5 ms·

The sneering may be driven by those who are stuck in VB6. My company is still in the middle of replacing a huge VB6 code base with a C# web based system, and do

by goda90 10y ago

The sneering may be driven by those who are stuck in VB6. My company is still in the middle of replacing a huge VB6 code base with a C# web based system, and doing anything in VB6 with the VB6 IDE is a nightmare in comparison.

WorldMaker 10y ago
I've been doing VB6 conversion stuff for most of my career, so I definitely feel this. I think the sneering is more driven by the sorts of people that think that programming shouldn't be easy/accessible to the untrained masses. There seems to be a lot of coding elitism/machismo/masochism out there.
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  Do you think VB.Net is in any way more accessible than C#? Or that any of those is less accessible than VB6? The untrained masses have a way into getting hooked on tools that are harder but offer no benefit compared to many other stuff available around. It is very easy to hate those tools.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    We ported a massive classic ASP site to VB.Net in 2003 and then several years later ported it to C#. My experience was that some devs did better with VB.Net (coming from classic ASP) than they would have jumping to C#. It wasn't quite "open the site in the new IDE and fix all the squiggly underlined bits" but that was a substantial part of the mechanical effort. Starting from nothing? Skip VB.Net and start with C# (assuming you're set on the CLR). Starting from VB6 and a novice programmer? VB.Net has advantages over C#, IMO.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    «Do you think VB.Net is in any way more accessible than C#?» Having been a teacher's assistant on courses the answer is very clearly and emphatically: Yes. It's easy to discount the accessibility of a syntax when you are already at the top of the learning curve, but the Algol family will always be tougher to teach/learn than the BASIC family. Punctuation is harder than you think. (Aside: partly why I think JavaScript is actually the easiest to teach in the Algol-inspired family for the benefit of having optional semicolons alone.) «Or that any of those is less accessible than VB6?» That's not an anecdote I have first hand experience with. I think there are a lot of cranky VB6 developers that sneer that VB.NET is worse and so much harder than VB6, but my gut tells me that that may be more the relative learning curve/gap in moving from VB6 to VB14. I don't think it is anywhere near as representative of the accessibility of learning VB14 as a first language. (I also think the more important question is the accessibility of moving from Office VBA to VB14, as it still seems for a lot of disciplines Office VBA is the most important first step towards programming.) «The untrained masses have a way into getting hooked on tools that are harder but offer no benefit compared to many other stuff available around.» I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think VB.NET is any "harder" than C# and while VB.NET might not offer "more benefit" than C# (assuming you discount syntax/accessibility entirely as a benefit), it certainly is no worse than C# as a tool for a person to use.
    - krylon 10y ago
      > my gut tells me that that may be more the relative learning curve/gap in moving from VB6 to VB14. As I remember it, there were lots of angry VB6 developers when Microsoft discontinued the "old" VB and told them to migrate to VB.Net. I vaguely remember there was some kind of online petition (although it was a long time ago, my memory might be playing tricks on me).
      - _r_o_y_ 10y ago
        Yes, it's in VS User Voice page [0] and surprisingly there's people commenting even tho it was decline. [0] https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-ide/suggestions/3440221-bring-back-classic-visual-basic-an-improved-versi https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-stud...
    - ptx 10y ago
      > I also think the more important question is the accessibility of moving from Office VBA to VB14 VBA 6 is exactly the same language as VB 6, with the same IDE. VBA 7 (the current version) adds some new types to support 64-bit mode. (I'm currently maintaining a bunch of VBA code in a third-party application that uses it for scripting.)
    - marcosdumay 10y ago
