9 ms·

H1-B visa and the need for reform

61 points by fwiwm2c 10y ago

Glyptodon 10y ago
Let's not mention the consistent gaming of classifications and salaries or the fact that Visas without a quick path to permanent residency are just a legal form of indentured servitude with all the perverse incentives and power imbalances you'd expect. There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking.
- virmundi 10y ago
  What many policy makers and C-levels don't understand, is once freed to their home country, the H1's now have process knowledge that they, and their peers, lacked. They know how your company works. They can extend that model in their home space to come after you. All of those processes that cost millions to form are now "free" in a low cost country.
  - dsl 10y ago
    ...and they often leave with source code. (I've personally helped 3 companies deal with that very issue in the last year)
    - ireadfaces 10y ago
      I love to take source code away. It's fun.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    I very much doubt they don't understand this, it's not exactly rocket science. Boosting earnings QoQ or YoY to pop the share price can easily result in many millions of immediate payout in stock options, what happens in the longer term (to the corporation, to the country) is not necessarily a big concern for those who are temporarily calling the shots at any given corporation.
  - tn13 10y ago
    Would like to know how many instances have you seen where the home country got millions in this fashion.
- wbl 10y ago
  Maybe not. Maybe I want to work in the US for a few years, and then decide to go back to Europe/elsewhere. The employer tie is much worse, but has been changed.
  - Glyptodon 10y ago
    Giving the option for permanent residency does not prevent anyone from returning to wherever they came from if they so desire.
- pkaye 10y ago
  How does this work in other countries btw? Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease?
  - throwaw181ay 10y ago
    A lot of EU countries have programs that do not tie the work visa with a specific job, at least for engineers. On the top of my head, Portugal,Sweden,Germany and Belgium do and France with implement some form of "tech visa" like that. Canada does too AFAIK. I think it's fair. "H1-B" should be paid as much as their local equivalent and shouldn't fear being fired.
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    I don't know the process, but 2 of my (American) coworkers recently left my company (in the US) to work for companies in Europe. Didn't seem at all hard to get to work there. Don't know about permanent residency, though.
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    It depends on the country. It ranges from much easier (compared to the other way around) to quite hard. There may be quotas but no lottery involved though.
  - cr1895 10y ago
    >Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease Nothing is easy, especially when it comes to moving countries. I can offer insight on the Netherlands specifically. Other EU countries might have similar systems in place, though each is different. There are generally three options for an American to move to the Netherlands for work: 1) get a highly-skilled job outright with a Dutch company that fulfills certain criteria in a position which cannot be filled locally. Not all companies are eligible to hire highly-skilled migrants from abroad (they have to apply to do so, and there are considerable costs involved). There are some nice tax perks to this (see 30% ruling). 2) start your own business with relatively small investment capital (<5000eur) and gain residence through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT) 3) get a Master's degree from a Dutch university, after which you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for one year, then you'll receive a highly-skilled migrant work visa The above provide a path to a renewable residence permit for highly-skilled migrants. Typically you'll start working with a temporary 1-yr contract which, assuming things go well, will be extended for another year. After 2 years of temporary contracts and if the company still wants to keep you they'll give you an indefinite contract. After this, you'll next receive a highly-skilled migrant visa valid for 5 years. An American is eligible for permanent residence after having lived uninteruppted in the Netherlands for 5 years and after passing an integration test. The integration test requires that you speak Dutch, though honestly this is not so difficult (it's at an A1 level and the tests are fairly basic; they also test your ability to function in the Dutch job market and society which is a bit silly to ask of a highly-skilled migrant who's already successfully lived there for 5 years). I'm sort of in the process of gaining permanent residence. I have the time, the degree, the job, and most of the Dutch; it's only a matter of passing the test and submitting the paperwork. But since I have a 5-yr permit and permanent job contract already I'm not in a major rush. edit: I feel like it's important to point out that the highly-skilled migrant permit is obtained for you on behalf of your employer, however it is not tied to that employer. You're free to find other work elsewhere without any retribution.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  > There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking. Note that it isn't a flaw in the visa, but rather in the green card application process. A European citizen on a dual-intent/immigrant visa will be able to get permanent residency within 2 years. Not true for Indians, Chinese, ... no matter their visa.
