committed suicide in the middle of campus, Why does this health problem require police attendance?
      - chrishacken 10y ago
        Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that particular incident; the rest of my points still warrant a higher police presence.
      - wil421 10y ago
        Police are sometimes different from Campus security. Who else is the front line for mental health problems? A medical doctor or psychiatrist isn't going to be on standby rushing waiting for a student to become sucicidal. Campus faculty aren't likely to be trained on this stuff.
- msimpson 10y ago
  "Campus policing originated with the establishment of the Yale Campus Police Department in 1894. Yale, located in New Haven, Connecticut, began an agreement with the New Haven Police Department to have two of their officers assigned exclusively to the campus as a means to deter crime on campus, and to better student-police relations. Shortly thereafter these two officers were hired by Yale to keep law and order on the campus. It was not until 73 years later that most college and university security departments became police departments. With the protest of the Vietnam War, the Kent State incident, and crime increasing on college campuses all over America, most of the 50 states did not pass laws authorizing colleges to have their own campus police department until the late 1960's." Davis, R. (1967). History Of Campus Policing. Retrieved February 2, 2017, from http://www.oocities.org/odupd/ http://www.oocities.org/odupd/
- tw04 10y ago
  In general, it's not about the students, it's about the surrounding public. I know at my university there were several assaults over the 4 years I attended. Every last one was caused by someone from the outside coming onto campus to commit a crime. If, for instance, sexual assault is your thing - a college campus is a pretty good place to find lots of young women who are potentially vulnerable (walking home alone/potentially inebriated). Furthermore, if you're in that approximate age range, it's pretty easy to get lost in the crowd.
- washadjeffmad 10y ago
  A university campus is like a microcity with thousands of people, its own economy separate from the surrounding area, facilities, and rules. Instead of sending off reports and requests to city police (and how many students, staff, and faculty are locals, again?), they can have a single, centralised, limited office to handle public safety and policing. Put another way, it's so everything that happens within the university doesn't eat into municipal or county time and resources, but they can still interoperate with some parity. Look into the Clery Act for more.
knz 10y ago
> In the rest of the world, police is much more centralised... New Zealand (admittedly a small country) The US is broken into "normal" country size blocks - i.e. States. Kiwis have a lot more faith in centralized government though. Many aspects of American society have significant duplication due to a perceived loss in autonomy if resources are consolidated. For example, I live in a metro area of 4 million people that has over 100 local government entities (each suburb has it's own council etc), most with their own emergency services, public works departments, and own set of regulations. It's insane. > The police don't have fancy equipment, if they need an APC, or helicopters They have one helicopter (http://www.police.govt.nz/contact-us/station/air-support-unit http://www.police.govt.nz/contact-us/station/air-support-uni...), it used to be called the "Eagle" when I was a kid growing up in Auckland.
- 67726e 10y ago
  This accounts for our federal / state / local breakdown, but what is a legitimate question is why does the FDA or IRS need a law enforcement division? Why can't there be a federal law enforcement division that works on behalf of federal agencies with a need?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Why can't there be a federal law enforcement division that works on behalf of federal agencies with a need? Because a substantial portion of the work of many agencies involves specialized law enforcement in the domain of responsibility, and it's organizationally inefficient for that to invo love coordinating units where the lowest common level of management is the President of the United States.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Exactly - the IRS and the DEA and the ATF have very different law enforcement objectives and domains but all have legitimate law enforcement requirements. The spotty history of the FBI notwithstanding, it makes more sense to have smaller decentralized law enforcement units specialized in their given area than to have one large agency made up of the same specialized groups.
X86BSD 10y ago
All of those police forces are unrecognized by the Constitution except the Sheriff
- pc86 10y ago
  Where are sheriffs mentions in the Constitution?
  - pdabbadabba 10y ago
    GP is not completely wrong. Many state constitutions do indeed create the office of Sheriff. The federal one does not, of course, because there is no federal sheriff.
  - X86BSD 10y ago
    Each state Constitution will have him listed. He is an officer of the state but sworn to uphold and defend both the state Constitution and the federal Constitution. Answerable only to the people of his county. His job is to protect the law AND the rights of the people from federal law that would strip their rights away.
    - pc86 10y ago
      1. If you use the phrase "the Constitution" without first referencing a specific one, the overwhelming majority of Americans will assume you're referring to the US Constitution. 2. Women can be Sheriffs.
moftz 10y ago
Budgetary reasons. Why would the FBI spend their own money and resources to enforce FDA regulations? That's money coming out of their budget. There would need to be in place a central federal police force that would be funded by the various agencies that require X number of hours of law enforcement per year. But this might create even greater costs due to the overhead in running this federal police force. You would need offices all over the country alongside the current federal agency offices like FDA, FBI, DEA, etc. It would probably be easier to have the FBI setup as a federal police force which it pretty much almost is. Agencies could send part of their budget to the FBI to essentially purchase law enforcement hours. Factor in the cost of hourly rate of officer + hourly rate of overhead for officer + usage of resources + any other expenses incurred and then bill that to the agency that requires the police work. This would help smaller agencies by reducing the costs they would have to spend on maintaining a police force of their own 24/7. The only issue would be that the FBI would need to maintain a force large enough to enforce anything the other agencies would require of it. Things like DEA work and regular FBI work would require much more man power than things like DOE work so smaller agencies might not get the representation and priority they would get by maintaining their own force.
- dwe3000 10y ago
  > Budgetary reasons. Why would the FBI spend their own money and resources to enforce FDA regulations? That's money coming out of their budget. Businesses have been charging internal departments budgetary expenses for ages. That's what an overhead department - often IT, for example - does. Thinking of these as separate agencies is just an easy way to hide that they are all federal government agencies. Even working with charging state agencies wouldn't be that difficult to work out.

