12 ms·

Non-military federal agencies’ purchases of guns, ammunition, etc (2016)

122 points by warsaw 10y ago

kodfodrasz 10y ago
I would happily discuss the topic - if I could access the article :(
- pmontra 10y ago
  Click web above, then open in private tab.
- andyjohnson0 10y ago
  Link works ok for me. Chrome 55.0.2883 on Windows.
- detaro 10y ago
  Strange, works here (and I don't think it is supposed to be paywalled or something). Archive.org has a copy, does that work for you? https://web.archive.org/web/20170201035533/https://www.openthebooks.com/assets/1/7/Oversight_TheMilitarizationOfAmerica_06102016.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170201035533/https://www.opent...
  - kodfodrasz 10y ago
    it didn't work for me on phone, the popup close button was off-screen, and site was not properly zoomable. On PC i could read the article.
yetihehe 10y ago
Hmm, FDA stockpiling weapons... It looks like it fits actions of food corporations in "Daemon" and "Freedom" by Daniel Suarez.
gerbal 10y ago
Most of these agencies have some statutory responsibility to enforce law and investigate crimes under their purview. This includes enforcing court orders and arresting suspects in unknown and potentially dangerous situations. The report actually explains these things all the while sneering at the fact that these agencies need to employ investigative and enforcement personnel as part of their core mission. Many of these agencies maintain large facilities to serve their core purposes and have to provide security for their facilities. Little in this report is anywhere as alarming as the reports authors would like to make it out to be. OpenTheBooks.com seems to take the view that all government spending is wasteful, and by describing it out of context seeks to present it as abuse. For instance they present research grants to Ivy League schools as government subsidy of those schools [1] and The US Government employing a lot of lawyers as somehow suspect [2]. [1] http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_oversight_report_%E2%80%93_the_federal_subsidy_of_the_ivy_league_preliminary_findings/ http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_oversight_report_%E... [2] http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_snapshot_oversight_report_%E2%80%93_lawyered_up/ http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_snapshot_oversight_...
- Inconel 10y ago
  Regarding their contention that research grants to Ivy League schools are subsidies, aren't they exactly that? Don't get me wrong, those are definitely the kind of subsidies I think the government should be providing, but what is wrong with labeling them as such?
- wallace_f 10y ago
  >Most of these agencies have some statutory responsibility to enforce law and investigate crimes under their purview. The report states spending jumped 106% from 55 million to 106 million over the period. I would like to know what benefit was garnered from doubling spending on arming these agencies with deadly weapons (and paintball guns, apparently).
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > paintball guns, Paintball guns are a less lethal weapon used by both border control agents and by animal control agencies. 2011: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/border-patrol-replaces-guns-with-nlaim-paint-markers/ http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/border-patrol-re... http://www.nelsonpaintball.com/animal-control/ http://www.nelsonpaintball.com/animal-control/ I'm not sure how many paintball guns you get for $300,000. The benefit is hopefully fewer incidents like this where US border agents shot across the border, killing a Mexican child in Mexico. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/12/us-border-patrol-agent-shoots-kills-mexican-teen-insider-says.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/12/us-border-patrol-age... (Throwing rocks at people is obviously illegal and needs to be dealt with. I struggle to understand why extra judicial killing is an appropriate punishment for this crime.)
jlarocco 10y ago
Sounded suspicious until I saw the list on page 5. The Department of State, FBI, prison system, DEA, secret service, ICE, customs/border patrol, etc. are all on the top of the list, and I'd expect them to spend a lot of money on guns, ammo, and "military-style equipment". A few of them are higher than I'd expect, but most of them seem reasonable. Any agency that uses armed security guards is going to spend some amount of money on guns, ammo, training, etc.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  >The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service spent $4.77 million purchasing shotguns, .308 caliber rifles, night vision goggles, propane cannons, liquid explosives, pyro supplies, buckshot, LP gas cannons, drones, remote controlled helicopters, thermal cameras, military waterproof thermal infrared scopes, and more.
  - johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
    Is that so strange?
  - gerbal 10y ago
    Take a look at that agencies responsibilities[1]. There's a lot there that could necessitate that sort of materiel. Including monitoring wildlife, enforcing bans in trade of various species, and enforcing animal welfare. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_and_Plant_Health_Inspection_Service#Duties_and_responsibilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_and_Plant_Health_Inspec...
  - toomanybeersies 10y ago
    In their defence, it would appear on first glance at the sample purchases that a lot of the weapons purchased are hunting rifles and shotguns, useful for pest destruction/culling and putting down sick animals. LP gas cannons are used for scaring birds and making them take flight, night vision equipment is very useful for culling animals, same goes for thermal cameras/scopes.
  - mason240 10y ago
wallace_f 10y ago
I don't have the energy to get angry about this stuff anymore. I need to pay my bills and put food on the table, which requires me to work.
- dmichulke 10y ago
  > which requires me to work. ...which will feed the government via taxes to sustain the lavish spending you object to. Just pointing out that you'd have more time to read articles on misspending if your government wouldn't misspend so much money.
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    I know. Sad set of circumstances. I feel humanity will always be riddled with the 'lowest common denominator' problem. I don't know if that's the best name for it, maybe there's another. It's the reason for this CGP Grey video(1). Current events at the moment really bother me. I don't know if I'm being cynical or if things are really as bad as they seem. 1-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
toomanybeersies 10y ago
