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Key line: Gosh, why are you so bitter over a technical issue such as this? Its not about freedom, its about Apple trying to do the right thing for its users. Us

Key line: Gosh, why are you so bitter over a technical issue such as this? Its not about freedom, its about Apple trying to do the right thing for its users. Users, developers and publishers can do whatever they like - they don't have to buy or develop or publish on iPads if they don't want to I have this theory. You see, Apple (mostly) tends to not engage in the all-too-common tricks to try and con you out of your money. Store staff is typically honest and straight-forward, very little pushing and no hidden fees. Apple Care is probably a better value than most extended warrantees, and at least you know you're going to get Apple's level of customer service. Yes, there are lock-ins, but they've always been a trade-off in order to provide a better experience for their customers (i.e. DRM on iTunes sucks, but it was the only way to get the majors to play ball). In general, Apple believes that you should give them money only if you believe their products are worth it. I think it's just that we've gotten so used to capitalism being such a hostile activity between producer and consumer that we forget that there was a time when you would've wanted to pay for something. So, it's no wonder that people want to think that Apple is somehow conning them into giving up their freedom or being locked-down unnecessarily. Really...trust me...you don't have to buy an Apple product. No, seriously, you don't! So why don't you take your "freedom" and "open platform" rant and turn it into a why isn't anyone even close to competing on Apple's level missive.