mbrookes 10y ago

> campus police This one I've always found bizarre. What is it about American university students in particular that requires there to be an on-site police force?

gerbal 10y ago
Most large American Universities are not part of the surrounding town or city. They are in effect their own municipalities.
- mbrookes 10y ago
  Ah, interesting - thank you! So it's the civic structure rather than a particularly lawless student base. :) Not so bizarre then - just different!
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Is there anywhere else that has the US model? I worked on a UK university campus for a few years and I don't think they had any security guards (certainly I never met any and I was in and out of buildings at all hours) let alone armed police!
    - pjc50 10y ago
      The really ancient ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Constabulary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Constabul... (I think that may be the last left).
    - aninhumer 10y ago
      I think UK universities mostly include limited security in their general pastoral support, rather than having dedicated security guards. So there's someone who can e.g. ask a stranger loitering on campus at night what they're doing, but anything serious will be handled by the police.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- mbreese 10y ago
  Some of the literally are their own municipalities. Two examples: The University of Notre Dame is in Notre Dame, Indiana, which happens to be surrounded by South Bend, Indiana. Same with Stanford... which is technically in Stanford, California.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    Even more literally, the city of College Station, Texas, is a city built around the main campus of Texas A&M. Thus the name.
janvidar 10y ago
I've always found this bizarre too, but then all alcohol is prohibited until 21 quite unlike other places. I guess someone has to enforce that, too ?
- afarrell 10y ago
  That is not generally enforced at universities.
  - noer 10y ago
    I think it depends on some combination the jurisdiction, university & location. It's absolutely enforced where alcohol & alcohol related crime is a problem.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  And there is an ABC store right next to the campus that specialises in cheap vodka.
afarrell 10y ago
For universities in metropolitan areas, the advantage is in having police that are specialised to handling issues more common to universities (drinking/drug use), implementing policies like a good samaritan policy around drug overdose reporting, being a closer part of the community, and taking part in planning exercises for on-campus emergencies. Source: When I studied at MIT, I volunteered with two different organisations that liaised with the police. I observed an active shooter tabletop roleplaying exercise. (no, it did not involve dice)
- mcguire 10y ago
  This is also the reason the National Park Service has its own law enforcement rangers, various state fish and game organizations have game wardens, and likely the EPA had its own special agents, among others. Not only are the issues specialized, the laws are as well.
ptaipale 10y ago
Jurisdiction issues in America were already pointed out, but I'd also remind that in the Old World, universities and their campuses traditionally enjoyed certain kinds of autonomy. This could even extend to immunity from prosecution by regular authorities, with the university as its own jurisdiction handling at least some offences autonomically. This is, I believe, now completely a thing of the past almost everywhere, but America being rather conservative, there could be echoes of it around.
- daurnimator 10y ago
  The University of Melbourne in Australia has a similar carry over. The majority of the university is on crown land, in an arrangement where most state laws do not apply (however federal law does). The state police have a standing invitation to go on campus if it's in reply to a "violent crime", but otherwise should never be there. However... the university does not have it's own police force: they just have clueless Wilson's Security personnel like any normal industrial site.
  - ajdlinux 10y ago
    I've heard things along the lines of "most state laws do not apply (however federal law does)" before, but never with a citation. Pretty sure that's just urban legend.
    - daurnimator 10y ago
      > Pretty sure that's just urban legend. It might be. I just had a look around for a citation and didn't find much. However I do recall a law student finding something in the university by-laws about it (however that shouldn't overrule state law... unless it does). I found http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UWSLawRw/2002/3.html http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UWSLawRw/2002/3.html but the University of Melbourne seems to be victorian crown land (since at least 2000 http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubPDocs_Arch.nsf/5da7442d8f61e92bca256de50013d008/DF2B7C19F7A5560BCA2570D90001FC92/$FILE/541145bi1.pdf http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubP...) rather than commonwealth crown land. I don't know enough about property and title in Victoria to make a call here.
