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For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and

by NamTaf 10y ago

For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and France and found it to be a comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent car. It handled doing 160 down the Autobahn quite comfortably without steering judder or anything I'd expected at higher speeds. It accelerated surprisingly well (not even considering it's a diesel!) all the way up to 100 making entry onto roads and highways a breeze, it had great steering which helped parking in cramped spots and did well for fuel efficiency - I was getting about 750km to a (45L, if I recall) tank in a combination of highway and town driving. All in all, I think I did something over 5000km in total and it did it everything I could have asked for. I was quite impressed by it. Compare that with the Vauxhall I had in England for a couple of days, which was utter horseshit and struggled to accelerate up a moderate incline at 80 in 4th gear (I had to put it down to 3rd, rev the hell out of it and even then it was losing speed up the hill) and I can only say good things about the VW Polo.

sitkack 10y ago
All that acceleration is enabled by it violating the environmental laws of every western country.
- wyager 10y ago
  > violating the environmental laws of every western country. European nations aren't "western"?
  - RhodesianHunter 10y ago
    They violated European laws too, that's why they're recalling them over the next two years.
  - DiabloD3 10y ago
    I think he was saying, essentially, "not only European nations, but America as well"
  - developer2 10y ago
    Actually, Europe is included in the common definition of "Western country". Yes, that definition is inflated by the US's ego of being the centre of the universe for no legitimate reason; but "Western country" is synonymous with "First World country". Strange but true.
  - mehwoot 10y ago
    European nations aren't "western"? Actually European nations is what it originally meant. Western European. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world The term originally had a literal geographic meaning. It contrasted Europe with the cultures and civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the remote Far East which early-modern Europeans saw as the East. In the contemporary cultural meaning, the phrase Western world includes Europe, as well as many countries of European colonial origin with substantial European ancestral populations in the Americas and Oceania.
    - wyager 10y ago
      Yes, I didn't realize Volkswagen violated European laws as well. So when he said "Every western nation", I was confused.
  - pixelbill 10y ago
    These terms were coined before the Americas were discovered by Europeans. Europe was the West, then you have the Middle East, then the Far East (China, Japan). That was the whole world to them pretty much. When the Americas were discovered they were known as the New World, and eventually became known as the West as well (Due to the fact that most of our culture comes from Europe, eg. Western Culture).
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      Also the Near East, which was roughly the Ottoman Empire -- countries around the Mediterranean, Black and Red Seas. ("Mediterranean": middle of land.) I suspect Rome (or some other city in Italy) is the centre of these terms, but I haven't looked for evidence of that.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Yeah, exactly. Our right to breathe clean air supersedes people's desires to drive around sporty diesels. This defense falls far short to me.
- MichaelMoser123 10y ago
  VW is not alone, Fiat Chrysler did the same thing. http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/12/news/companies/epa-emissions-cheating-fiat-chrysler/ http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/12/news/companies/epa-emissions... the tricky question: did anybody figure out how to do a clean enough diesel engine without cheating? i think its funny that European countries were pushing Diesel engines just because they emit less CO2, disregarding the NOx problem. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/05/vw-diesel-cars-scandal-declining-demand https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/05/vw-diesel-c...
  - HillaryBriss 10y ago