Osmose 16y ago
It makes me angry that a company that appears to go against my ideals is so popular and successful, because I believe my ideals are better. It's not in any way a good argument, but I might as well admit it rather than claiming otherwise.
- jballanc 16y ago
  So I presume you have started a company based around your ideals? I think people don't realize that there is no magic fairy dust at 1 Infinite Loop. Apple's success is really quite easy to reproduce. It only takes one thing: guts!
  - glhaynes 16y ago
    Well... and talent and taste and opportunity.
    - Kilimanjaro 16y ago
      Taste, above all.
      - IdeaHamster 16y ago
        Taste is nothing without the balls to follow through even when everyone thinks you're crazy.
  - potatolicious 16y ago
    > "Apple's success is really quite easy to reproduce." I doubt this... They're not unbeatable, but let's be honest, a lot of money has been thrown at the "kill Apple" by some very large players with a lot of money and experience. No one has done it yet - I'm not convinced it's really simply a matter of determination.
    - froo 16y ago
      I really think the reason why people haven't done it is they're trying to compete on Apple's terms. Palm trying to out-iPhone the iPhone, Microsoft trying to out-iPod the iPod, both of which weren't successful on the same level. You either need to transcend their technology (which is difficult given the positive brand experience that Apple has) or compete in different fields to truly beat them. This just hasn't happened yet.
      - josefresco 16y ago
        Or they could mount a full-frontal assault like Google is and attack the iPhone from every angle with an open platform. Palm was a small fish, Google, not so much.
    - jimbokun 16y ago
- maxharris 16y ago
  The true in theory is the successful in practice. Have you considered that your ideals could be wrong?
blehn 16y ago
I think that line clarifies what people in the tech industry seem to be missing in this whole controversy: It's not about developers. It's about users, and creating a great experience for them. Developers getting upset about flash not running on the device, apps getting rejected, etc--that's just an unintentional side-effect of putting the user first.
- elblanco 16y ago
  Users do have to use something. Developers make those things.
  - potatolicious 16y ago
    Right, which simply means that the leverage developers have is a non-zero positive value. It doesn't mean it's a large, non-zero positive value. I think recent developments in mobiles have shown that customers have orders of magnitude more leverage above everyone.
  - blehn 16y ago
    That's not to say Apple doesn't care about their developers at all. They've created nice development tools, easy distribution methods that can lead to handsome profits, and they even hold a pretty neat conference for developers once a year. It's just that it's all secondary to their vision for the user.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    I'm only the friend of an armchair economist, but wasn't supply-side economics deemed bullshit? If there are users, the developers will come. Just because there are developers, doesn't guarantee users. This explains everything about Apple and Linux.
    - jasonlotito 16y ago
      Except Linux is used far more than Apple. Just not necessarily on the client side.
timcederman 16y ago
Minor nit - I found the upsell when buying an iPhone at the Boston Apple store crass to say the least. My wife got told she HAD to buy Apple Care to have a warranty, HAD to get Mobile Me "to use the phone properly" and HAD to get an SMS plan if she wanted to send texts. I called to complain and got a fairly hopeless uninterested manager.
- Groxx 16y ago
  Complain further up the chain. Nobody should be doing that, it's preying on the uninformed.
  - timcederman 16y ago
    I'd already invested a lot of time in complaining. Who do I go above the store manager? How would I even figure that out? I sent an email to a generic Apple email address and got no response. What do I do next -- email Steve? It's frustrating, but mainly saddening, as I'd never seen anything quite like that before. A friend of mine bought his iPhone from a New Hampshire AT&T store the following week and the difference was amazing. Since when does a cell phone store have a less pushy sales team?
    - commieneko 16y ago
      I've found the downtown Boston store to be a less than great experience myself. Try the mall Apple store in Burlington, I've had very good experiences there. In fact, I've found the mid sized mall Apple stores to be much more customer centric than the big flagship stores. Maybe it's the high priced real-estate, or maybe the bigger stores just attract more "competitive" sales staff.
Herring 16y ago
> they don't have to buy or develop or publish on iPads if they don't want to That's a non-argument. Like saying if you don't like America why don't you leave. It's designed to shut down criticism. He's saying you should accept (or reject) the entire package without looking at details. > and turn it into a why isn't anyone even close to competing on Apple's level missive. It's certainly not because open platforms are unsuccessful, if that's what you're implying. You can find any number of examples of this.
- IdeaHamster 16y ago
  > That's a non-argument. Like saying if you don't like America why don't you leave. Bzzzt! But thanks for playing... Unfortunately there's this concept known as citizenship. You're sorta born into it (usually). Ask any immigrant you meet, and I'm pretty sure they'll tell you that getting over all the legal requirements associated with moving countries is non-trivial (and that's even considering that the US, for all the criticism it receives, has one of the more open immigration policies in the world). You know what it takes to be free from the tyranny of the iPad? Don't buy one! So why is that a non-argument? Because you're entitled to an iPad under terms and conditions you feel are reasonable? Freedom comes with citizenship because you don't have a choice there... > It's certainly not because open platforms are unsuccessful Did I say that? Here, let me try this again: Apple makes a product and sells it for a price. You have a job (presumably) and make money to spend on products. You can buy Apple's product, or not. They're not trying to trick you by claiming this product is something its not. You, having not entered into a contract commissioning the product they are selling have precisely zero right to demand the product be anything other than what it is. If you don't like the product, buy something else. If there's nothing else comparable to buy your choices are: 1. make something better yourself 2. ask somebody else to make something better for you to buy
  - Herring 16y ago
    Put your pants back on. People don't need a contract to complain. I bought an ipad because I thought the advantages outweighed the disadvantages. I still do. For now, I'll occasionally post about the advantages & occasionally also complain about the disadvantages. Maybe I'll jailbreak it. Or maybe I'll sell it when something better comes along. Life is more complex than "buy something else" & there are more important things to get angry about.
Tichy 16y ago
What does that have to do with anything? Also not sure if it is true or not. "Conning" says too much, but Apple does promise a lot of things that are not really true. Their computers are not that easy to use and not free of problems. A lot of people have been led to believe that their computing problems will all go away if they switch to Apple, which simply isn't true.
davidw 16y ago
> So, it's no wonder that people want to think that Apple is somehow conning them into giving up their freedom or being locked-down unnecessarily. As long as Apple products either 1) play with open standards or 2) remain a niche, that's fine, they can lock in and lock down all their loving fans as much as they want. Not my game, but yeah, I buy other stuff and don't worry about it. The worries start when they get big enough in something to have "positive network externalities" - network effects - that start influencing my life, whether I like it or not. For instance, if their phones managed to really take over the market, it would make it impossible not to deal with their crap for me, and I would at that point face the choice of either having to deal with "Steve's world" or simply not doing mobile phone stuff. I think I'd choose the latter, but it's not a choice I want to be forced into.
josefresco 16y ago
70,000 Android activations/day. Each and every day. It's coming and Apple won't be able to stop it this time either.
ZeroGravitas 16y ago
If the iPad is succesful, then it will affect me whether I buy it or not. Just like Micrsoft's success has filled my inbox with spam from botnets and limited my tech choices in a myriad of ways. Just like Facebook's success means there's no room for an alternative until they really shaft people. It's called network effects and it's one of the basic elements of information technology. That's why we care about what the idiots are buying and what the power-crazed shysters are selling them. Ironically, the answer to your question is that many of the other large companies (e.g. Microsoft, Telcos) have already locked people in and don't even need to care about competing at Apple's level in order to rake in the cash, they just have to occasionally intervene to prevent competition from entering their market. Does that sound familiar in the context on Apple?
- mdolon 16y ago
  A big part of it is psychological - when I was at the Apple store last night, people were waiting in line to play with any and all of the Apple products. Whenever someone would move away from something, another person would jump on it without knowing or caring what it was. If a consumer sees everyone around them buying a product, chances are they're going to want that item too. It's like peer pressure for the consumer market, you buy things to be cool (of course this applies to everything, not just Apple).