julian_t 10y ago
The one that caused me to do a double take was the "postal police"... the postal service, at least in New York, appears to have its own police force.
- briffle 10y ago
  Railroad police are even more interesting. Private security given full arrest powers.
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    That depends on the state and what kind of railroad police you're talking about. In California they are full sworn officers who have general police powers (i.e., they're not limited to operating on railroad property). In other states it's different. Amtrak police are federal agents with nationwide jurisdiction. That makes some degree of sense when you realize that pursuit might easily cover several states. The crime itself might even cover several states -- imagine someone burglarizing sleeping compartments on the train. When he hits the first one the train is in Minnesota, but by the time he finishes, the train is in Wisconsin. Having federal jurisdiction avoids pissing contests about which state has authority. The situation is similar for the sky marshals on planes.
- Inconel 10y ago
  The USPS is a federal agency so it's not limited to NY, USPS police are federal agents. I believe they traditionally have dealt with a lot of mail fraud and child pornography investigations.
- paulmd 10y ago
  Another fun one, the Supreme Court has their own police force with 145 members. There are quite a few of these micro-police forces in the US system.
wil421 10y ago
Don't forget the Boston bombers ran to MIT and killed a security guard. While this is an extreme case some University are in urban environments. Take GaTech for example, every year someone is robbed or even murdered walking near campus. The campus police usually have to fend off vagrants or drug addicts from nearby.
- chrishacken 10y ago
  I used to go to Temple in Philadelphia and the amount of crime that took place on or near campus definitely warranted its own police department. North Philadelphia isn't the safest place to begin with, but 28,000+ college students fresh out of the nest make easy targets for criminals. There's likely around a dozen "incidents" almost daily. Of the 2 or 3 years I was there, two students were murdered, another committed suicide in the middle of campus, and a few others were shot and survived. The campus police department does its best to make a safe zone around campus with either uniformed officers and/or safety officers on the corners every few blocks outside of campus.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > Of the 2 or 3 years I was there, [...] another committed suicide in the middle of campus, Why does this health problem require police attendance?
    - chrishacken 10y ago
      Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that particular incident; the rest of my points still warrant a higher police presence.
    - wil421 10y ago
      Police are sometimes different from Campus security. Who else is the front line for mental health problems? A medical doctor or psychiatrist isn't going to be on standby rushing waiting for a student to become sucicidal. Campus faculty aren't likely to be trained on this stuff.
msimpson 10y ago
"Campus policing originated with the establishment of the Yale Campus Police Department in 1894. Yale, located in New Haven, Connecticut, began an agreement with the New Haven Police Department to have two of their officers assigned exclusively to the campus as a means to deter crime on campus, and to better student-police relations. Shortly thereafter these two officers were hired by Yale to keep law and order on the campus. It was not until 73 years later that most college and university security departments became police departments. With the protest of the Vietnam War, the Kent State incident, and crime increasing on college campuses all over America, most of the 50 states did not pass laws authorizing colleges to have their own campus police department until the late 1960's." Davis, R. (1967). History Of Campus Policing. Retrieved February 2, 2017, from http://www.oocities.org/odupd/ http://www.oocities.org/odupd/
tw04 10y ago
In general, it's not about the students, it's about the surrounding public. I know at my university there were several assaults over the 4 years I attended. Every last one was caused by someone from the outside coming onto campus to commit a crime. If, for instance, sexual assault is your thing - a college campus is a pretty good place to find lots of young women who are potentially vulnerable (walking home alone/potentially inebriated). Furthermore, if you're in that approximate age range, it's pretty easy to get lost in the crowd.
washadjeffmad 10y ago
A university campus is like a microcity with thousands of people, its own economy separate from the surrounding area, facilities, and rules. Instead of sending off reports and requests to city police (and how many students, staff, and faculty are locals, again?), they can have a single, centralised, limited office to handle public safety and policing. Put another way, it's so everything that happens within the university doesn't eat into municipal or county time and resources, but they can still interoperate with some parity. Look into the Clery Act for more.