- tn13 10y ago
  Not to mention getting rid of the nonsensical anti-asian bias in the GC process. It is not really fault of Indians and Chinese that they are not trying to enter USA as refugees and instead coming as well educated special skilled individuals. The 9 year waiting period is one of the worst kind of discrimination.
geodel 10y ago
There is no reference to lots of dubious universities exist only to have candidates from India/China. The students immediately get a CPT and start working at places nothing to do with their fields. They appear mostly for exams and some weekend classes and keep working full time. Unless higher education criteria defined and universities scrutinized for bad behavior, most of the H1 abuse will shift to F1.
- fwiwm2c 10y ago
  That is a fair point - agree that there is no clear threshold on the "quality" of education provided by various universities. Thus admissions into the lower rung of universities is quite easy which can be exploited. I didn't want to get into this as it opens another can of worms on whether US universities should be certified to give an OPT period (which eventually becomes a stepping stone for H1-Bs). Do you have any suggestions here?
  - geodel 10y ago
    Considering the problem has existed for long time and very smart people tried to find solution. I do not think there is really easy solution lurking around. From my perspective US gives the best combination of features to a very large section of Indians who hold H1 visa. These are (relative)large american salary, a high quality 'Indian' lifestyle which includes large availability of movies, cricket, food etc and other assorted luxuries which in US are called middle class things but they are almost very top end luxuries back home. The intersection of these features makes it very unique for Indians in US as compared to European/Canadian/Australian in US. If first world person get laid off, or decide to leave, it may be monetary loss but other things back home will compensate. But for most Indians it may a unequivocal loss in term of money and lifestyle. The only solution I think is massive infrastructure improvement in India affordable at Indian salaries. This is very difficult to achieve. For now it is whining about traffic on US-267 or whatever in a luxury car vs 2-3 hr of soul crushing train and bus ride 1-way. So once things improve drastically back home people will have much less incentive to leave just for money.
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mikereilly01 10y ago
> Don’t read too much into IBM, Accenture, CapGemini as being American companies — all of them have very large bases in India and they use H1 visa to get low cost Indian workers on the client side in US. I've never seen anyone prove the claim that tech firms (or any companies for that matter) use H1B workers for cheap labor. Also, this paragraph is just garbage "Don't read too much into it..." as if we should just trust the author.
- fwiwm2c 10y ago
  Author here. Though IBM hasn't officially confirmed this themselves as they have stopped calling out the number of employees in each of their countries, but there have been several pieces out there corroborating the size of its Indian workforce exceed their US ones (and these articles are more than 4 yrs old when IBM US workforce was still large and the recent layoffs hadn't happened): http://nypost.com/2013/10/05/ibm-now-employs-more-workers-in-india-than-us/ http://nypost.com/2013/10/05/ibm-now-employs-more-workers-in... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2493565/it-careers/in-a-symbolic-shift--ibm-s-india-workforce-likely-exceeds-u-s-.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2493565/it-careers/in-a... IBM, Accenture and CG make a large amount of their revenue from IT outsourcing [1] where their largest competitors are TCS, Infosys etc. They can't win the cost game without having a significant presence in India and getting some of their employees client side. [1] http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-ibm-makes-money/ http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-ibm-makes-money/
  - bguillet 10y ago
    > Don’t read too much into IBM, Accenture, CapGemini as being American companies — Nitpick, but yeah, CapGemini is French ;)
  - mikereilly01 10y ago
    IT outsourcing is not an H1B problem. If they are hiring Indian workers in India, it has absolutely nothing to do with H1B visas. A comment above discusses that Accenture seemingly used Indian workers on H1B, but also alludes to simply outsourcing work to India. These problems are significantly different and arguing for H1B reform based on international hiring practices is misleading. I'm not saying the H1B system isn't a problem, but I don't think your "sources" backup your claims. All of your sources are about hiring in India, not hiring Indian workers in the US.
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davidf18 10y ago