    And so did Trump. And before that, so did Obama. And it's against the Geneva convention. And ... oh, uh ... I'm terribly sorry. I'm in the wrong thread. Please carry on.
  - MagnumOpus 10y ago
    > the tricky question: did anybody figure out how to do a clean enough diesel engine without cheating Yes. It is just more expensive in terms of maintenance because the urea-based cleaning liquid ("AdBlue") needs to be refilled by the dealer a lot more often if the exhaust scrubbing doesn't cheat and disable it half the time. If you are interested in the details of the topic, I can recommend this CCC conference talk from last month: https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions
    - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
      wow, thanks. That's really interesting. quite amazing.
- NamTaf 10y ago
  I wouldn't know if that performance comes precisely because they violate those laws or not, so I'll take your word for it. Per my sibling comment, I wasn't dismissing those valid criticisms for their flouting of the laws. I was merely trying to point out that through whatever means they've produced what appeared to me to be reasonably compelling cars and so it wouldn't surprise me to see them getting significant sales volumes as a result.
- matt4077 10y ago
  You won't get a VW that still uses the software this is about any more from a rental agency. Firstly, they were recalled. Secondly, rental agencies in Germany (and most countries at similar levels of development as far as I can tell) have about a 12-month turnover in their fleet.
pixelbill 10y ago
No one is debating the sporty performance of your VW. You dismiss all criticisms of them immediately and go on to talk about your lovely driving experience, making it seem like you either work for VW or have a vested interest in them, so your opinion instantly counts as worthless in my book. If a person had done what VW did they would be in jail, but because we as a society have determined that rich people are much more important than poor people, this will never happen.
- NamTaf 10y ago
  I wasn't dismissing the criticisms; in fact I tried to disclaim that. My point was that notwithstanding the valid criticisms, they appear to be producing cars that in my mind would appeal to consumers so it doesn't surprise me if they were seeing significant sales. Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge. For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or indeed in the automotive industry in any way, and I neither gain nor lose any value whatsoever if they flourish or go bankrupt. To repeat: I wasn't astroturfing, I was trying to express my own personal opinion on why they may see these sales in spite of their negative press about cheating emissions controls. I agree that I could've made that more clear in the OP though, had I not just typed it as a stream of consciousness during my lunch break. I can't edit this disclaimer into the OP or reword it, though, so it will have to remain here instead.
  - pixelbill 10y ago
    >>I wasn't dismissing the criticisms What you did was the definition of dismissing the criticisms. You bring them up then immediately downplay the issue and change the topic to your "comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent" experience, in the same sentence! You end with a criticism of a competitor's car, and close with "I can only say good things about the VW Polo". Your entire post was filled with fluff words praising VW. >>Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge. Really? You're not sure if cheating gives you an advantage? Come on now.. >>For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or indeed in the automotive industry in any way, and I neither gain nor lose any value whatsoever if they flourish or go bankrupt. Ever have someone give you a very suspicious argument and then have them say "Trust me."? I've never ever trusted a person that needs to tell me to trust them, which is basically what you are doing. Guess what? I don't believe anything you say, because of the way you say it.. incredibly suspiciously.
arviewer 10y ago
The Polo is a great car. Here in Europe diesel is the most used fuel, and cars are fast enough if not faster than gas engines. But have you driven behind a diesel that floored the gas pedal? Have you seen that smoke? It's a good thing that diesel is on its way out due to hybrid technology. And VW makes great gas engines as well.