I feel like this is due to a peculiarity of how law enforcement works in the USA. Every department and authority has their own law enforcement branch. You've got county sheriffs, state police, highway patrol, campus police, transport police etc. on a local authority level. Then on a federal level, as the paper points out, everyone from the IRS to the Department of Education have their own law enforcement officers. In the rest of the world, police is much more centralised. Here in New Zealand (admittedly a small country), the Police are the only agency with general powers of arrest, and the only department outside the military with firearms. The police don't have fancy equipment, if they need an APC, or helicopters or whatever (the police do have one), they'll borrow it from the Defence Force. It's not like they need to pay for and maintain their own stock to use once in a blue moon. If an agency like the IRD (our tax department) need to raid or arrest someone, they'll get the police to do it. I don't fully understand why the USA isn't like this. I understand why there's federal and local law enforcement, but if the FDA needs to raid and arrest people, why don't they second some FBI agents when they're needed?
- mbrookes 10y ago
  > campus police This one I've always found bizarre. What is it about American university students in particular that requires there to be an on-site police force?
  - gerbal 10y ago
    Most large American Universities are not part of the surrounding town or city. They are in effect their own municipalities.
    - mbrookes 10y ago
      Ah, interesting - thank you! So it's the civic structure rather than a particularly lawless student base. :) Not so bizarre then - just different!
      - arethuza 10y ago
tomohawk 10y ago
Ingenious work around to the Posse Comitatus Act. Turn the police into the military! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act The rampant expansion and use of SWAT is disgusting.
- cryoshon 10y ago
  it's because they are scared we will try to overthrow them they are justified in that fear these days
beedogs 10y ago
With every passing day, my decision to leave the United States looks more and more like a permanent one.
- pc86 10y ago
  Where did you go? I'm very interested in this, but really where else do you have: - Nearly unrestricted freedom of speech - For the time being, no constant surveillance state - Comparatively low taxes for the services provided
  - beedogs 10y ago
    America has none of those things, for what it's worth.
    - pc86 10y ago
      > > - Nearly unrestricted freedom of speech There's very little you can say in the US that has a legal penalty associated with it. Short of inciting violence or advocating for a government official's assassination, I can say whatever stupid thing(s) I want and the only repercussions will be that people think I'm an idiot. Contrast to say, Germany, where saying something objectively wrong but still harmless like the Holocaust didn't happen will land you in prison. > > - For the time being, no constant surveillance state Compared to the UK with cameras everywhere and your every move recorded? If being tracked is a legitimate concern of yours it's possible to live largely off the grid in the US. > > - Comparatively low taxes for the services provided I'll concede some places have lower taxes but as a software developer I can't earn nearly what I can earn in the US (even in the middle of nowhere rural US where I am now) anywhere else. Any move, even with a lower marginal/effective tax rate, will leave me with less money in my pocket.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        > Contrast to say, Germany, where saying something objectively wrong but still harmless like the Holocaust didn't happen will land you in prison. Is this a problem? > I'll concede some places have lower taxes I believe this won't help you, as you will have to pay the US rate at a minimum. It's hard to to say something sarcastic about that rule, because maybe other countries do it too?
dandare 10y ago
Also very interesting: ARtworks purchased by Veterans Affairs - http://www.openthebooks.com/the_vas_luxury_art_obsession/ http://www.openthebooks.com/the_vas_luxury_art_obsession/
huffmsa 10y ago
>"2005 to present the US Geological Survey agency spent $1,333,202.85 on guns, ammo and other military style equipment." Citizens, pick up that rock.
angry_octet 10y ago
I read the entire report and I find nothing particular exceptional about it, except the HHS shouldn't be involved in DOD purchases and everything seems gold plated. And no I'm not a gun owner or NRA member. There has been an increase, but most of it is essentially due to post 911 mindset that every facility needs armed guards. In other countries that would just be unarmed (possibly contracted) guards, who ring the police if there are any problems. But then, other countries have fewer guns. Also, the fragmentation of policing in the States almost requires having an agency force, because of jurisdiction and funding wars.
yunolisten 10y ago
> 6000: RAILROAD RETIREMENT BOARD $40,465.91 That's one way to 'retire' people. Take old Yeller out back...
vanattab 10y ago
I thought the US Coast Guard was considered Military? If you want to have your mind blown by the shear number of federal law enforcement agencies check out the Wikipedia list below. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_t...
- jdavis703 10y ago
  They're part of Homeland Security now.
joyeuse6701 10y ago
If you're familiar with the use and types of firearms, this budget doesn't seem so odd. The alarmist nature of the paper gives the authors away. If they divided the cost per officer or the assets or notional value they presumably are protecting, it'd look like a fair budget!
- throwaway2016a 10y ago
  I am reasonable familiar (though admittedly not an expert) with the types and use of the items outlined here and I can't come to the same conclusion. Perhaps I am missing something. I don't want you to scrutinize the entire PDF but can you pick out one example and dive into the calculations?
  - mcguire 10y ago
    "What guns, ammunition and military-style equipment did the IRS purchase? FY2006-FY2014" "...Fire resistant safes..."
devillius 10y ago
I think the title is a little misleading. The report states that the findings are from 2006-2014 and that is when the rapid militarization of police forces with DHS funds was widely reported. I fear that HN attributes all these to the current political atmosphere and how the foundation laid by the previous administration.
mcguire 10y ago
I'm as big an opponent of the militarization of police in the US as anyone, but I'm not sure consolidating police powers into one organization is going to immi the situation.
mcguire 10y ago
Looking at the Customs and Border Protection case, did the CBP change standard-issued handguns during the period? The P2000, which they bought a bunch of, was introduced in 2001, and changing the standard issue is going to involve buying a lot of new guns. Likewise, did ICE switch from some other caliber to .40S&W?
- pc86 10y ago
  I seem to remember an article some time ago about the feds standardizing handgun calibers to .40 to try to lower the unit cost of ammunition.