Osmose 16y ago

It makes me angry that a company that appears to go against my ideals is so popular and successful, because I believe my ideals are better. It's not in any way a good argument, but I might as well admit it rather than claiming otherwise.

jballanc 16y ago
So I presume you have started a company based around your ideals? I think people don't realize that there is no magic fairy dust at 1 Infinite Loop. Apple's success is really quite easy to reproduce. It only takes one thing: guts!
- glhaynes 16y ago
  Well... and talent and taste and opportunity.
  - Kilimanjaro 16y ago
    Taste, above all.
    - IdeaHamster 16y ago
      Taste is nothing without the balls to follow through even when everyone thinks you're crazy.
- potatolicious 16y ago
  > "Apple's success is really quite easy to reproduce." I doubt this... They're not unbeatable, but let's be honest, a lot of money has been thrown at the "kill Apple" by some very large players with a lot of money and experience. No one has done it yet - I'm not convinced it's really simply a matter of determination.
  - froo 16y ago
    I really think the reason why people haven't done it is they're trying to compete on Apple's terms. Palm trying to out-iPhone the iPhone, Microsoft trying to out-iPod the iPod, both of which weren't successful on the same level. You either need to transcend their technology (which is difficult given the positive brand experience that Apple has) or compete in different fields to truly beat them. This just hasn't happened yet.
    - josefresco 16y ago
      Or they could mount a full-frontal assault like Google is and attack the iPhone from every angle with an open platform. Palm was a small fish, Google, not so much.
  - jimbokun 16y ago
maxharris 16y ago
The true in theory is the successful in practice. Have you considered that your ideals could be wrong?

blehn 16y ago

I think that line clarifies what people in the tech industry seem to be missing in this whole controversy: It's not about developers. It's about users, and creating a great experience for them. Developers getting upset about flash not running on the device, apps getting rejected, etc--that's just an unintentional side-effect of putting the user first.

elblanco 16y ago
Users do have to use something. Developers make those things.
- potatolicious 16y ago
  Right, which simply means that the leverage developers have is a non-zero positive value. It doesn't mean it's a large, non-zero positive value. I think recent developments in mobiles have shown that customers have orders of magnitude more leverage above everyone.
- blehn 16y ago
  That's not to say Apple doesn't care about their developers at all. They've created nice development tools, easy distribution methods that can lead to handsome profits, and they even hold a pretty neat conference for developers once a year. It's just that it's all secondary to their vision for the user.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  I'm only the friend of an armchair economist, but wasn't supply-side economics deemed bullshit? If there are users, the developers will come. Just because there are developers, doesn't guarantee users. This explains everything about Apple and Linux.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    Except Linux is used far more than Apple. Just not necessarily on the client side.

timcederman 16y ago

Minor nit - I found the upsell when buying an iPhone at the Boston Apple store crass to say the least. My wife got told she HAD to buy Apple Care to have a warranty, HAD to get Mobile Me "to use the phone properly" and HAD to get an SMS plan if she wanted to send texts. I called to complain and got a fairly hopeless uninterested manager.

Groxx 16y ago
Complain further up the chain. Nobody should be doing that, it's preying on the uninformed.
- timcederman 16y ago
  I'd already invested a lot of time in complaining. Who do I go above the store manager? How would I even figure that out? I sent an email to a generic Apple email address and got no response. What do I do next -- email Steve? It's frustrating, but mainly saddening, as I'd never seen anything quite like that before. A friend of mine bought his iPhone from a New Hampshire AT&T store the following week and the difference was amazing. Since when does a cell phone store have a less pushy sales team?
  - commieneko 16y ago
    I've found the downtown Boston store to be a less than great experience myself. Try the mall Apple store in Burlington, I've had very good experiences there. In fact, I've found the mid sized mall Apple stores to be much more customer centric than the big flagship stores. Maybe it's the high priced real-estate, or maybe the bigger stores just attract more "competitive" sales staff.