by NamTaf 10y ago

sitkack 10y ago

All that acceleration is enabled by it violating the environmental laws of every western country.

wyager 10y ago
> violating the environmental laws of every western country. European nations aren't "western"?
- RhodesianHunter 10y ago
  They violated European laws too, that's why they're recalling them over the next two years.
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  I think he was saying, essentially, "not only European nations, but America as well"
- developer2 10y ago
  Actually, Europe is included in the common definition of "Western country". Yes, that definition is inflated by the US's ego of being the centre of the universe for no legitimate reason; but "Western country" is synonymous with "First World country". Strange but true.
- mehwoot 10y ago
  European nations aren't "western"? Actually European nations is what it originally meant. Western European. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world The term originally had a literal geographic meaning. It contrasted Europe with the cultures and civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the remote Far East which early-modern Europeans saw as the East. In the contemporary cultural meaning, the phrase Western world includes Europe, as well as many countries of European colonial origin with substantial European ancestral populations in the Americas and Oceania.
  - wyager 10y ago
    Yes, I didn't realize Volkswagen violated European laws as well. So when he said "Every western nation", I was confused.
- pixelbill 10y ago
  These terms were coined before the Americas were discovered by Europeans. Europe was the West, then you have the Middle East, then the Far East (China, Japan). That was the whole world to them pretty much. When the Americas were discovered they were known as the New World, and eventually became known as the West as well (Due to the fact that most of our culture comes from Europe, eg. Western Culture).
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Also the Near East, which was roughly the Ottoman Empire -- countries around the Mediterranean, Black and Red Seas. ("Mediterranean": middle of land.) I suspect Rome (or some other city in Italy) is the centre of these terms, but I haven't looked for evidence of that.
CydeWeys 10y ago
Yeah, exactly. Our right to breathe clean air supersedes people's desires to drive around sporty diesels. This defense falls far short to me.
MichaelMoser123 10y ago
VW is not alone, Fiat Chrysler did the same thing. http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/12/news/companies/epa-emissions-cheating-fiat-chrysler/ http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/12/news/companies/epa-emissions... the tricky question: did anybody figure out how to do a clean enough diesel engine without cheating? i think its funny that European countries were pushing Diesel engines just because they emit less CO2, disregarding the NOx problem. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/05/vw-diesel-cars-scandal-declining-demand https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/05/vw-diesel-c...
- HillaryBriss 10y ago
  And so did Trump. And before that, so did Obama. And it's against the Geneva convention. And ... oh, uh ... I'm terribly sorry. I'm in the wrong thread. Please carry on.
- MagnumOpus 10y ago
  > the tricky question: did anybody figure out how to do a clean enough diesel engine without cheating Yes. It is just more expensive in terms of maintenance because the urea-based cleaning liquid ("AdBlue") needs to be refilled by the dealer a lot more often if the exhaust scrubbing doesn't cheat and disable it half the time. If you are interested in the details of the topic, I can recommend this CCC conference talk from last month: https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions
  - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
    wow, thanks. That's really interesting. quite amazing.
NamTaf 10y ago
I wouldn't know if that performance comes precisely because they violate those laws or not, so I'll take your word for it. Per my sibling comment, I wasn't dismissing those valid criticisms for their flouting of the laws. I was merely trying to point out that through whatever means they've produced what appeared to me to be reasonably compelling cars and so it wouldn't surprise me to see them getting significant sales volumes as a result.
matt4077 10y ago
You won't get a VW that still uses the software this is about any more from a rental agency. Firstly, they were recalled. Secondly, rental agencies in Germany (and most countries at similar levels of development as far as I can tell) have about a 12-month turnover in their fleet.

pixelbill 10y ago

No one is debating the sporty performance of your VW. You dismiss all criticisms of them immediately and go on to talk about your lovely driving experience, making it seem like you either work for VW or have a vested interest in them, so your opinion instantly counts as worthless in my book. If a person had done what VW did they would be in jail, but because we as a society have determined that rich people are much more important than poor people, this will never happen.

NamTaf 10y ago
I wasn't dismissing the criticisms; in fact I tried to disclaim that. My point was that notwithstanding the valid criticisms, they appear to be producing cars that in my mind would appeal to consumers so it doesn't surprise me if they were seeing significant sales. Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge. For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or indeed in the automotive industry in any way, and I neither gain nor lose any value whatsoever if they flourish or go bankrupt. To repeat: I wasn't astroturfing, I was trying to express my own personal opinion on why they may see these sales in spite of their negative press about cheating emissions controls. I agree that I could've made that more clear in the OP though, had I not just typed it as a stream of consciousness during my lunch break. I can't edit this disclaimer into the OP or reword it, though, so it will have to remain here instead.
- pixelbill 10y ago
  >>I wasn't dismissing the criticisms What you did was the definition of dismissing the criticisms. You bring them up then immediately downplay the issue and change the topic to your "comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent" experience, in the same sentence! You end with a criticism of a competitor's car, and close with "I can only say good things about the VW Polo". Your entire post was filled with fluff words praising VW. >>Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge. Really? You're not sure if cheating gives you an advantage? Come on now.. >>For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or indeed in the automotive industry in any way, and I neither gain nor lose any value whatsoever if they flourish or go bankrupt. Ever have someone give you a very suspicious argument and then have them say "Trust me."? I've never ever trusted a person that needs to tell me to trust them, which is basically what you are doing. Guess what? I don't believe anything you say, because of the way you say it.. incredibly suspiciously.

arviewer 10y ago

The Polo is a great car. Here in Europe diesel is the most used fuel, and cars are fast enough if not faster than gas engines. But have you driven behind a diesel that floored the gas pedal? Have you seen that smoke? It's a good thing that diesel is on its way out due to hybrid technology. And VW makes great gas engines as well.