"Recently, Obama administration also passed a directive to allow the spouses of H1-B visa to apply for employment authorization (or the ability to work at any place). This is a great move as it again encourages more talented people, who are married, to come to US..." This appears to be a "back door" to displace Americans from STEM jobs and going around the H1-B Visa program requirements and employment limits. Immigrants should only be able to work STEM jobs in the US if there is absolutely nobody trained to do that job in the US which is the intent of H1-B. As it stands, it is a way for tech firms to depress wage rates and to displace Americans from jobs. President Obama was serving elites that want to depress wage rates of American STEM workers. As you might recall, there was recently a legal judgment against Apple, Google, .... for colliding to not try to hire each other's employees. I hope the Trump administration clamps down on all of these ways that try to keep American STEM workers from receiving their fare wages.
- davidf18 10y ago
  If you're going to downvote, have the courage to say that you want American wage rates depressed and for Americans to be displaced from jobs. Generally, people who care for others don't want them to lose their jobs or have depressed wages from immigrants.
  - davidf18 10y ago
    If you're going to downvote, have the courage to say that you want American wage rates depressed and for Americans to be displaced from jobs. Generally, people who care for others don't want them to lose their jobs or have depressed wages from immigrants.
- vthallam 10y ago
  There are like tens of posts on HN where the same discussion about the artificial suppression of American wages because of the foreign STEM graduates. The consensus among most of the people is that, 1) The exploitation of the visa's by consulting companies should be avoided. 2) Allow the foreign workers to easily move between jobs and provide a path to Green cards which avoids labor exploitation and low wages issue. 3) More funding for STEM education in US. As per the down votes, I guess you are getting them because you are criticizing the H4 spouse visa's. By all means make sure they follow the norms like H1, but letting the spouses work helps their families and eventually American economy to a minuscule percent.
wnevets 10y ago
If "cheap labor" from H1-Bs can do your job, you need to get better at your job.
- DarkKomunalec 10y ago
  It's been predicted 50% of jobs are at risk of being done by robots, so surely cheap H1-Bs could do them as well. Are you saying 50% of people need to just 'get better'? Or that you should move your family to Mexico or some other low cost of living country, just so you can survive at a globally competitive wage? Edit: I also find the attitude that Americans are SO GREAT, only the worst of them should fear being outdone by a foreigner, very arrogant and not based in fact.
  - wnevets 10y ago
    Yes. We are not entitled to anything, including being protected from competition of robots and those living in a low cost country.
    - ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
      No, but we can vote for politicians who promise to reform or do away with the H1B program altogether. Are you suggesting Americans shouldn't vote for their own interests?
      - wnevets 10y ago
        You can try to delay the inevitable but you can't hide from competition forever, especially if you want to live in a country with capitalism.
        scarface74 10y ago
        Exactly. I may look back and regret this later, but I don't see a circumstance where both my job will be outsourced and my skill set as a senior dev who can communicate architecture and business clearly and has developed soft skills won't give me a competitive advantage over cheap outsourced labor.
general_ai 10y ago
It always cracks me up when I read H1B suggestions from people who weren't themselves H1Bs. They always focus on the intake, or on "gaming", or wage thresholds, or whatever the hell else their particular side of the aisle told them to worry about. Yet this problem is in a dire need of a free market based solution. Let me explain. H1B, for those who don't know, is the indentured servitude visa. While you can theoretically move between jobs, your next job has to match the one you had before nearly exactly, and you have to find it _before_ you leave your current job. Once you leave or lose the job you're currently on H1B for, you have to GTFO of the country in _two weeks_. I.e. if your employer finds out you're looking, and they fire you (which they can), you will have no recourse whatsoever. Same with them firing you if you ask for a raise or promo: GTFO. You're in this limbo state until you get your green card, a lengthy process which for me took 7 years, and for someone from India or China would take even longer. Companies abuse this power quite heavily by either not promoting/giving raises to H1Bs (because what are they gonna do, quit?) or hiring vastly more experienced workers into entry level jobs, or a combination of the two. Here's what should be done to fix this: 1. Make the grace period between jobs at least 6 months. If people are abused, they should be free to leave their job without leaving the country, and find their next job over a reasonable period of time. 2. Make it possible for an H1B to move to another job more freely. Any job in the same industry should be acceptable. To make things fair to employers, require repayment of visa related fees if employee moves within the first year. This alone would fix most of the problems you see on the ground today, including the problem of underemployment of fresh grads. Because movement of H1Bs will be unrestricted, they'll command "market rate". That Eastern European double PhD you hired for your entry level position will be able to move to a job that pays commensurate with her expertise, freeing up the entry level position for a fresh grad. The system will just be much more healthy overall. However, this will never happen. All those tech CEOs who currently go on ad nauseam about helping people, all of them, without exception, want cheap fresh meat that's not going anywhere. And for as long as H1B existed, they were getting exactly that.
