15 ms·

I like the principles behind its design, but not supporting scrollback and saying "that functionality should be provided by tmux or something similar" is baffli

I like the principles behind its design, but not supporting scrollback and saying "that functionality should be provided by tmux or something similar" is baffling when it's done in the name of removing bloat and complexity. Not everybody wishes to use a terminal multiplexer in all cases, either.

pmoriarty 10y ago
Different people want different features. There's no way they're going to remain minimal and please everyone. They have to choose the feature set, and if other programs can provide a feature that some users want, that seems like a feature ripe for pruning. I think they made the right choice.
- aidenn0 10y ago
  I always find tmux's scrollback to be vastly inferior to a native terminal's though. There are several reasons, but the biggest is that I'm pretty sure it's not possible to get more than a screenfull of text to my local X11 PRIMARY selection.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 10y ago
    I know that there is an option for integrating tmux's internal clipboard with X11's but I haven't bothered with them because I prefer to keep the clipboards of the various terminal apps I use separate.
    - fpqc 10y ago
      It depends ultimately on the terminal to support it though. Only Linux terminals that support it atm are xterm and (u)rxvt, and there is an out-of-tree patch for st that I made (though it was rejected for being too long (around 40 lines).
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    I just use tmux's native copy/paste mechanism, using the keyboard. Using that it's possible to get the full scrollback buffer, or any part of it.
    - aidenn0 10y ago
      And I want to paste it into a non-terminal application running locally while the tmux is on a remote host?
      - fiddlerwoaroof 10y ago
        You can always use ssh and something like xclip or pbcopy. Also, I always use mosh for ssh (when possible) so that I can recover my connection if I run into network issues. Since mosh works by synchronizing a virtual screen, I don't get scrollback at all without tmux or the like.
        jacobush 10y ago
        This. I like terminal scrollback but it's gone for me.
        fpqc 10y ago
        I just added a feature to tmux-git that makes the tmux clipboard propagate up into higher clipboards for nested tmux. https://github.com/tmux/tmux/commit/4ede35c48c089abe3fca0d94dbeac44b2ac442a1 https://github.com/tmux/tmux/commit/4ede35c48c089abe3fca0d94... Keep in mind that your terminfo has to support this, so make sure your ncurses-term package is the latest release from Jan 28. I also made a patch for st to support OSC 52 propagation into Xorg, but it was rejected by the st maintainers because it uses base64 (as the OSC de-facto spec from xterm dictates). The patch for st is however in a branch of the Wayland-fork of st https://github.com/michaelforney/st/tree/selection https://github.com/michaelforney/st/tree/selection Another option if you use nested copies of tmux is to use this feature to get the remote clipboard into the local one, then yank with xclip.
      - jdormit 10y ago
  - jakeogh 10y ago
    And it's slow.
cacplate 10y ago
They use patches of the source code for plugin style functionality so it remains as minimal as they want and we can add features at will. There is one for scrollback
jsjohnst 10y ago
I can't believe they added serial line support and not scrollback. If you're going to claim bloat, serial line support definitely ranks lower on priority than scrollback.
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  My first thought, as well.
- nine_k 10y ago
  Likely they enjoy tinkering with hardware, so they just needed the serial line support themselves.
  - josteink 10y ago
    With serial support, you definitely want scrollback, since you can't run GNU screen (or tmux for the hipsters) during a HW bootsequence. It absolutely seems like very conflicting decisions user-experience wise.
    - jstimpfle 10y ago
      What reasons are there not to use tmux over screen these days?
      - josteink 10y ago
        Plenty of reasons: Habits. Existing scripts. Muscle-memory. GNU/GPL over non-GNU/GPL. To mention a few. I've honestly not found a single feature in tmux which I need which isn't already covered (and imprinted in finger-memory) by GNU screen. On the flip side, I'd ask: What reason is there for a seasoned GNU screen user to bother switching from something proven, and which works?
        jsjohnst 10y ago
        Other reasons have been listed already, but if you're an iTerm2 user, another strong reason to use tmux over screen is the fact tmux can use "native windows" in macOS and you have deep integrations between the two. It's especially useful with remote tmux sessions.
generic_user 10y ago
It is explained in the info that scrollback is implemented in dvtm. Duplicating the functionality would probably go against the general minimalist Suckless design philosophy. Non-goals: unlimited scrollback buffer (done by dvtm)
- brennen 10y ago
  Interesting. Thanks for the pointer to dvtm. I'm not sure I can see using it when I'm already fairly hooked on tmux, but it does seem kind of nice.
ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
Scrollback is implemented as a patch: http://st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback http://st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback
- aexaey 10y ago
  This. Also, one should keep in mind that having to apply personal patches is perfectly acceptable for suckless software. In fact, for the very same st, to change font, colour scheme, or hotkeys/shortcuts - one has to edit config.h file and recompile. There is no traditional text config file or "Preferences" menu. This might sound bizarre at first, but actually works as well as editing a text config file: config.h is very well structured and compilation only takes fraction of a second. Better yet, you're not constrained by opinions of previous commiters on what should be configurable and what - not. Which is the whole point, actually.
  - nightcracker 10y ago
    It is still bizarre because not every user wants to and/or doesn't have the skills to do that.
    - lisaberlin 10y ago
      Yes, and that's perfectly ok. These people simply aren't the target audience, just like you wouldn't recommend Arch to a Linux beginner.
      - sametmax 10y ago
        Exactly. I would never use it, but I'm perfectly alright having something targeting a niche perfectly. It's better than trying to please everybody and ending up being "meh".
      - boomboomsubban 10y ago
        Not having the skills isn't the thing that should stop someone in either scenario, it's not wanting the skills. Arch is great for a beginner that wants to know how to set up their own bootloader and similar things, you can use Ubuntu for years without gaining that knowledge. Or how much C editing and compiling does the average Unix user happen to run into? There's very little natural progression in computer use, people do things the way they know how until they decide to learn more. Think of how many time's you've seen some family member slowly select file-save without ever figuring out ctrl-s.
bch 10y ago
...and does it not support pasting from the X clipboard ? It's not accepting in my installation, anyway... :/
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  I can paste in to it from the X clipboard using SHIFT-INSERT just fine.
- avhon1 10y ago
  [modifier]+shift+insert or [modifier]+shift+v are the default bindings for paste. [modifier] is most commonly Alt or Super (the Windows key). Keep in mind that your window manager might already have a binding for these, preventing them from working.
self_awareness 10y ago
Alacritty uses the same argument against scrollback and tabs -- that these features should be handled by something like 'tmux': https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty
- tokenizerrr 10y ago
  And then you have tabs that you can't copy from using your mouse because you wind up selecting content from multiple tabs.
  - falsedan 10y ago
    Most terminals have a column selection mode (e.g. Opt-click on Mac) hidden extremely deeply in documentation.
  - unkiwii 10y ago
    when I use tmux for scrolling inside st i can select text only in the current window/pane I'm and copy that text only, without the mouse obviously
    - fpqc 10y ago
      You can with the mouse as well. st doesn't support the OSC52 (Ms termcap) for setting the selection by this method, though I have an out-of-tree patch that does support it (also available as a branch in the Wayland port).
hashkb 10y ago
What's the problem with typing tmux? I think this is exactly right for the typical audience of suckless projects. No dwm or dmenu users are complaining about "missing features".

