5 ms·

Joel Spolsky: Time to take a stand

115 points by nmjohn 10y ago

rdtsc 10y ago
Surely all the tech CEOs also took a stand in 2011 when Obama banned refugees from Iraq. Anyone wanna check that... http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-te...
- marklyon 10y ago
  Or 2015, when the administration put into place the law [1] that the President is using now. If you read the EO [2], you'll note it doesn't actually list the countries. The list was already in place. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/158 https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/158 [2] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3431228/Extreme-Vetting-EO.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3431228/Extreme-V...
- TimJRobinson 10y ago
  This is about the blanket ban on immigration from 7 countries, not refugees. This ban includes highly skilled workers who already have visas to work in the USA and will have a measurable impact on the economy and future of the USA.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    It is different, sure, but also similar. Given that there was 0 outrage then and now it is up to 11 something doesn't sound right. For them to care so much about immigration, I am sure they at least wrote a toned-down memo, or sent a lobbyist to have a chat with some Congress-person about it. Also, how many CEOs have been lobbying Obama to end the foreign interference which created the suffering and refugee crisis over the years. I am guessing not too many.
    - TimJRobinson 10y ago
      It's different in that this directly affects their companies. This is hurting their own employees many of whom now cannot return to work and restricting the pool of workers they can hire from in the future. It may only be a little pain now but the more the USA restricts immigration (especially with no regards to actual skills these immigrants possess) the less competitive silicon valley will be with the rest of the world.
- batbomb 10y ago
  Surely this is a false equivalency.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    It is not the same clearly. But the logic behind it is similar. Moreover there is another idea here and that is looking why are there refugees streaming from those countries. It is not because of a natural disaster, it is not random. It is usually because the West had been meddling there directly and via proxies for many years. Obama has been funding rebel groups in Syria probably with full knowledge there is a revolving door between the "rebels" and ISIS. So I see this sudden "support" from the all the tech CEOs a bit hypocritical. How heavily have they been lobbying the administration the last few decades to end foreign interference? Now that Trump did something stupid (and disallowing people who have H1-B visas, already accepted and so on is stupid and counterproductive), they are all happy to jump on the "take a stand platform".
- soneca 10y ago
  Very different bans, dont you think?
  - adventured 10y ago
    This ban was made possible by the last administration. Obama set it all up, in multiple ways. Few seemed to care when he did it. This sudden outrage is the worst type of hypocrisy. Had these people protested Obama's terrible policies, it would have helped the current situation; Obama might have at least listened to his own voters. Liberals will also suddenly re-discover that they don't like the NSA's vast, intrusive spying powers, after the Democrats in the House and Senate barely said a word against Obama's 10x expansion of such over his eight years. Now that all of that power is in Trump's hands, the protests to come are trivial to anticipate.
    - soneca 10y ago
      So you are saying that as Obama's legislation that allowed this to happen wasn't opposed, people shouldn't oppose Trump's use of it for something they are strongly against? I do not live there or perfectly understand American politics, but that does not seem a very robust logical thinking. I am not sure what group of people you refer as "Liberals", but I remember a lot of people, especially in this forum, opposing NSA and privacy threats very fiercely. So I don't know who exactly did not say a word against it. But even if that is true, I still don't get it. The presidential role in itself has a lot of power on presidentialism (is that a word in english?). So if someone I strongly disagree occupy the presidental role do something that is allowed for a president to do that I strongly disagree I can't protest against it because I have not protested against presidentialism before?
moxious 10y ago
So...how are we taking a stand? What's recommended, internet postings? I think we've got those covered.
- MichaelBosworth 10y ago
  https://www.indivisibleguide.com/web https://www.indivisibleguide.com/web
  - tptacek 10y ago
    This is a really fantastic, actionable, and readable guide. It's an effort by Congressional staffers to reverse-engineer what was so effective about the Tea Party. Another good next step is to make a sizable contribution to the ACLU.
    - jpindar 10y ago
      Also, support newspapers. Pay the cost of a few drinks to subscribe to the digital edition instead of working around their paywall.
- return0 10y ago
  by upvoting that post in stackoverflow, of course.
- FLGMwt 10y ago
  It's much more on the personal impact scale, but I built http://offsettrump.com http://offsettrump.com for trying to get people to make things the tiniest bit better.
  - clouddrover 10y ago
    So maybe Trump really will make America great again. It's just that he'll do it by being the counterexample which spurs people to action.
    - 10y ago
starik36 10y ago
Does literally every non-political website needs to talk about Trump? I go to SO for answers, not stands.
- zappo2938 10y ago
  Don't forget to thank the nice, kind people from the banned countries who helped you do your work, make money, and contribute to the overall economy so you can take care of your family.
  - my_ghola 10y ago
    Yes, we want to talk about it, but does it need to be in StackOverflow? Is there a StackExchange for politics? Edit: there is http://politics.stackexchange.com/ http://politics.stackexchange.com/
    - zzleeper 10y ago
      Can you really stay out of politics? Ten years from now, what if Spolski is in jail and SO closed down. Then what?
    - a3n 10y ago
      Spolsky's post was specifically about the SO community. It was the best place and the best time to post it. If you disagree, feel free to moderate the post for irrelevance, I know they have a mechanism to do that over there.
- nooron 10y ago
  Are you any less likely or more likely to support policies based on what you see in digital media? Do the owners of these websites owe it to you to not talk about their opinions? I understand that you may not wish to deal with this. But I suspect many of the people affected by this ban also do not wish to deal with it, and that creating lots of public pressure is the best way to effect change.
- FLGMwt 10y ago
blacksqr 10y ago
The time to take a stand was, of course, election day.
- sytelus 10y ago
  Future historians would be stunned that Trump received 42% of women vote and more Hispanic vote than Romney did. People voted fully knowing what would happen considering Trump had spelled out his actions as president almost on daily basis. Sometime I just don't now if I'm living in a bubble here where everyone around me in tech industry is in protest mode. Could it be the case that people in South/mid-west are rejoicing with all these executive orders? Could it be the case that people protesting are only in slight (3% ?) majority with people who are supporting Trump's actions? It would be great to know what is going on with outside the bubble.
tu7001 10y ago
Great idea open world, communities, et cetera, but how to deal with terrorism? Look at the Europe, how uncontrolled immigration ends.
Anthony-G 10y ago
I found Kasra Rahjerdi’s “answer” to be more affecting. While I thought Joel’s “question” well-written, I found myself agreeing with those saying that it would perhaps have been more appropriate as a blog post. However, the post works well to open the discussion and to provide a platform for Kasra, an Iranian developer working for Stack Overflow to express his thoughts and feelings on how recent developments have effected him personally.
Ajedi32 10y ago
I think it's pretty funny how the question got locked "due to the high amount of off-topic comments generated", given how off-topic the question itself was (in the context of Stack Overflow, of course). Also, wow that question got closed as off-topic a lot! There's almost three pages of closures and subsequent re-opens in the edit history: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/342440/revisions https://meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/342440/revisions