- canabisjunke 10y ago
  Spot on.
- canabisjunke 10y ago
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vmarsy 10y ago
The math facts aren't completely correct since we don't know the ratio of Advanced degree vs. non advanced ones. Also the table includes transferred and renewed H1B, for which the cap does not apply. What would be interesting is to know the number of new H1B applicant of those big companies. Let's assume it's around 40k for the top 3 in that list: Infosys+Capgemini+Tata, and assume all Advanced degree seats gets filled, then there'd be 236-20 = 216k remaining applicants in the undergrad pool (Advanced degree gets 2 chances: one in the advanced degree pool, where 20k gets picked, then those who didn't get picked in that round fall back in the normal pool. Without knowing the ratio but assuming it's at least 20k Advanced degree applicants, the only thing we can conclude is that there is 216k remaining applicants in the Non-advanced degree pool). With 65k seats, with I+C+T, there's a 65/216 = 30% chance of getting an H1B if you don't have a US Advanced degree. Now let's suppose we completely forbid I+C+T to get H1B visas, then there would be a 65/(216-40) = 36% chance of getting an H1B. It's an increase, but 36% remains pretty low. This is an extreme example where we would completely forbid those to apply, if instead we limit them to 10k as the author suggest, the probability increase of people not in those companies would be even less important. Regarding exempting the cap for those who studied in the US, I think that would be a great idea, as long as "fake" universities[1][2] do not exist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Northern_New_Jersey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Northern_New_Jer... - This one is interesting as it was created by DHS as a bait. [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-university-was-fake-but-visa-fraud-arrests-are-real.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-unive...
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  There are already a few real universities of dubious value that profit from the current situation. I've seen former coworkers work 1-2 years after graduating, save up to be able to afford a Masters in one of those bottom tier universities, and they're now employed on OPT status.
Aldo_MX 10y ago
A simple solution: Auction the visas. This will raise the price of foreign talent until it reaches a balance point so it will be more difficult to abuse the visa system to bring "cheap labor".
- fwiwm2c 10y ago
  This hurts folks from non STEM fields who are also entitled to H1-B visas..
- tacostakohashi 10y ago
  This is the correct answer. In particular, the suggestion in the article that there be some extra visa for "client side" consultants is pretty naive. Pretty much every job has some complex mixture of dealing with external clients, "internal clients", and internal work that doesn't relate to a specific client. The federal government is in no position to accurately make this assessment for any given job in a way that can't be trivially gamed. Most obviously, a sudden spike of "joint venture" companies between Wipro and companies, where the employees work only on company work for the JV, and never for an external client...
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kyleschiller 10y ago
Say Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) files for 13k visas for in 2016. If the total number of applications were 236k, then the expected number of visas TCS is going to get is (using probability) => (13,000/236,000)*65,000 = 3,580 visas Similarly, let us say a startup is filing for an H1-B for 1 of their employees. Their expected probability of securing the visa is => 1/236000*65000=0.27 As you can see, the current lottery system favors the company which applies for the most number of visas. How is this favoritism? Isn't the conclusion here just that everyone has similar odds and companies that apply for more visas will get more visas?
- fwiwm2c 10y ago
  Yes - everyone has similar odds. But if you are a large outsourcing company such as TCS (which has 350k+ employees), you would simply file a lot of H1-B applications to secure the maximum number of visas. And since the number of visas are limited, each visa you secure is one less that another company would have secured. A startup (which have far lesser number of employees) can't do that.
seshagiric 10y ago
The article is good in the sense that it at least tries to consider pros & cons. However specifically from a startup point of view, H1-b is probably a not good fit anyway. Typically h1-b application process starts in Nov-Dec, from Feb-Mar, and the earliest someone who gets the visa can start is Sept. I doubt startups can wait for the minimum 6 month period for their new employees to join. However the lottery system is indeed unfair for smaller companies.
- fwiwm2c 10y ago
  For a new student graduating from undergrad or grad course, the timing works out quite well - especially given the OPT period. Many times, you will notice that a startup literally doesn't hire a candidate from another country but hires international students studying in US universities - which is what I was trying to call out in the article.