pmoriarty 10y ago

Different people want different features. There's no way they're going to remain minimal and please everyone. They have to choose the feature set, and if other programs can provide a feature that some users want, that seems like a feature ripe for pruning. I think they made the right choice.

aidenn0 10y ago
I always find tmux's scrollback to be vastly inferior to a native terminal's though. There are several reasons, but the biggest is that I'm pretty sure it's not possible to get more than a screenfull of text to my local X11 PRIMARY selection.
- fiddlerwoaroof 10y ago
  I know that there is an option for integrating tmux's internal clipboard with X11's but I haven't bothered with them because I prefer to keep the clipboards of the various terminal apps I use separate.
  - fpqc 10y ago
    It depends ultimately on the terminal to support it though. Only Linux terminals that support it atm are xterm and (u)rxvt, and there is an out-of-tree patch for st that I made (though it was rejected for being too long (around 40 lines).
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  I just use tmux's native copy/paste mechanism, using the keyboard. Using that it's possible to get the full scrollback buffer, or any part of it.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    And I want to paste it into a non-terminal application running locally while the tmux is on a remote host?
    - fiddlerwoaroof 10y ago
      You can always use ssh and something like xclip or pbcopy. Also, I always use mosh for ssh (when possible) so that I can recover my connection if I run into network issues. Since mosh works by synchronizing a virtual screen, I don't get scrollback at all without tmux or the like.
      - jacobush 10y ago
        This. I like terminal scrollback but it's gone for me.
      - fpqc 10y ago
        I just added a feature to tmux-git that makes the tmux clipboard propagate up into higher clipboards for nested tmux. https://github.com/tmux/tmux/commit/4ede35c48c089abe3fca0d94dbeac44b2ac442a1 https://github.com/tmux/tmux/commit/4ede35c48c089abe3fca0d94... Keep in mind that your terminfo has to support this, so make sure your ncurses-term package is the latest release from Jan 28. I also made a patch for st to support OSC 52 propagation into Xorg, but it was rejected by the st maintainers because it uses base64 (as the OSC de-facto spec from xterm dictates). The patch for st is however in a branch of the Wayland-fork of st https://github.com/michaelforney/st/tree/selection https://github.com/michaelforney/st/tree/selection Another option if you use nested copies of tmux is to use this feature to get the remote clipboard into the local one, then yank with xclip.
    - jdormit 10y ago
- jakeogh 10y ago
  And it's slow.