115 points by nmjohn 10y ago

rdtsc 10y ago

Surely all the tech CEOs also took a stand in 2011 when Obama banned refugees from Iraq. Anyone wanna check that... http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-te...

marklyon 10y ago
Or 2015, when the administration put into place the law [1] that the President is using now. If you read the EO [2], you'll note it doesn't actually list the countries. The list was already in place. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/158 https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/158 [2] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3431228/Extreme-Vetting-EO.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3431228/Extreme-V...
TimJRobinson 10y ago
This is about the blanket ban on immigration from 7 countries, not refugees. This ban includes highly skilled workers who already have visas to work in the USA and will have a measurable impact on the economy and future of the USA.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  It is different, sure, but also similar. Given that there was 0 outrage then and now it is up to 11 something doesn't sound right. For them to care so much about immigration, I am sure they at least wrote a toned-down memo, or sent a lobbyist to have a chat with some Congress-person about it. Also, how many CEOs have been lobbying Obama to end the foreign interference which created the suffering and refugee crisis over the years. I am guessing not too many.
  - TimJRobinson 10y ago
    It's different in that this directly affects their companies. This is hurting their own employees many of whom now cannot return to work and restricting the pool of workers they can hire from in the future. It may only be a little pain now but the more the USA restricts immigration (especially with no regards to actual skills these immigrants possess) the less competitive silicon valley will be with the rest of the world.
batbomb 10y ago
Surely this is a false equivalency.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  It is not the same clearly. But the logic behind it is similar. Moreover there is another idea here and that is looking why are there refugees streaming from those countries. It is not because of a natural disaster, it is not random. It is usually because the West had been meddling there directly and via proxies for many years. Obama has been funding rebel groups in Syria probably with full knowledge there is a revolving door between the "rebels" and ISIS. So I see this sudden "support" from the all the tech CEOs a bit hypocritical. How heavily have they been lobbying the administration the last few decades to end foreign interference? Now that Trump did something stupid (and disallowing people who have H1-B visas, already accepted and so on is stupid and counterproductive), they are all happy to jump on the "take a stand platform".
soneca 10y ago
Very different bans, dont you think?
- adventured 10y ago
  This ban was made possible by the last administration. Obama set it all up, in multiple ways. Few seemed to care when he did it. This sudden outrage is the worst type of hypocrisy. Had these people protested Obama's terrible policies, it would have helped the current situation; Obama might have at least listened to his own voters. Liberals will also suddenly re-discover that they don't like the NSA's vast, intrusive spying powers, after the Democrats in the House and Senate barely said a word against Obama's 10x expansion of such over his eight years. Now that all of that power is in Trump's hands, the protests to come are trivial to anticipate.
  - soneca 10y ago
    So you are saying that as Obama's legislation that allowed this to happen wasn't opposed, people shouldn't oppose Trump's use of it for something they are strongly against? I do not live there or perfectly understand American politics, but that does not seem a very robust logical thinking. I am not sure what group of people you refer as "Liberals", but I remember a lot of people, especially in this forum, opposing NSA and privacy threats very fiercely. So I don't know who exactly did not say a word against it. But even if that is true, I still don't get it. The presidential role in itself has a lot of power on presidentialism (is that a word in english?). So if someone I strongly disagree occupy the presidental role do something that is allowed for a president to do that I strongly disagree I can't protest against it because I have not protested against presidentialism before?