122 points by warsaw 10y ago

kodfodrasz 10y ago

I would happily discuss the topic - if I could access the article :(

pmontra 10y ago
Click web above, then open in private tab.
andyjohnson0 10y ago
Link works ok for me. Chrome 55.0.2883 on Windows.
detaro 10y ago
Strange, works here (and I don't think it is supposed to be paywalled or something). Archive.org has a copy, does that work for you? https://web.archive.org/web/20170201035533/https://www.openthebooks.com/assets/1/7/Oversight_TheMilitarizationOfAmerica_06102016.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170201035533/https://www.opent...
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  it didn't work for me on phone, the popup close button was off-screen, and site was not properly zoomable. On PC i could read the article.

yetihehe 10y ago

Hmm, FDA stockpiling weapons... It looks like it fits actions of food corporations in "Daemon" and "Freedom" by Daniel Suarez.

gerbal 10y ago

Most of these agencies have some statutory responsibility to enforce law and investigate crimes under their purview. This includes enforcing court orders and arresting suspects in unknown and potentially dangerous situations. The report actually explains these things all the while sneering at the fact that these agencies need to employ investigative and enforcement personnel as part of their core mission. Many of these agencies maintain large facilities to serve their core purposes and have to provide security for their facilities. Little in this report is anywhere as alarming as the reports authors would like to make it out to be. OpenTheBooks.com seems to take the view that all government spending is wasteful, and by describing it out of context seeks to present it as abuse. For instance they present research grants to Ivy League schools as government subsidy of those schools [1] and The US Government employing a lot of lawyers as somehow suspect [2]. [1] http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_oversight_report_%E2%80%93_the_federal_subsidy_of_the_ivy_league_preliminary_findings/ http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_oversight_report_%E... [2] http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_snapshot_oversight_report_%E2%80%93_lawyered_up/ http://www.openthebooks.com/openthebooks_snapshot_oversight_...