      > I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think VB.NET is any "harder" than C# and while VB.NET It was not clear by the comment, but I was not talking about VB.Net. This one is no worse than C# or Java, and I also don't see many people stuck on it. That phrase applies much more to VB6 (even more in the day), and some others like PHP, or, going out of the generic domain MathLab (that used to suck, a lot, but doesn't anymore), and VBA.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    I've learned both C++ and C#, and I ended up writing my home automation system in VB because it just came more naturally to me, and I can write code that does what I want faster with it. The side perk that I can relatively easily convert to C# later if I have to is there. But yeah, as much as I've worked in C style languages before, I find VB much more comfortable.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    It is certainly accessible to business people who's only early steps with programmming have been in VBA. It is by the way an act of cruelty from Microsoft to only provide office users with a 20 year old language that hasn't been updated since the end of the 90s... What happened to VSTA??
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      >"It is by the way an act of cruelty from Microsoft to only provide office users with a 20 year old language that hasn't been updated since the end of the 90s" Office has support for multiple languages, not just VBA. The three that spring to mind are JavaScript, M and DAX.
      - cm2187 10y ago
        You can't really write UDF in javascript, it's nothing like the VBA integration. (and on a personal note, I still prefer VBA over javascript)
        ZenoArrow 10y ago
        UDFs aren't the only reason VBA is used, though if that's what you're interested in it looks like Microsoft are planning something new in this area: http://stackoverflow.com/a/40727011 http://stackoverflow.com/a/40727011 Also, if you don't mind using 3rd party solutions, you've got other options: http://fcell.io/ http://fcell.io/ http://xlloop.sourceforge.net/ http://xlloop.sourceforge.net/
        cm2187 10y ago
        The big difference with VBA and javascript / third party solution is that I can send a xlsm spreadsheet to a colleague or another company and he will be able to run it just as well as me, I don't need to spend the next 5 years doing the support of how to reinstall the addin that is required to make it run.
        10y ago
- fpig 10y ago
  Seriously, sneering at VB6 in 2017 is elitism? Using it today comes with countless drawbacks, but is actually not any easier than using C#. I used VB6 for all my Windows applications when my alternative was to use C++ + MFC or Win32 which was significantly more difficult. There was an actual advantage. Today, there is no advantage whatsoever.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    Sorry, no, my intended tone was that sneering at VB14 (VB.NET 2015 edition) today was elitism. VB14 is a good language on equal footing with its peers, but there seems to be a lot of antagonism to it simply because it still tries to be new programmer friendly-ish. (I agree that VB6 is a relic of the past that is no longer a viable programming platform.)
mynameisvlad 10y ago
Yeah, I'm sure everyone hates VB6. That's why the last stable release was 19 years ago and the IDE stopped being supported 9 years ago.
wvenable 10y ago
VB6 used to be awesome though; sure it's really long in the tooth now and doesn't fit into modern workflows but there was a time it was great for banging out apps. I did a lot work in VB6 and I even used it to teach my daughter programming many years ago. But VB.NET never really seemed to have a point. Why develop a backwards-incompatible language with all the warts of VB? If it was originally much more closely compatible with VB6, you probably still wouldn't be stuck with VB6 code in 2017. And if it didn't try to be so but not quite VB6-like, it would make for better beginners and financial systems language.
- cm2187 10y ago
  There is a case for case insensitive languages (pardon the pun!). You just don't get to write a lot of useless bugs because you mistyped the casing of a particular variable. I see that all the time in C# live demos.
yread 10y ago
I think it's not VB6 people hate, it's VBA. VB6 was quite awesome. Writing VBA is always a pain though
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  VB6 and VBA are very similar.
- recursive 10y ago
  I'm a person. I hate VB6.
bluedino 10y ago
Previous company had a couple large programs, all in VB6. Back in the Windows 98 days, one of the accountants literally bought a copy of "Teach yourself Visual Basic in 21 Days", and wrote the first version of one of these programs. He had no formal computer science training or other programming experience. Well, other people in accounting borrowed the book and built more and more features into this program, and created a couple other similar programs. At no time did they consider 'maybe we should bring some real programmers into this' or re-write any of the code, and now they're stuck on this code and they have 4 'very bad' programmers working on it. It's a huge buggy mess with every bad programming practice you can think of.