61 points by fwiwm2c 10y ago

Let's not mention the consistent gaming of classifications and salaries or the fact that Visas without a quick path to permanent residency are just a legal form of indentured servitude with all the perverse incentives and power imbalances you'd expect. There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking.

virmundi 10y ago
What many policy makers and C-levels don't understand, is once freed to their home country, the H1's now have process knowledge that they, and their peers, lacked. They know how your company works. They can extend that model in their home space to come after you. All of those processes that cost millions to form are now "free" in a low cost country.
- dsl 10y ago
  ...and they often leave with source code. (I've personally helped 3 companies deal with that very issue in the last year)
  - ireadfaces 10y ago
    I love to take source code away. It's fun.
- mistermann 10y ago
  I very much doubt they don't understand this, it's not exactly rocket science. Boosting earnings QoQ or YoY to pop the share price can easily result in many millions of immediate payout in stock options, what happens in the longer term (to the corporation, to the country) is not necessarily a big concern for those who are temporarily calling the shots at any given corporation.
- tn13 10y ago
  Would like to know how many instances have you seen where the home country got millions in this fashion.
wbl 10y ago
Maybe not. Maybe I want to work in the US for a few years, and then decide to go back to Europe/elsewhere. The employer tie is much worse, but has been changed.
- Glyptodon 10y ago
  Giving the option for permanent residency does not prevent anyone from returning to wherever they came from if they so desire.
pkaye 10y ago
How does this work in other countries btw? Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease?
- throwaw181ay 10y ago
  A lot of EU countries have programs that do not tie the work visa with a specific job, at least for engineers. On the top of my head, Portugal,Sweden,Germany and Belgium do and France with implement some form of "tech visa" like that. Canada does too AFAIK. I think it's fair. "H1-B" should be paid as much as their local equivalent and shouldn't fear being fired.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  I don't know the process, but 2 of my (American) coworkers recently left my company (in the US) to work for companies in Europe. Didn't seem at all hard to get to work there. Don't know about permanent residency, though.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  It depends on the country. It ranges from much easier (compared to the other way around) to quite hard. There may be quotas but no lottery involved though.
- cr1895 10y ago
  >Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease Nothing is easy, especially when it comes to moving countries. I can offer insight on the Netherlands specifically. Other EU countries might have similar systems in place, though each is different. There are generally three options for an American to move to the Netherlands for work: 1) get a highly-skilled job outright with a Dutch company that fulfills certain criteria in a position which cannot be filled locally. Not all companies are eligible to hire highly-skilled migrants from abroad (they have to apply to do so, and there are considerable costs involved). There are some nice tax perks to this (see 30% ruling). 2) start your own business with relatively small investment capital (<5000eur) and gain residence through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT) 3) get a Master's degree from a Dutch university, after which you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for one year, then you'll receive a highly-skilled migrant work visa The above provide a path to a renewable residence permit for highly-skilled migrants. Typically you'll start working with a temporary 1-yr contract which, assuming things go well, will be extended for another year. After 2 years of temporary contracts and if the company still wants to keep you they'll give you an indefinite contract. After this, you'll next receive a highly-skilled migrant visa valid for 5 years. An American is eligible for permanent residence after having lived uninteruppted in the Netherlands for 5 years and after passing an integration test. The integration test requires that you speak Dutch, though honestly this is not so difficult (it's at an A1 level and the tests are fairly basic; they also test your ability to function in the Dutch job market and society which is a bit silly to ask of a highly-skilled migrant who's already successfully lived there for 5 years). I'm sort of in the process of gaining permanent residence. I have the time, the degree, the job, and most of the Dutch; it's only a matter of passing the test and submitting the paperwork. But since I have a 5-yr permit and permanent job contract already I'm not in a major rush. edit: I feel like it's important to point out that the highly-skilled migrant permit is obtained for you on behalf of your employer, however it is not tied to that employer. You're free to find other work elsewhere without any retribution.
hocuspocus 10y ago
> There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking. Note that it isn't a flaw in the visa, but rather in the green card application process. A European citizen on a dual-intent/immigrant visa will be able to get permanent residency within 2 years. Not true for Indians, Chinese, ... no matter their visa.
tn13 10y ago
Not to mention getting rid of the nonsensical anti-asian bias in the GC process. It is not really fault of Indians and Chinese that they are not trying to enter USA as refugees and instead coming as well educated special skilled individuals. The 9 year waiting period is one of the worst kind of discrimination.

