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> We have purposely designed our cities to maximize vehicle throughput and require car ownership This is just one specific example of the broader phenomenon, w

> We have purposely designed our cities to maximize vehicle throughput and require car ownership This is just one specific example of the broader phenomenon, which is corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities, so that they may resell those things to us as products. Requiring cars to move around is just the surface. We go to coffee shops and restaurants to see our friends. We purchase MP3s or concert tickets to hear music. We order food instead of cooking it let alone growing it. And of course this is all a luxury to some: many of us would be happy to never have to walk significant distance, cook, or listen to a local musician ever again. But it's in the corporations best interest that children aren't really given a choice. And that serves nation states' best interest, which is to grow the GDP. But the result is a world of people who, without a credit card, are babies unable to care for themselves. Short of someone putting food in our mouths and maintaining the grounds around us, we would be lost. Luckily we have the cash to afford these things. And those who fall through the cracks of being able to hold a job are eaten up. All hail GDP. All hail capital. Thank you Gates, Koch, Slim, Walton, for providing us with internet connectivity, petrol, and toilet paper this day.

Cerium 10y ago
Just a few days ago I was walking into Costco to buy a loaf of bread. Outside at the food court was an old Chinese man with what looked like a 4 year old grandson. The old man was playing a bamboo flute, very beautifully, while his grandson ate some food. The whole area was filled with some beautiful music which transported me back to time I have spent in China. I wish listening to live music was more common again.
clarkmoody 10y ago
> corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities Please. It's in a corporation's best interest to give the customer exactly what he wants. We still have "our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities," but we also have the option of a corporation providing for our every whim.
- renlo 10y ago
  It's in the corporation's best interest to ensure a steady income flow. That's about it. Corporations only care about 'what the customer wants' insofar as how much it affects a steady income flow. I think you have misinterpreted what the parent comment was saying. He wasn't saying there are limited options, just that we choose to have corporations take care of things for us, and now that we have chosen this we are more dependent on them. He wasn't stating that you could not take care of yourself if you want to. Just that it's easier to let the corporation do it for you.
  - rimantas 10y ago
    No, he sounds like evil coroporations force us to meet friends in coffeshops, etc. When in reality we just don't want to tidy up our houses before inviting friends over, do the dishes, etc. And it also gives us an opportunity to leave the house :)
- JammyDodger 10y ago
  Then why do corporations spend billions of dollars each year on advertising? Surely it's to convince you to buy something that may not be exactly what you want. A corporation's main goal is to drive up profits and if it's more convenient for them to manipulate a populace into acting a certain way than it is to give the populace exactly what they want then that's what they'll do. There is probably not a conspiracy from corporations or government to undermine people's freedom and what not but it doesn't mean that it isn't the end result.
  - kqr 10y ago
    Advertising is 99% about making you aware that theproduct exists and fulfills the needs you already have, and at most 1% about making you want theproduct.
    - JammyDodger 10y ago
      How is that true? What about all the various gadgets that exist that nobody wanted until they were advertised to them? If you don't know about something then how can it possibly be exactly what you want? You wouldn't want it if you didn't know it existed. Or how about brands like Coca-Cola, everyone knows they exist but they keep advertising, surely it's to make you want it!
fusiongyro 10y ago
I love it. The top comment is about how this is caused by government, the third comment is about how this is caused by corporations. Obviously some force greater than ordinary humans must be at fault for this!
- Kluny 10y ago
  Governments and corporations are both made up of people. The leeches win when good people can't be bothered to show up and do the work.
- couchand 10y ago
  I'd like to mildly challenge your accounting. I believe when you say "the third comment" you're referring to the top comment responding to the top comment responding to the top comment. Recognizing the threaded nature of the comments here makes this fact not at all surprising.
jpatokal 10y ago
There is no evil corporation stopping you from dropping out of the rat race and moving to a farm to live life off the grid. What's stopping you from doing this and living the life you appear to desire? There is also no evil corporation ordering people to give up subsistence farming and move to cities. Why do people, all around the world, still do it?
- JammyDodger 10y ago
  Probably financial reasons due to an increased of cost living.
  - vkou 10y ago
    The cost of living a subsistence lifestyle is very low. Land in the middle of nowhere is cheap, and property taxes are almost non-existant, you don't need to pay 25% of the turnips you grow to the state as an income tax, and gasoline is very cheap in the US. There's that whole big-corporation medical care business, but if you're willing to forego it, the dream can be yours - for much less then the cost of a small suburban home.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > The cost of living a subsistence lifestyle is very low. As with Linux, this is only true if your time has no value.