by goda90 10y ago

WorldMaker 10y ago

I've been doing VB6 conversion stuff for most of my career, so I definitely feel this. I think the sneering is more driven by the sorts of people that think that programming shouldn't be easy/accessible to the untrained masses. There seems to be a lot of coding elitism/machismo/masochism out there.

marcosdumay 10y ago
Do you think VB.Net is in any way more accessible than C#? Or that any of those is less accessible than VB6? The untrained masses have a way into getting hooked on tools that are harder but offer no benefit compared to many other stuff available around. It is very easy to hate those tools.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  We ported a massive classic ASP site to VB.Net in 2003 and then several years later ported it to C#. My experience was that some devs did better with VB.Net (coming from classic ASP) than they would have jumping to C#. It wasn't quite "open the site in the new IDE and fix all the squiggly underlined bits" but that was a substantial part of the mechanical effort. Starting from nothing? Skip VB.Net and start with C# (assuming you're set on the CLR). Starting from VB6 and a novice programmer? VB.Net has advantages over C#, IMO.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  «Do you think VB.Net is in any way more accessible than C#?» Having been a teacher's assistant on courses the answer is very clearly and emphatically: Yes. It's easy to discount the accessibility of a syntax when you are already at the top of the learning curve, but the Algol family will always be tougher to teach/learn than the BASIC family. Punctuation is harder than you think. (Aside: partly why I think JavaScript is actually the easiest to teach in the Algol-inspired family for the benefit of having optional semicolons alone.) «Or that any of those is less accessible than VB6?» That's not an anecdote I have first hand experience with. I think there are a lot of cranky VB6 developers that sneer that VB.NET is worse and so much harder than VB6, but my gut tells me that that may be more the relative learning curve/gap in moving from VB6 to VB14. I don't think it is anywhere near as representative of the accessibility of learning VB14 as a first language. (I also think the more important question is the accessibility of moving from Office VBA to VB14, as it still seems for a lot of disciplines Office VBA is the most important first step towards programming.) «The untrained masses have a way into getting hooked on tools that are harder but offer no benefit compared to many other stuff available around.» I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think VB.NET is any "harder" than C# and while VB.NET might not offer "more benefit" than C# (assuming you discount syntax/accessibility entirely as a benefit), it certainly is no worse than C# as a tool for a person to use.
  - krylon 10y ago
    > my gut tells me that that may be more the relative learning curve/gap in moving from VB6 to VB14. As I remember it, there were lots of angry VB6 developers when Microsoft discontinued the "old" VB and told them to migrate to VB.Net. I vaguely remember there was some kind of online petition (although it was a long time ago, my memory might be playing tricks on me).
    - _r_o_y_ 10y ago
      Yes, it's in VS User Voice page [0] and surprisingly there's people commenting even tho it was decline. [0] https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-ide/suggestions/3440221-bring-back-classic-visual-basic-an-improved-versi https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-stud...
  - ptx 10y ago
    > I also think the more important question is the accessibility of moving from Office VBA to VB14 VBA 6 is exactly the same language as VB 6, with the same IDE. VBA 7 (the current version) adds some new types to support 64-bit mode. (I'm currently maintaining a bunch of VBA code in a third-party application that uses it for scripting.)
  - marcosdumay 10y ago
    > I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think VB.NET is any "harder" than C# and while VB.NET It was not clear by the comment, but I was not talking about VB.Net. This one is no worse than C# or Java, and I also don't see many people stuck on it. That phrase applies much more to VB6 (even more in the day), and some others like PHP, or, going out of the generic domain MathLab (that used to suck, a lot, but doesn't anymore), and VBA.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  I've learned both C++ and C#, and I ended up writing my home automation system in VB because it just came more naturally to me, and I can write code that does what I want faster with it. The side perk that I can relatively easily convert to C# later if I have to is there. But yeah, as much as I've worked in C style languages before, I find VB much more comfortable.
- cm2187 10y ago
  It is certainly accessible to business people who's only early steps with programmming have been in VBA. It is by the way an act of cruelty from Microsoft to only provide office users with a 20 year old language that hasn't been updated since the end of the 90s... What happened to VSTA??
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    >"It is by the way an act of cruelty from Microsoft to only provide office users with a 20 year old language that hasn't been updated since the end of the 90s" Office has support for multiple languages, not just VBA. The three that spring to mind are JavaScript, M and DAX.
    - cm2187 10y ago
      You can't really write UDF in javascript, it's nothing like the VBA integration. (and on a personal note, I still prefer VBA over javascript)
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        UDFs aren't the only reason VBA is used, though if that's what you're interested in it looks like Microsoft are planning something new in this area: http://stackoverflow.com/a/40727011 http://stackoverflow.com/a/40727011 Also, if you don't mind using 3rd party solutions, you've got other options: http://fcell.io/ http://fcell.io/ http://xlloop.sourceforge.net/ http://xlloop.sourceforge.net/
        cm2187 10y ago
        The big difference with VBA and javascript / third party solution is that I can send a xlsm spreadsheet to a colleague or another company and he will be able to run it just as well as me, I don't need to spend the next 5 years doing the support of how to reinstall the addin that is required to make it run.
        10y ago
fpig 10y ago
Seriously, sneering at VB6 in 2017 is elitism? Using it today comes with countless drawbacks, but is actually not any easier than using C#. I used VB6 for all my Windows applications when my alternative was to use C++ + MFC or Win32 which was significantly more difficult. There was an actual advantage. Today, there is no advantage whatsoever.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  Sorry, no, my intended tone was that sneering at VB14 (VB.NET 2015 edition) today was elitism. VB14 is a good language on equal footing with its peers, but there seems to be a lot of antagonism to it simply because it still tries to be new programmer friendly-ish. (I agree that VB6 is a relic of the past that is no longer a viable programming platform.)

mynameisvlad 10y ago

Yeah, I'm sure everyone hates VB6. That's why the last stable release was 19 years ago and the IDE stopped being supported 9 years ago.

wvenable 10y ago

VB6 used to be awesome though; sure it's really long in the tooth now and doesn't fit into modern workflows but there was a time it was great for banging out apps. I did a lot work in VB6 and I even used it to teach my daughter programming many years ago. But VB.NET never really seemed to have a point. Why develop a backwards-incompatible language with all the warts of VB? If it was originally much more closely compatible with VB6, you probably still wouldn't be stuck with VB6 code in 2017. And if it didn't try to be so but not quite VB6-like, it would make for better beginners and financial systems language.

cm2187 10y ago
There is a case for case insensitive languages (pardon the pun!). You just don't get to write a lot of useless bugs because you mistyped the casing of a particular variable. I see that all the time in C# live demos.

yread 10y ago

I think it's not VB6 people hate, it's VBA. VB6 was quite awesome. Writing VBA is always a pain though

ZenoArrow 10y ago
VB6 and VBA are very similar.
recursive 10y ago
I'm a person. I hate VB6.

bluedino 10y ago

Previous company had a couple large programs, all in VB6. Back in the Windows 98 days, one of the accountants literally bought a copy of "Teach yourself Visual Basic in 21 Days", and wrote the first version of one of these programs. He had no formal computer science training or other programming experience. Well, other people in accounting borrowed the book and built more and more features into this program, and created a couple other similar programs. At no time did they consider 'maybe we should bring some real programmers into this' or re-write any of the code, and now they're stuck on this code and they have 4 'very bad' programmers working on it. It's a huge buggy mess with every bad programming practice you can think of.