knz 10y ago

> In the rest of the world, police is much more centralised... New Zealand (admittedly a small country) The US is broken into "normal" country size blocks - i.e. States. Kiwis have a lot more faith in centralized government though. Many aspects of American society have significant duplication due to a perceived loss in autonomy if resources are consolidated. For example, I live in a metro area of 4 million people that has over 100 local government entities (each suburb has it's own council etc), most with their own emergency services, public works departments, and own set of regulations. It's insane. > The police don't have fancy equipment, if they need an APC, or helicopters They have one helicopter (http://www.police.govt.nz/contact-us/station/air-support-unit http://www.police.govt.nz/contact-us/station/air-support-uni...), it used to be called the "Eagle" when I was a kid growing up in Auckland.

67726e 10y ago
This accounts for our federal / state / local breakdown, but what is a legitimate question is why does the FDA or IRS need a law enforcement division? Why can't there be a federal law enforcement division that works on behalf of federal agencies with a need?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Why can't there be a federal law enforcement division that works on behalf of federal agencies with a need? Because a substantial portion of the work of many agencies involves specialized law enforcement in the domain of responsibility, and it's organizationally inefficient for that to invo love coordinating units where the lowest common level of management is the President of the United States.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Exactly - the IRS and the DEA and the ATF have very different law enforcement objectives and domains but all have legitimate law enforcement requirements. The spotty history of the FBI notwithstanding, it makes more sense to have smaller decentralized law enforcement units specialized in their given area than to have one large agency made up of the same specialized groups.

X86BSD 10y ago

All of those police forces are unrecognized by the Constitution except the Sheriff

pc86 10y ago
Where are sheriffs mentions in the Constitution?
- pdabbadabba 10y ago
  GP is not completely wrong. Many state constitutions do indeed create the office of Sheriff. The federal one does not, of course, because there is no federal sheriff.
- X86BSD 10y ago
  Each state Constitution will have him listed. He is an officer of the state but sworn to uphold and defend both the state Constitution and the federal Constitution. Answerable only to the people of his county. His job is to protect the law AND the rights of the people from federal law that would strip their rights away.
  - pc86 10y ago
    1. If you use the phrase "the Constitution" without first referencing a specific one, the overwhelming majority of Americans will assume you're referring to the US Constitution. 2. Women can be Sheriffs.

moftz 10y ago

Budgetary reasons. Why would the FBI spend their own money and resources to enforce FDA regulations? That's money coming out of their budget. There would need to be in place a central federal police force that would be funded by the various agencies that require X number of hours of law enforcement per year. But this might create even greater costs due to the overhead in running this federal police force. You would need offices all over the country alongside the current federal agency offices like FDA, FBI, DEA, etc. It would probably be easier to have the FBI setup as a federal police force which it pretty much almost is. Agencies could send part of their budget to the FBI to essentially purchase law enforcement hours. Factor in the cost of hourly rate of officer + hourly rate of overhead for officer + usage of resources + any other expenses incurred and then bill that to the agency that requires the police work. This would help smaller agencies by reducing the costs they would have to spend on maintaining a police force of their own 24/7. The only issue would be that the FBI would need to maintain a force large enough to enforce anything the other agencies would require of it. Things like DEA work and regular FBI work would require much more man power than things like DOE work so smaller agencies might not get the representation and priority they would get by maintaining their own force.

dwe3000 10y ago
> Budgetary reasons. Why would the FBI spend their own money and resources to enforce FDA regulations? That's money coming out of their budget. Businesses have been charging internal departments budgetary expenses for ages. That's what an overhead department - often IT, for example - does. Thinking of these as separate agencies is just an easy way to hide that they are all federal government agencies. Even working with charging state agencies wouldn't be that difficult to work out.