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> They've determined there's very little user benefit from having multiple push notification services, and they don't want to give users a way to shoot themselv

> They've determined there's very little user benefit from having multiple push notification services, and they don't want to give users a way to shoot themselves in the foot by enabling such a setting that would impact battery life like that. Well, I'm the user and I've determined that I'd rather not send private data through their servers, that I'd rather be able to do things like run a proper IMAP, XMPP, SSH or SIP client on my device without disconnections, etc. Those seem like pretty major use cases to me, ones which Apple shouldn't be making decisions for the user about. If I ran an Apple device I couldn't use SIP and I'd be required to pay 4x as much for a phone plan rather than using a cheap data-only tablet plan for example. That seems prohibitive to say the least...

madeofpalk 10y ago
Yup. That's fine. Apple's made an opinionated decision (which IMHO probably suits the masses). If you want to make a different decision and don't want Apple to handle your notifications you can disable push notifications system wide, or switch to another platform. This is of course ignoring that the user doesn't get much of a say in what push notification delivery mechanism is used - that's up to the developer. But, to be honest, if you don't trust Apple to handle your push notifications then I doubt you would trust them to do much else, and you should choose another platform.
- problems 10y ago
  > that's up to the developer Most of the time my concern isn't with apps that have a dedicated service backing them, but with apps which don't. I don't want Apple notifying me when something changes on my SSH session because I sent my SSH credentials to some 3rd party server that notified Apple to notify me. I trust absolutely no one to handle those credentials properly, I need my device to do it. And I need it to do it by interacting directly with the server.
  - bennyg 10y ago
    Then iOS isn't for you. I feel like this is a weird argument.
  - budde 10y ago
    As a user, I trust Apple far more with push notifications than I would a third party.
    - problems 10y ago
      Think about what you're saying more. Android solution: You own the server. Your server pushes directly to you. iOS solution: No ability to maintain SSH connections, instead you need to get a 3rd party app to open an SSH connection for you and send you a push notification via an Apple service when a change occurs. See the problem? Trusting Apple alone isn't an option - Apple doesn't offer a service to send you a push notification for your SSH session. You need to involve a 3rd party.
      - MBCook 10y ago
        That's the way you see it, how about the way I see it? iOS solution: everything goes through Apple, I generally trust them and know that they try to look out for me. Android solution: every app goes through someone else's server, every app needs individual vetting because I have no idea what they're doing or how hard they're trying with their privacy. Where is the trying at all. That's the way you see it, how about the way I see it? iOS solution: everything goes through Apple, I generally trust them and know that they try to look out for me. Android solution: every app goes through someone else's server, every app needs individual vetting because I have no idea what they're doing or how hard they're trying with their privacy. Or if they're trying at all. I like the iOS solution. You have it framed for my developer point of you, and I can understand that. But from your point of you, your solution has a lot of potential issues around privacy alone.
        problems 10y ago
        For the most part thought the Android solution matches the iOS solutions there though, devs use GCM. You're however missing the part where app devs have their own servers that have to talk to Apple or Google. You have to trust those 3rd parties too, all Apple or Google does is get notifications from their servers to your phone. I'm not talking about general push notifications though, nor am I speaking as a developer. I'm speaking as a user, who also wants to connect to ssh, imap, xmpp and sip. The standard Apple/Google model is fine for most push notifications but absolutely not for things like this where a direct connection to a server is something that you as a user want. That's the part I'm complaining about, not the general push message system, but the system of not being able to keep a persistent connection to a SIP or IMAP server without giving my credentials to a 3rd party so they can handle push and forward that off to Apple or Google.
geofft 10y ago
> I'd rather be able to do things like run a proper IMAP, XMPP, SSH or SIP client on my device without disconnections, etc. Those seem like pretty major use cases to me, ones which Apple shouldn't be making decisions for the user about. I learned recently that this isn't just a matter about the OS vendor making decisions, but that the OS vendors negotiate with the cell providers for longer timeouts: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/1000#issuecomment-45946148 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/1000... "The advantage GCM has is that Google has made agreements with mobile carriers not to timeout connections on those networks. Without those, websocket connection idle timeouts on mobile data connections will be unpredictable, and they tend to be more trigger happy (and also often just silently close without sending an RST)." So, if you want to run a proper IMAP (IDLE, I assume) or XMPP or anything client, you'll need to negotiate with your cell provider for better timeouts.
- problems 10y ago
  > So, if you want to run a proper IMAP (IDLE, I assume) or XMPP or anything client, you'll need to negotiate with your cell provider for better timeouts. Or just send TCP keepalives and accept worse battery life. I still get enough to get me through a day with my phone almost never sleeping fully due to all the shit I have connected constantly. Also, note that that comment is completely unsourced - I'm curious if there's any evidence backing that or it's just bunk. It wouldn't surprise me, but I also don't see any references to that anywhere else. Moxie is known to hate the 3rd party app stores and stuff, so it might just be him bullshitting about a possibility.
foodstances 10y ago
You can use SIP on iOS: https://developer.apple.com/reference/callkit https://developer.apple.com/reference/callkit You can also push notifications to your device in an end-to-end encrypted manner. iOS 10 supports notification extensions so your private app extension can receive the encrypted payload, decrypt it, and then present a normal notification.