geodel 10y ago

There is no reference to lots of dubious universities exist only to have candidates from India/China. The students immediately get a CPT and start working at places nothing to do with their fields. They appear mostly for exams and some weekend classes and keep working full time. Unless higher education criteria defined and universities scrutinized for bad behavior, most of the H1 abuse will shift to F1.

fwiwm2c 10y ago
That is a fair point - agree that there is no clear threshold on the "quality" of education provided by various universities. Thus admissions into the lower rung of universities is quite easy which can be exploited. I didn't want to get into this as it opens another can of worms on whether US universities should be certified to give an OPT period (which eventually becomes a stepping stone for H1-Bs). Do you have any suggestions here?
- geodel 10y ago
  Considering the problem has existed for long time and very smart people tried to find solution. I do not think there is really easy solution lurking around. From my perspective US gives the best combination of features to a very large section of Indians who hold H1 visa. These are (relative)large american salary, a high quality 'Indian' lifestyle which includes large availability of movies, cricket, food etc and other assorted luxuries which in US are called middle class things but they are almost very top end luxuries back home. The intersection of these features makes it very unique for Indians in US as compared to European/Canadian/Australian in US. If first world person get laid off, or decide to leave, it may be monetary loss but other things back home will compensate. But for most Indians it may a unequivocal loss in term of money and lifestyle. The only solution I think is massive infrastructure improvement in India affordable at Indian salaries. This is very difficult to achieve. For now it is whining about traffic on US-267 or whatever in a luxury car vs 2-3 hr of soul crushing train and bus ride 1-way. So once things improve drastically back home people will have much less incentive to leave just for money.

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mikereilly01 10y ago

> Don’t read too much into IBM, Accenture, CapGemini as being American companies — all of them have very large bases in India and they use H1 visa to get low cost Indian workers on the client side in US. I've never seen anyone prove the claim that tech firms (or any companies for that matter) use H1B workers for cheap labor. Also, this paragraph is just garbage "Don't read too much into it..." as if we should just trust the author.

fwiwm2c 10y ago
Author here. Though IBM hasn't officially confirmed this themselves as they have stopped calling out the number of employees in each of their countries, but there have been several pieces out there corroborating the size of its Indian workforce exceed their US ones (and these articles are more than 4 yrs old when IBM US workforce was still large and the recent layoffs hadn't happened): http://nypost.com/2013/10/05/ibm-now-employs-more-workers-in-india-than-us/ http://nypost.com/2013/10/05/ibm-now-employs-more-workers-in... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2493565/it-careers/in-a-symbolic-shift--ibm-s-india-workforce-likely-exceeds-u-s-.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2493565/it-careers/in-a... IBM, Accenture and CG make a large amount of their revenue from IT outsourcing [1] where their largest competitors are TCS, Infosys etc. They can't win the cost game without having a significant presence in India and getting some of their employees client side. [1] http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-ibm-makes-money/ http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-ibm-makes-money/
- bguillet 10y ago
  > Don’t read too much into IBM, Accenture, CapGemini as being American companies — Nitpick, but yeah, CapGemini is French ;)
- mikereilly01 10y ago
  IT outsourcing is not an H1B problem. If they are hiring Indian workers in India, it has absolutely nothing to do with H1B visas. A comment above discusses that Accenture seemingly used Indian workers on H1B, but also alludes to simply outsourcing work to India. These problems are significantly different and arguing for H1B reform based on international hiring practices is misleading. I'm not saying the H1B system isn't a problem, but I don't think your "sources" backup your claims. All of your sources are about hiring in India, not hiring Indian workers in the US.