Herring 16y ago

> they don't have to buy or develop or publish on iPads if they don't want to That's a non-argument. Like saying if you don't like America why don't you leave. It's designed to shut down criticism. He's saying you should accept (or reject) the entire package without looking at details. > and turn it into a why isn't anyone even close to competing on Apple's level missive. It's certainly not because open platforms are unsuccessful, if that's what you're implying. You can find any number of examples of this.

IdeaHamster 16y ago
> That's a non-argument. Like saying if you don't like America why don't you leave. Bzzzt! But thanks for playing... Unfortunately there's this concept known as citizenship. You're sorta born into it (usually). Ask any immigrant you meet, and I'm pretty sure they'll tell you that getting over all the legal requirements associated with moving countries is non-trivial (and that's even considering that the US, for all the criticism it receives, has one of the more open immigration policies in the world). You know what it takes to be free from the tyranny of the iPad? Don't buy one! So why is that a non-argument? Because you're entitled to an iPad under terms and conditions you feel are reasonable? Freedom comes with citizenship because you don't have a choice there... > It's certainly not because open platforms are unsuccessful Did I say that? Here, let me try this again: Apple makes a product and sells it for a price. You have a job (presumably) and make money to spend on products. You can buy Apple's product, or not. They're not trying to trick you by claiming this product is something its not. You, having not entered into a contract commissioning the product they are selling have precisely zero right to demand the product be anything other than what it is. If you don't like the product, buy something else. If there's nothing else comparable to buy your choices are: 1. make something better yourself 2. ask somebody else to make something better for you to buy
- Herring 16y ago
  Put your pants back on. People don't need a contract to complain. I bought an ipad because I thought the advantages outweighed the disadvantages. I still do. For now, I'll occasionally post about the advantages & occasionally also complain about the disadvantages. Maybe I'll jailbreak it. Or maybe I'll sell it when something better comes along. Life is more complex than "buy something else" & there are more important things to get angry about.

Tichy 16y ago

What does that have to do with anything? Also not sure if it is true or not. "Conning" says too much, but Apple does promise a lot of things that are not really true. Their computers are not that easy to use and not free of problems. A lot of people have been led to believe that their computing problems will all go away if they switch to Apple, which simply isn't true.

davidw 16y ago

> So, it's no wonder that people want to think that Apple is somehow conning them into giving up their freedom or being locked-down unnecessarily. As long as Apple products either 1) play with open standards or 2) remain a niche, that's fine, they can lock in and lock down all their loving fans as much as they want. Not my game, but yeah, I buy other stuff and don't worry about it. The worries start when they get big enough in something to have "positive network externalities" - network effects - that start influencing my life, whether I like it or not. For instance, if their phones managed to really take over the market, it would make it impossible not to deal with their crap for me, and I would at that point face the choice of either having to deal with "Steve's world" or simply not doing mobile phone stuff. I think I'd choose the latter, but it's not a choice I want to be forced into.

josefresco 16y ago

70,000 Android activations/day. Each and every day. It's coming and Apple won't be able to stop it this time either.

ZeroGravitas 16y ago

If the iPad is succesful, then it will affect me whether I buy it or not. Just like Micrsoft's success has filled my inbox with spam from botnets and limited my tech choices in a myriad of ways. Just like Facebook's success means there's no room for an alternative until they really shaft people. It's called network effects and it's one of the basic elements of information technology. That's why we care about what the idiots are buying and what the power-crazed shysters are selling them. Ironically, the answer to your question is that many of the other large companies (e.g. Microsoft, Telcos) have already locked people in and don't even need to care about competing at Apple's level in order to rake in the cash, they just have to occasionally intervene to prevent competition from entering their market. Does that sound familiar in the context on Apple?

mdolon 16y ago
A big part of it is psychological - when I was at the Apple store last night, people were waiting in line to play with any and all of the Apple products. Whenever someone would move away from something, another person would jump on it without knowing or caring what it was. If a consumer sees everyone around them buying a product, chances are they're going to want that item too. It's like peer pressure for the consumer market, you buy things to be cool (of course this applies to everything, not just Apple).