Inconel 10y ago
Regarding their contention that research grants to Ivy League schools are subsidies, aren't they exactly that? Don't get me wrong, those are definitely the kind of subsidies I think the government should be providing, but what is wrong with labeling them as such?
wallace_f 10y ago
>Most of these agencies have some statutory responsibility to enforce law and investigate crimes under their purview. The report states spending jumped 106% from 55 million to 106 million over the period. I would like to know what benefit was garnered from doubling spending on arming these agencies with deadly weapons (and paintball guns, apparently).
- DanBC 10y ago
  > paintball guns, Paintball guns are a less lethal weapon used by both border control agents and by animal control agencies. 2011: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/border-patrol-replaces-guns-with-nlaim-paint-markers/ http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/border-patrol-re... http://www.nelsonpaintball.com/animal-control/ http://www.nelsonpaintball.com/animal-control/ I'm not sure how many paintball guns you get for $300,000. The benefit is hopefully fewer incidents like this where US border agents shot across the border, killing a Mexican child in Mexico. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/12/us-border-patrol-agent-shoots-kills-mexican-teen-insider-says.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/12/us-border-patrol-age... (Throwing rocks at people is obviously illegal and needs to be dealt with. I struggle to understand why extra judicial killing is an appropriate punishment for this crime.)

jlarocco 10y ago

Sounded suspicious until I saw the list on page 5. The Department of State, FBI, prison system, DEA, secret service, ICE, customs/border patrol, etc. are all on the top of the list, and I'd expect them to spend a lot of money on guns, ammo, and "military-style equipment". A few of them are higher than I'd expect, but most of them seem reasonable. Any agency that uses armed security guards is going to spend some amount of money on guns, ammo, training, etc.

wallace_f 10y ago
>The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service spent $4.77 million purchasing shotguns, .308 caliber rifles, night vision goggles, propane cannons, liquid explosives, pyro supplies, buckshot, LP gas cannons, drones, remote controlled helicopters, thermal cameras, military waterproof thermal infrared scopes, and more.
- johnnyhillbilly 10y ago
  Is that so strange?
- gerbal 10y ago
  Take a look at that agencies responsibilities[1]. There's a lot there that could necessitate that sort of materiel. Including monitoring wildlife, enforcing bans in trade of various species, and enforcing animal welfare. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_and_Plant_Health_Inspection_Service#Duties_and_responsibilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_and_Plant_Health_Inspec...
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  In their defence, it would appear on first glance at the sample purchases that a lot of the weapons purchased are hunting rifles and shotguns, useful for pest destruction/culling and putting down sick animals. LP gas cannons are used for scaring birds and making them take flight, night vision equipment is very useful for culling animals, same goes for thermal cameras/scopes.
- mason240 10y ago

wallace_f 10y ago

I don't have the energy to get angry about this stuff anymore. I need to pay my bills and put food on the table, which requires me to work.

dmichulke 10y ago
> which requires me to work. ...which will feed the government via taxes to sustain the lavish spending you object to. Just pointing out that you'd have more time to read articles on misspending if your government wouldn't misspend so much money.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  I know. Sad set of circumstances. I feel humanity will always be riddled with the 'lowest common denominator' problem. I don't know if that's the best name for it, maybe there's another. It's the reason for this CGP Grey video(1). Current events at the moment really bother me. I don't know if I'm being cynical or if things are really as bad as they seem. 1-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

toomanybeersies 10y ago

I feel like this is due to a peculiarity of how law enforcement works in the USA. Every department and authority has their own law enforcement branch. You've got county sheriffs, state police, highway patrol, campus police, transport police etc. on a local authority level. Then on a federal level, as the paper points out, everyone from the IRS to the Department of Education have their own law enforcement officers. In the rest of the world, police is much more centralised. Here in New Zealand (admittedly a small country), the Police are the only agency with general powers of arrest, and the only department outside the military with firearms. The police don't have fancy equipment, if they need an APC, or helicopters or whatever (the police do have one), they'll borrow it from the Defence Force. It's not like they need to pay for and maintain their own stock to use once in a blue moon. If an agency like the IRD (our tax department) need to raid or arrest someone, they'll get the police to do it. I don't fully understand why the USA isn't like this. I understand why there's federal and local law enforcement, but if the FDA needs to raid and arrest people, why don't they second some FBI agents when they're needed?

mbrookes 10y ago
> campus police This one I've always found bizarre. What is it about American university students in particular that requires there to be an on-site police force?
- gerbal 10y ago
  Most large American Universities are not part of the surrounding town or city. They are in effect their own municipalities.
  - mbrookes 10y ago
    Ah, interesting - thank you! So it's the civic structure rather than a particularly lawless student base. :) Not so bizarre then - just different!
    - arethuza 10y ago

tomohawk 10y ago

Ingenious work around to the Posse Comitatus Act. Turn the police into the military! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act The rampant expansion and use of SWAT is disgusting.