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davidf18 10y ago

"Recently, Obama administration also passed a directive to allow the spouses of H1-B visa to apply for employment authorization (or the ability to work at any place). This is a great move as it again encourages more talented people, who are married, to come to US..." This appears to be a "back door" to displace Americans from STEM jobs and going around the H1-B Visa program requirements and employment limits. Immigrants should only be able to work STEM jobs in the US if there is absolutely nobody trained to do that job in the US which is the intent of H1-B. As it stands, it is a way for tech firms to depress wage rates and to displace Americans from jobs. President Obama was serving elites that want to depress wage rates of American STEM workers. As you might recall, there was recently a legal judgment against Apple, Google, .... for colliding to not try to hire each other's employees. I hope the Trump administration clamps down on all of these ways that try to keep American STEM workers from receiving their fare wages.

davidf18 10y ago
If you're going to downvote, have the courage to say that you want American wage rates depressed and for Americans to be displaced from jobs. Generally, people who care for others don't want them to lose their jobs or have depressed wages from immigrants.
- davidf18 10y ago
  If you're going to downvote, have the courage to say that you want American wage rates depressed and for Americans to be displaced from jobs. Generally, people who care for others don't want them to lose their jobs or have depressed wages from immigrants.
vthallam 10y ago
There are like tens of posts on HN where the same discussion about the artificial suppression of American wages because of the foreign STEM graduates. The consensus among most of the people is that, 1) The exploitation of the visa's by consulting companies should be avoided. 2) Allow the foreign workers to easily move between jobs and provide a path to Green cards which avoids labor exploitation and low wages issue. 3) More funding for STEM education in US. As per the down votes, I guess you are getting them because you are criticizing the H4 spouse visa's. By all means make sure they follow the norms like H1, but letting the spouses work helps their families and eventually American economy to a minuscule percent.

wnevets 10y ago

If "cheap labor" from H1-Bs can do your job, you need to get better at your job.

DarkKomunalec 10y ago
It's been predicted 50% of jobs are at risk of being done by robots, so surely cheap H1-Bs could do them as well. Are you saying 50% of people need to just 'get better'? Or that you should move your family to Mexico or some other low cost of living country, just so you can survive at a globally competitive wage? Edit: I also find the attitude that Americans are SO GREAT, only the worst of them should fear being outdone by a foreigner, very arrogant and not based in fact.
- wnevets 10y ago
  Yes. We are not entitled to anything, including being protected from competition of robots and those living in a low cost country.
  - ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
    No, but we can vote for politicians who promise to reform or do away with the H1B program altogether. Are you suggesting Americans shouldn't vote for their own interests?
    - wnevets 10y ago
      You can try to delay the inevitable but you can't hide from competition forever, especially if you want to live in a country with capitalism.
      - scarface74 10y ago
        Exactly. I may look back and regret this later, but I don't see a circumstance where both my job will be outsourced and my skill set as a senior dev who can communicate architecture and business clearly and has developed soft skills won't give me a competitive advantage over cheap outsourced labor.

general_ai 10y ago

It always cracks me up when I read H1B suggestions from people who weren't themselves H1Bs. They always focus on the intake, or on "gaming", or wage thresholds, or whatever the hell else their particular side of the aisle told them to worry about. Yet this problem is in a dire need of a free market based solution. Let me explain. H1B, for those who don't know, is the indentured servitude visa. While you can theoretically move between jobs, your next job has to match the one you had before nearly exactly, and you have to find it _before_ you leave your current job. Once you leave or lose the job you're currently on H1B for, you have to GTFO of the country in _two weeks_. I.e. if your employer finds out you're looking, and they fire you (which they can), you will have no recourse whatsoever. Same with them firing you if you ask for a raise or promo: GTFO. You're in this limbo state until you get your green card, a lengthy process which for me took 7 years, and for someone from India or China would take even longer. Companies abuse this power quite heavily by either not promoting/giving raises to H1Bs (because what are they gonna do, quit?) or hiring vastly more experienced workers into entry level jobs, or a combination of the two. Here's what should be done to fix this: 1. Make the grace period between jobs at least 6 months. If people are abused, they should be free to leave their job without leaving the country, and find their next job over a reasonable period of time. 2. Make it possible for an H1B to move to another job more freely. Any job in the same industry should be acceptable. To make things fair to employers, require repayment of visa related fees if employee moves within the first year. This alone would fix most of the problems you see on the ground today, including the problem of underemployment of fresh grads. Because movement of H1Bs will be unrestricted, they'll command "market rate". That Eastern European double PhD you hired for your entry level position will be able to move to a job that pays commensurate with her expertise, freeing up the entry level position for a fresh grad. The system will just be much more healthy overall. However, this will never happen. All those tech CEOs who currently go on ad nauseam about helping people, all of them, without exception, want cheap fresh meat that's not going anywhere. And for as long as H1B existed, they were getting exactly that.