      - mlonkibjuyhv 10y ago
        Yes, you have to set that to zero or infinity, depending on whether you're a half full or empty kind of guy.
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      >Land in the middle of nowhere is cheap, and property taxes are almost non-existant Housing is not cheap, no matter where you go in the US. Sure, the land it sits on may be cheaper in some places, but the cost of building materials is the same everywhere, and houses have to be built to code, and old houses that aren't maintained well enough get condemned so you're not allowed to live in them. Of course, you can always just get an old trailer home or something. >and gasoline is very cheap in the US. Yes, and distances are far when you're talking about living in "the middle of nowhere", and if you have an old vehicle, it's probably going to have terribly fuel economy, so you're still looking at a significant fuel bill just to get to the grocery store. No, you're not going to succeed in getting yourself a proper diet with your home garden. And you still need some kind of income to buy that land and whatever structure you live in, and that gas for your car/truck. >There's that whole big-corporation medical care business, but if you're willing to forego it, That's not allowed unless the ACA is repealed. Of course, with a low enough income, you might qualify for Medicaid, but that really depends. I believe a lot of states won't allow you to enroll if you're an adult, saying you should just get a job.
witty_username 10y ago
Corporations don't force it on you. People voluntarily use that. Corporations provide those things because people want them.
- mverwijs 10y ago
  Advertisements target your lizard brain. That bypasses your rational thinking. It is not a fair fight and not merely "just say 'no'".
  - E6300 10y ago
    That just sounds like a way to dodge responsibility.
    - hsitz 10y ago
      I wish it were merely a way to avoid taking personal responsibility. There's much more to it than that. Read "The Psychology of Influence" along with some of the stuff by, e.g, Kahneman and/or Tversky on behavioral economics and the various cognitive biases humans have that lead them to make poor decisions. I assure you that corporations have read all of this and are taking advantage of it to part you from your money, selling you products that they make you think will increase your happiness. Another resource on this would be Robert Shiller's book "Phishing for Phools, The Economics of Manipulation and Deception". This isn't about taking personal responsibility. Even when you become fully aware of the insidious way in which our culture works, it's impossible to entirely avoid being taken advantage of by marketing and advertising. We humans are made to think in certain ways, our brains have evolved in a way that gave us cognitive biases we can't escape, even when we're aware of them. Being aware can motivate us to change the culture itself (and its laws), though, so in the future people are less affected by corporate deceit and greed. Yes, this would likely mean lower corporate profits. (Question how we're conditioned to think of lower corporate profits as a bad thing.)
      - witty_username 10y ago
        What is wrong with corporate greed? I want the best returns out of the corporations I invest in. > Question how we're conditioned to think of lower corporate profits as a bad thing. Perhaps it is my neoliberal worldview, but I think most people are like "corporate profits can go down" for <my cause>. People think that corporations are owned only by billionares. Lower corporate profits are a bad thing for shareholders. Why don't we just take poor people's money since they're so greedy for wanting money? Most of the arguments against excess wealth can be used against many first-world people including HNers.
TulliusCicero 10y ago
While car corporations were obviously behind car-oriented policies as well, the American electorate was also completely on board. It didn't have to be this way.
visarga 10y ago
> corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities, so that they may resell those things to us as products That's an interesting thought. I was thinking that probably UBI won't come to pass (politicians corruptible, corporations greedy and short sighted) thus people will have to rediscover self-reliance in order to improve their situation.
wtbob 10y ago
I really don't think it's some sort of conspiracy: it's just that it's more efficient for someone to grow all your food, someone to make all your clothes, someone to purify all your water, someone to generate all your electricity &c. while you do what you do best than it is for you to learn how to do all of those things, acquire the raw materials and spend decades trying to make a computer from some copper, oil and sand. I recall that Mao Zedong tried to get every farmer to smelt his own iron, which rather predictably led to a lot of poor-quality iron, and a food shortage. I get the appeal of self-sufficiency, I really do (one of my dreams is to grow all of my own food), but I think it's a luxury for the rich and inescapable misery for the poor. Modern capitalism has made everyone richer.
Arizhel 10y ago
>many of us would be happy to never have to walk significant distance, cook, or listen to a local musician ever again. You say that like local musicians are somehow a good thing... I'm quite sure there's none in my little area that I'd have any interest in listening to. Whether local musicians are good depends on your taste in music and the local culture where you happen to live.