moxious 10y ago

So...how are we taking a stand? What's recommended, internet postings? I think we've got those covered.

MichaelBosworth 10y ago
https://www.indivisibleguide.com/web https://www.indivisibleguide.com/web
- tptacek 10y ago
  This is a really fantastic, actionable, and readable guide. It's an effort by Congressional staffers to reverse-engineer what was so effective about the Tea Party. Another good next step is to make a sizable contribution to the ACLU.
  - jpindar 10y ago
    Also, support newspapers. Pay the cost of a few drinks to subscribe to the digital edition instead of working around their paywall.
return0 10y ago
by upvoting that post in stackoverflow, of course.
FLGMwt 10y ago
It's much more on the personal impact scale, but I built http://offsettrump.com http://offsettrump.com for trying to get people to make things the tiniest bit better.
- clouddrover 10y ago
  So maybe Trump really will make America great again. It's just that he'll do it by being the counterexample which spurs people to action.
  - 10y ago

starik36 10y ago

Does literally every non-political website needs to talk about Trump? I go to SO for answers, not stands.

zappo2938 10y ago
Don't forget to thank the nice, kind people from the banned countries who helped you do your work, make money, and contribute to the overall economy so you can take care of your family.
- my_ghola 10y ago
  Yes, we want to talk about it, but does it need to be in StackOverflow? Is there a StackExchange for politics? Edit: there is http://politics.stackexchange.com/ http://politics.stackexchange.com/
  - zzleeper 10y ago
    Can you really stay out of politics? Ten years from now, what if Spolski is in jail and SO closed down. Then what?
  - a3n 10y ago
    Spolsky's post was specifically about the SO community. It was the best place and the best time to post it. If you disagree, feel free to moderate the post for irrelevance, I know they have a mechanism to do that over there.
nooron 10y ago
Are you any less likely or more likely to support policies based on what you see in digital media? Do the owners of these websites owe it to you to not talk about their opinions? I understand that you may not wish to deal with this. But I suspect many of the people affected by this ban also do not wish to deal with it, and that creating lots of public pressure is the best way to effect change.
FLGMwt 10y ago

blacksqr 10y ago

The time to take a stand was, of course, election day.

sytelus 10y ago
Future historians would be stunned that Trump received 42% of women vote and more Hispanic vote than Romney did. People voted fully knowing what would happen considering Trump had spelled out his actions as president almost on daily basis. Sometime I just don't now if I'm living in a bubble here where everyone around me in tech industry is in protest mode. Could it be the case that people in South/mid-west are rejoicing with all these executive orders? Could it be the case that people protesting are only in slight (3% ?) majority with people who are supporting Trump's actions? It would be great to know what is going on with outside the bubble.

tu7001 10y ago

Great idea open world, communities, et cetera, but how to deal with terrorism? Look at the Europe, how uncontrolled immigration ends.

Anthony-G 10y ago

I found Kasra Rahjerdi’s “answer” to be more affecting. While I thought Joel’s “question” well-written, I found myself agreeing with those saying that it would perhaps have been more appropriate as a blog post. However, the post works well to open the discussion and to provide a platform for Kasra, an Iranian developer working for Stack Overflow to express his thoughts and feelings on how recent developments have effected him personally.

Ajedi32 10y ago

I think it's pretty funny how the question got locked "due to the high amount of off-topic comments generated", given how off-topic the question itself was (in the context of Stack Overflow, of course). Also, wow that question got closed as off-topic a lot! There's almost three pages of closures and subsequent re-opens in the edit history: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/342440/revisions https://meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/342440/revisions