canabisjunke 10y ago
Spot on.
canabisjunke 10y ago

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vmarsy 10y ago

The math facts aren't completely correct since we don't know the ratio of Advanced degree vs. non advanced ones. Also the table includes transferred and renewed H1B, for which the cap does not apply. What would be interesting is to know the number of new H1B applicant of those big companies. Let's assume it's around 40k for the top 3 in that list: Infosys+Capgemini+Tata, and assume all Advanced degree seats gets filled, then there'd be 236-20 = 216k remaining applicants in the undergrad pool (Advanced degree gets 2 chances: one in the advanced degree pool, where 20k gets picked, then those who didn't get picked in that round fall back in the normal pool. Without knowing the ratio but assuming it's at least 20k Advanced degree applicants, the only thing we can conclude is that there is 216k remaining applicants in the Non-advanced degree pool). With 65k seats, with I+C+T, there's a 65/216 = 30% chance of getting an H1B if you don't have a US Advanced degree. Now let's suppose we completely forbid I+C+T to get H1B visas, then there would be a 65/(216-40) = 36% chance of getting an H1B. It's an increase, but 36% remains pretty low. This is an extreme example where we would completely forbid those to apply, if instead we limit them to 10k as the author suggest, the probability increase of people not in those companies would be even less important. Regarding exempting the cap for those who studied in the US, I think that would be a great idea, as long as "fake" universities[1][2] do not exist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Northern_New_Jersey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Northern_New_Jer... - This one is interesting as it was created by DHS as a bait. [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-university-was-fake-but-visa-fraud-arrests-are-real.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-unive...

hocuspocus 10y ago
There are already a few real universities of dubious value that profit from the current situation. I've seen former coworkers work 1-2 years after graduating, save up to be able to afford a Masters in one of those bottom tier universities, and they're now employed on OPT status.

Aldo_MX 10y ago

A simple solution: Auction the visas. This will raise the price of foreign talent until it reaches a balance point so it will be more difficult to abuse the visa system to bring "cheap labor".

fwiwm2c 10y ago
This hurts folks from non STEM fields who are also entitled to H1-B visas..
tacostakohashi 10y ago
This is the correct answer. In particular, the suggestion in the article that there be some extra visa for "client side" consultants is pretty naive. Pretty much every job has some complex mixture of dealing with external clients, "internal clients", and internal work that doesn't relate to a specific client. The federal government is in no position to accurately make this assessment for any given job in a way that can't be trivially gamed. Most obviously, a sudden spike of "joint venture" companies between Wipro and companies, where the employees work only on company work for the JV, and never for an external client...

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kyleschiller 10y ago

Say Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) files for 13k visas for in 2016. If the total number of applications were 236k, then the expected number of visas TCS is going to get is (using probability) => (13,000/236,000)*65,000 = 3,580 visas Similarly, let us say a startup is filing for an H1-B for 1 of their employees. Their expected probability of securing the visa is => 1/236000*65000=0.27 As you can see, the current lottery system favors the company which applies for the most number of visas. How is this favoritism? Isn't the conclusion here just that everyone has similar odds and companies that apply for more visas will get more visas?

fwiwm2c 10y ago
Yes - everyone has similar odds. But if you are a large outsourcing company such as TCS (which has 350k+ employees), you would simply file a lot of H1-B applications to secure the maximum number of visas. And since the number of visas are limited, each visa you secure is one less that another company would have secured. A startup (which have far lesser number of employees) can't do that.

seshagiric 10y ago

The article is good in the sense that it at least tries to consider pros & cons. However specifically from a startup point of view, H1-b is probably a not good fit anyway. Typically h1-b application process starts in Nov-Dec, from Feb-Mar, and the earliest someone who gets the visa can start is Sept. I doubt startups can wait for the minimum 6 month period for their new employees to join. However the lottery system is indeed unfair for smaller companies.

fwiwm2c 10y ago
For a new student graduating from undergrad or grad course, the timing works out quite well - especially given the OPT period. Many times, you will notice that a startup literally doesn't hire a candidate from another country but hires international students studying in US universities - which is what I was trying to call out in the article.