madeofpalk 10y ago

Yup. That's fine. Apple's made an opinionated decision (which IMHO probably suits the masses). If you want to make a different decision and don't want Apple to handle your notifications you can disable push notifications system wide, or switch to another platform. This is of course ignoring that the user doesn't get much of a say in what push notification delivery mechanism is used - that's up to the developer. But, to be honest, if you don't trust Apple to handle your push notifications then I doubt you would trust them to do much else, and you should choose another platform.

problems 10y ago
> that's up to the developer Most of the time my concern isn't with apps that have a dedicated service backing them, but with apps which don't. I don't want Apple notifying me when something changes on my SSH session because I sent my SSH credentials to some 3rd party server that notified Apple to notify me. I trust absolutely no one to handle those credentials properly, I need my device to do it. And I need it to do it by interacting directly with the server.
- bennyg 10y ago
  Then iOS isn't for you. I feel like this is a weird argument.
- budde 10y ago
  As a user, I trust Apple far more with push notifications than I would a third party.
  - problems 10y ago
    Think about what you're saying more. Android solution: You own the server. Your server pushes directly to you. iOS solution: No ability to maintain SSH connections, instead you need to get a 3rd party app to open an SSH connection for you and send you a push notification via an Apple service when a change occurs. See the problem? Trusting Apple alone isn't an option - Apple doesn't offer a service to send you a push notification for your SSH session. You need to involve a 3rd party.
    - MBCook 10y ago
      That's the way you see it, how about the way I see it? iOS solution: everything goes through Apple, I generally trust them and know that they try to look out for me. Android solution: every app goes through someone else's server, every app needs individual vetting because I have no idea what they're doing or how hard they're trying with their privacy. Where is the trying at all. That's the way you see it, how about the way I see it? iOS solution: everything goes through Apple, I generally trust them and know that they try to look out for me. Android solution: every app goes through someone else's server, every app needs individual vetting because I have no idea what they're doing or how hard they're trying with their privacy. Or if they're trying at all. I like the iOS solution. You have it framed for my developer point of you, and I can understand that. But from your point of you, your solution has a lot of potential issues around privacy alone.
      - problems 10y ago
        For the most part thought the Android solution matches the iOS solutions there though, devs use GCM. You're however missing the part where app devs have their own servers that have to talk to Apple or Google. You have to trust those 3rd parties too, all Apple or Google does is get notifications from their servers to your phone. I'm not talking about general push notifications though, nor am I speaking as a developer. I'm speaking as a user, who also wants to connect to ssh, imap, xmpp and sip. The standard Apple/Google model is fine for most push notifications but absolutely not for things like this where a direct connection to a server is something that you as a user want. That's the part I'm complaining about, not the general push message system, but the system of not being able to keep a persistent connection to a SIP or IMAP server without giving my credentials to a 3rd party so they can handle push and forward that off to Apple or Google.

geofft 10y ago

> I'd rather be able to do things like run a proper IMAP, XMPP, SSH or SIP client on my device without disconnections, etc. Those seem like pretty major use cases to me, ones which Apple shouldn't be making decisions for the user about. I learned recently that this isn't just a matter about the OS vendor making decisions, but that the OS vendors negotiate with the cell providers for longer timeouts: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/1000#issuecomment-45946148 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/1000... "The advantage GCM has is that Google has made agreements with mobile carriers not to timeout connections on those networks. Without those, websocket connection idle timeouts on mobile data connections will be unpredictable, and they tend to be more trigger happy (and also often just silently close without sending an RST)." So, if you want to run a proper IMAP (IDLE, I assume) or XMPP or anything client, you'll need to negotiate with your cell provider for better timeouts.

problems 10y ago
> So, if you want to run a proper IMAP (IDLE, I assume) or XMPP or anything client, you'll need to negotiate with your cell provider for better timeouts. Or just send TCP keepalives and accept worse battery life. I still get enough to get me through a day with my phone almost never sleeping fully due to all the shit I have connected constantly. Also, note that that comment is completely unsourced - I'm curious if there's any evidence backing that or it's just bunk. It wouldn't surprise me, but I also don't see any references to that anywhere else. Moxie is known to hate the 3rd party app stores and stuff, so it might just be him bullshitting about a possibility.

foodstances 10y ago

You can use SIP on iOS: https://developer.apple.com/reference/callkit https://developer.apple.com/reference/callkit You can also push notifications to your device in an end-to-end encrypted manner. iOS 10 supports notification extensions so your private app extension can receive the encrypted payload, decrypt it, and then present a normal notification.