cryoshon 10y ago
it's because they are scared we will try to overthrow them they are justified in that fear these days

beedogs 10y ago

With every passing day, my decision to leave the United States looks more and more like a permanent one.

pc86 10y ago
Where did you go? I'm very interested in this, but really where else do you have: - Nearly unrestricted freedom of speech - For the time being, no constant surveillance state - Comparatively low taxes for the services provided
- beedogs 10y ago
  America has none of those things, for what it's worth.
  - pc86 10y ago
    > > - Nearly unrestricted freedom of speech There's very little you can say in the US that has a legal penalty associated with it. Short of inciting violence or advocating for a government official's assassination, I can say whatever stupid thing(s) I want and the only repercussions will be that people think I'm an idiot. Contrast to say, Germany, where saying something objectively wrong but still harmless like the Holocaust didn't happen will land you in prison. > > - For the time being, no constant surveillance state Compared to the UK with cameras everywhere and your every move recorded? If being tracked is a legitimate concern of yours it's possible to live largely off the grid in the US. > > - Comparatively low taxes for the services provided I'll concede some places have lower taxes but as a software developer I can't earn nearly what I can earn in the US (even in the middle of nowhere rural US where I am now) anywhere else. Any move, even with a lower marginal/effective tax rate, will leave me with less money in my pocket.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      > Contrast to say, Germany, where saying something objectively wrong but still harmless like the Holocaust didn't happen will land you in prison. Is this a problem? > I'll concede some places have lower taxes I believe this won't help you, as you will have to pay the US rate at a minimum. It's hard to to say something sarcastic about that rule, because maybe other countries do it too?

dandare 10y ago

Also very interesting: ARtworks purchased by Veterans Affairs - http://www.openthebooks.com/the_vas_luxury_art_obsession/ http://www.openthebooks.com/the_vas_luxury_art_obsession/

huffmsa 10y ago

>"2005 to present the US Geological Survey agency spent $1,333,202.85 on guns, ammo and other military style equipment." Citizens, pick up that rock.

angry_octet 10y ago

I read the entire report and I find nothing particular exceptional about it, except the HHS shouldn't be involved in DOD purchases and everything seems gold plated. And no I'm not a gun owner or NRA member. There has been an increase, but most of it is essentially due to post 911 mindset that every facility needs armed guards. In other countries that would just be unarmed (possibly contracted) guards, who ring the police if there are any problems. But then, other countries have fewer guns. Also, the fragmentation of policing in the States almost requires having an agency force, because of jurisdiction and funding wars.

yunolisten 10y ago

> 6000: RAILROAD RETIREMENT BOARD $40,465.91 That's one way to 'retire' people. Take old Yeller out back...

vanattab 10y ago

I thought the US Coast Guard was considered Military? If you want to have your mind blown by the shear number of federal law enforcement agencies check out the Wikipedia list below. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_t...

jdavis703 10y ago
They're part of Homeland Security now.

joyeuse6701 10y ago

If you're familiar with the use and types of firearms, this budget doesn't seem so odd. The alarmist nature of the paper gives the authors away. If they divided the cost per officer or the assets or notional value they presumably are protecting, it'd look like a fair budget!

throwaway2016a 10y ago
I am reasonable familiar (though admittedly not an expert) with the types and use of the items outlined here and I can't come to the same conclusion. Perhaps I am missing something. I don't want you to scrutinize the entire PDF but can you pick out one example and dive into the calculations?
- mcguire 10y ago
  "What guns, ammunition and military-style equipment did the IRS purchase? FY2006-FY2014" "...Fire resistant safes..."

devillius 10y ago

I think the title is a little misleading. The report states that the findings are from 2006-2014 and that is when the rapid militarization of police forces with DHS funds was widely reported. I fear that HN attributes all these to the current political atmosphere and how the foundation laid by the previous administration.

mcguire 10y ago

I'm as big an opponent of the militarization of police in the US as anyone, but I'm not sure consolidating police powers into one organization is going to immi the situation.

mcguire 10y ago

Looking at the Customs and Border Protection case, did the CBP change standard-issued handguns during the period? The P2000, which they bought a bunch of, was introduced in 2001, and changing the standard issue is going to involve buying a lot of new guns. Likewise, did ICE switch from some other caliber to .40S&W?

pc86 10y ago
I seem to remember an article some time ago about the feds standardizing handgun calibers to .40 to try to lower the unit cost of ammunition.