Cerium 10y ago

Just a few days ago I was walking into Costco to buy a loaf of bread. Outside at the food court was an old Chinese man with what looked like a 4 year old grandson. The old man was playing a bamboo flute, very beautifully, while his grandson ate some food. The whole area was filled with some beautiful music which transported me back to time I have spent in China. I wish listening to live music was more common again.

clarkmoody 10y ago

> corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities Please. It's in a corporation's best interest to give the customer exactly what he wants. We still have "our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities," but we also have the option of a corporation providing for our every whim.

renlo 10y ago
It's in the corporation's best interest to ensure a steady income flow. That's about it. Corporations only care about 'what the customer wants' insofar as how much it affects a steady income flow. I think you have misinterpreted what the parent comment was saying. He wasn't saying there are limited options, just that we choose to have corporations take care of things for us, and now that we have chosen this we are more dependent on them. He wasn't stating that you could not take care of yourself if you want to. Just that it's easier to let the corporation do it for you.
- rimantas 10y ago
  No, he sounds like evil coroporations force us to meet friends in coffeshops, etc. When in reality we just don't want to tidy up our houses before inviting friends over, do the dishes, etc. And it also gives us an opportunity to leave the house :)
JammyDodger 10y ago
Then why do corporations spend billions of dollars each year on advertising? Surely it's to convince you to buy something that may not be exactly what you want. A corporation's main goal is to drive up profits and if it's more convenient for them to manipulate a populace into acting a certain way than it is to give the populace exactly what they want then that's what they'll do. There is probably not a conspiracy from corporations or government to undermine people's freedom and what not but it doesn't mean that it isn't the end result.
- kqr 10y ago
  Advertising is 99% about making you aware that theproduct exists and fulfills the needs you already have, and at most 1% about making you want theproduct.
  - JammyDodger 10y ago
    How is that true? What about all the various gadgets that exist that nobody wanted until they were advertised to them? If you don't know about something then how can it possibly be exactly what you want? You wouldn't want it if you didn't know it existed. Or how about brands like Coca-Cola, everyone knows they exist but they keep advertising, surely it's to make you want it!

fusiongyro 10y ago

I love it. The top comment is about how this is caused by government, the third comment is about how this is caused by corporations. Obviously some force greater than ordinary humans must be at fault for this!

Kluny 10y ago
Governments and corporations are both made up of people. The leeches win when good people can't be bothered to show up and do the work.
couchand 10y ago
I'd like to mildly challenge your accounting. I believe when you say "the third comment" you're referring to the top comment responding to the top comment responding to the top comment. Recognizing the threaded nature of the comments here makes this fact not at all surprising.

jpatokal 10y ago

There is no evil corporation stopping you from dropping out of the rat race and moving to a farm to live life off the grid. What's stopping you from doing this and living the life you appear to desire? There is also no evil corporation ordering people to give up subsistence farming and move to cities. Why do people, all around the world, still do it?