cacplate 10y ago

They use patches of the source code for plugin style functionality so it remains as minimal as they want and we can add features at will. There is one for scrollback

jsjohnst 10y ago

I can't believe they added serial line support and not scrollback. If you're going to claim bloat, serial line support definitely ranks lower on priority than scrollback.

bobwaycott 10y ago
My first thought, as well.
nine_k 10y ago
Likely they enjoy tinkering with hardware, so they just needed the serial line support themselves.
- josteink 10y ago
  With serial support, you definitely want scrollback, since you can't run GNU screen (or tmux for the hipsters) during a HW bootsequence. It absolutely seems like very conflicting decisions user-experience wise.
  - jstimpfle 10y ago
    What reasons are there not to use tmux over screen these days?
    - josteink 10y ago
      Plenty of reasons: Habits. Existing scripts. Muscle-memory. GNU/GPL over non-GNU/GPL. To mention a few. I've honestly not found a single feature in tmux which I need which isn't already covered (and imprinted in finger-memory) by GNU screen. On the flip side, I'd ask: What reason is there for a seasoned GNU screen user to bother switching from something proven, and which works?
      - jsjohnst 10y ago
        Other reasons have been listed already, but if you're an iTerm2 user, another strong reason to use tmux over screen is the fact tmux can use "native windows" in macOS and you have deep integrations between the two. It's especially useful with remote tmux sessions.

generic_user 10y ago

It is explained in the info that scrollback is implemented in dvtm. Duplicating the functionality would probably go against the general minimalist Suckless design philosophy. Non-goals: unlimited scrollback buffer (done by dvtm)

brennen 10y ago
Interesting. Thanks for the pointer to dvtm. I'm not sure I can see using it when I'm already fairly hooked on tmux, but it does seem kind of nice.

ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago

Scrollback is implemented as a patch: http://st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback http://st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback

aexaey 10y ago
This. Also, one should keep in mind that having to apply personal patches is perfectly acceptable for suckless software. In fact, for the very same st, to change font, colour scheme, or hotkeys/shortcuts - one has to edit config.h file and recompile. There is no traditional text config file or "Preferences" menu. This might sound bizarre at first, but actually works as well as editing a text config file: config.h is very well structured and compilation only takes fraction of a second. Better yet, you're not constrained by opinions of previous commiters on what should be configurable and what - not. Which is the whole point, actually.
- nightcracker 10y ago
  It is still bizarre because not every user wants to and/or doesn't have the skills to do that.
  - lisaberlin 10y ago
    Yes, and that's perfectly ok. These people simply aren't the target audience, just like you wouldn't recommend Arch to a Linux beginner.
    - sametmax 10y ago
      Exactly. I would never use it, but I'm perfectly alright having something targeting a niche perfectly. It's better than trying to please everybody and ending up being "meh".
    - boomboomsubban 10y ago
      Not having the skills isn't the thing that should stop someone in either scenario, it's not wanting the skills. Arch is great for a beginner that wants to know how to set up their own bootloader and similar things, you can use Ubuntu for years without gaining that knowledge. Or how much C editing and compiling does the average Unix user happen to run into? There's very little natural progression in computer use, people do things the way they know how until they decide to learn more. Think of how many time's you've seen some family member slowly select file-save without ever figuring out ctrl-s.

bch 10y ago

...and does it not support pasting from the X clipboard ? It's not accepting in my installation, anyway... :/

pmoriarty 10y ago
I can paste in to it from the X clipboard using SHIFT-INSERT just fine.
avhon1 10y ago
[modifier]+shift+insert or [modifier]+shift+v are the default bindings for paste. [modifier] is most commonly Alt or Super (the Windows key). Keep in mind that your window manager might already have a binding for these, preventing them from working.

self_awareness 10y ago

Alacritty uses the same argument against scrollback and tabs -- that these features should be handled by something like 'tmux': https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty

tokenizerrr 10y ago
And then you have tabs that you can't copy from using your mouse because you wind up selecting content from multiple tabs.
- falsedan 10y ago
  Most terminals have a column selection mode (e.g. Opt-click on Mac) hidden extremely deeply in documentation.
- unkiwii 10y ago
  when I use tmux for scrolling inside st i can select text only in the current window/pane I'm and copy that text only, without the mouse obviously
  - fpqc 10y ago
    You can with the mouse as well. st doesn't support the OSC52 (Ms termcap) for setting the selection by this method, though I have an out-of-tree patch that does support it (also available as a branch in the Wayland port).

hashkb 10y ago

What's the problem with typing tmux? I think this is exactly right for the typical audience of suckless projects. No dwm or dmenu users are complaining about "missing features".