JammyDodger 10y ago
Probably financial reasons due to an increased of cost living.
- vkou 10y ago
  The cost of living a subsistence lifestyle is very low. Land in the middle of nowhere is cheap, and property taxes are almost non-existant, you don't need to pay 25% of the turnips you grow to the state as an income tax, and gasoline is very cheap in the US. There's that whole big-corporation medical care business, but if you're willing to forego it, the dream can be yours - for much less then the cost of a small suburban home.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > The cost of living a subsistence lifestyle is very low. As with Linux, this is only true if your time has no value.
    - mlonkibjuyhv 10y ago
      Yes, you have to set that to zero or infinity, depending on whether you're a half full or empty kind of guy.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    >Land in the middle of nowhere is cheap, and property taxes are almost non-existant Housing is not cheap, no matter where you go in the US. Sure, the land it sits on may be cheaper in some places, but the cost of building materials is the same everywhere, and houses have to be built to code, and old houses that aren't maintained well enough get condemned so you're not allowed to live in them. Of course, you can always just get an old trailer home or something. >and gasoline is very cheap in the US. Yes, and distances are far when you're talking about living in "the middle of nowhere", and if you have an old vehicle, it's probably going to have terribly fuel economy, so you're still looking at a significant fuel bill just to get to the grocery store. No, you're not going to succeed in getting yourself a proper diet with your home garden. And you still need some kind of income to buy that land and whatever structure you live in, and that gas for your car/truck. >There's that whole big-corporation medical care business, but if you're willing to forego it, That's not allowed unless the ACA is repealed. Of course, with a low enough income, you might qualify for Medicaid, but that really depends. I believe a lot of states won't allow you to enroll if you're an adult, saying you should just get a job.

witty_username 10y ago

Corporations don't force it on you. People voluntarily use that. Corporations provide those things because people want them.

mverwijs 10y ago
Advertisements target your lizard brain. That bypasses your rational thinking. It is not a fair fight and not merely "just say 'no'".
- E6300 10y ago
  That just sounds like a way to dodge responsibility.
  - hsitz 10y ago
    I wish it were merely a way to avoid taking personal responsibility. There's much more to it than that. Read "The Psychology of Influence" along with some of the stuff by, e.g, Kahneman and/or Tversky on behavioral economics and the various cognitive biases humans have that lead them to make poor decisions. I assure you that corporations have read all of this and are taking advantage of it to part you from your money, selling you products that they make you think will increase your happiness. Another resource on this would be Robert Shiller's book "Phishing for Phools, The Economics of Manipulation and Deception". This isn't about taking personal responsibility. Even when you become fully aware of the insidious way in which our culture works, it's impossible to entirely avoid being taken advantage of by marketing and advertising. We humans are made to think in certain ways, our brains have evolved in a way that gave us cognitive biases we can't escape, even when we're aware of them. Being aware can motivate us to change the culture itself (and its laws), though, so in the future people are less affected by corporate deceit and greed. Yes, this would likely mean lower corporate profits. (Question how we're conditioned to think of lower corporate profits as a bad thing.)
    - witty_username 10y ago
      What is wrong with corporate greed? I want the best returns out of the corporations I invest in. > Question how we're conditioned to think of lower corporate profits as a bad thing. Perhaps it is my neoliberal worldview, but I think most people are like "corporate profits can go down" for <my cause>. People think that corporations are owned only by billionares. Lower corporate profits are a bad thing for shareholders. Why don't we just take poor people's money since they're so greedy for wanting money? Most of the arguments against excess wealth can be used against many first-world people including HNers.

TulliusCicero 10y ago

While car corporations were obviously behind car-oriented policies as well, the American electorate was also completely on board. It didn't have to be this way.

visarga 10y ago

> corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities, so that they may resell those things to us as products That's an interesting thought. I was thinking that probably UBI won't come to pass (politicians corruptible, corporations greedy and short sighted) thus people will have to rediscover self-reliance in order to improve their situation.

wtbob 10y ago

I really don't think it's some sort of conspiracy: it's just that it's more efficient for someone to grow all your food, someone to make all your clothes, someone to purify all your water, someone to generate all your electricity &c. while you do what you do best than it is for you to learn how to do all of those things, acquire the raw materials and spend decades trying to make a computer from some copper, oil and sand. I recall that Mao Zedong tried to get every farmer to smelt his own iron, which rather predictably led to a lot of poor-quality iron, and a food shortage. I get the appeal of self-sufficiency, I really do (one of my dreams is to grow all of my own food), but I think it's a luxury for the rich and inescapable misery for the poor. Modern capitalism has made everyone richer.

Arizhel 10y ago

>many of us would be happy to never have to walk significant distance, cook, or listen to a local musician ever again. You say that like local musicians are somehow a good thing... I'm quite sure there's none in my little area that I'd have any interest in listening to. Whether local musicians are good depends on your taste in music and the local culture where you happen to live.