15 ms·

Ask HN: YC please talk about Immigration Order

223 points by baccredited 10y ago

YC (Sam Altman) you did a great post recently on Affordable Care and the direct impact on YC company employees. Thank you for that, truly. Can you do the same for YC employees from: Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Libya some background: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-28/google-recalls-some-staff-to-u-s-after-trump-immigration-order

eksemplar 10y ago
A year ago America was a country I admired. My girlfriend and I were even planning a vacation to Washington DC and Boston this summer. We're white registered Christians from Scandinavia by the way, so the ban isn't affecting us legally, but we won't visit America under Trump. We won't buy American products under Trump, and I've recently moved all my mail/whatever accounts away from American companies and closed or heavily censored my social media accounts on American networks. This is completely anecdotal but our reaction has been more norm than strange in our circle of friends and coworkers. The immigration order was the last straw.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  It's good to hear that you're standing up for your principals. What's the status of the right-wing movement in the Scandinavian countries? It's really getting a grip in many countries in Europe, and that's been very discouraging to hear.
  - up_so_floating 10y ago
    The OP is just virtue-signaling. He presumably still buys products from third-world dictatorships. Let's ask him. OP, how can you justify boycotting America and not China or a myriad of other countries that are ruled under a far more oppressive regime.
    - nine_k 10y ago
      Which products these might be? Btw a number of vendors mark third world products as "ethically sourced", so it's possible to avoid products from dictatorships.
    - geofft 10y ago
      What's there to justify? Even if 'eksemplar is a hypocrite, but is accurately representing the opinions of a large number of Scandinavians, we, the US, have an economic problem, and saying "You're all hypocrites" isn't going to solve the problem. (Also, go back to Reddit with your "OP" business.)
      - RileyKyeden 10y ago
        > (Also, go back to Reddit with your "OP" business.) OP is short for original post(er). It's much older than both Reddit and HN.
    - toyg 10y ago
      The difference is that places like China have very little influence over "us". We trade, that's it. Whereas the US, through Hollywood, Nato, SV and general industry, has humongous cultural and economic influence. When my Prime Minister goes hand-in-hand with your President and licks his gold-plated boots, we feel it. When you "help" our neighbors fall into civil war and we get millions of refugees, we feel it. And so on and so forth. This why we feel a duty to resist and condemn trends in American politics that we see as destructive: because you are our Rome and we can't afford you to take your imperial duties this lightly.
- tomp 10y ago
  So you were fine with Obama's bombing of said countries, but Trump's prohibition on immigration is unacceptable?
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    The immigration policy of the previous administration would also have rejected the people targeted with the bombs. It's a great rhetorical strategy to conflate the attacks on various militant groups (that many people did oppose) with a blanket policy based on country of origin, but it's pretty weak sauce.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    I don't see where anybody said that. It's possible to think that bombing is wrong, while still holding the opinion that the immigration order is worse.
    - bmm01 10y ago
      If he's going to stop purchasing and using American good and cancel plans to come to America after the immigration policy was implemented, but not after Obama's targeted killings in Yemen and elsewhere, then clearly the former crossed a line while the latter didn't.
    - mhneu 10y ago
      You're replying to a poster who is trying to divert discussion. Please don't engage, because the post is not trying to have a discussion, it's trying to divert the rest of us from talking about the current administration. You're seeing the conservative social media strategy in action -- repeat talking points to divert discussion whenever "their side" is criticized. If we want real discussion we have to ignore efforts to change the subject!
      - matthewmacleod 10y ago
        An awfully good point – thanks.
  - 10y ago
- sixdimensional 10y ago
  As an American this makes me sad. I understand your feelings and actions, but it still makes me sad. I don't think my feeling this way is your fault though. The only thing I can think of to say is that Trump and Trump's actions are "not in my name". Because I believe in kindness it is hard for me to condemn those who voted for him without realizing the extent of what he would actually do, but I personally did not vote for the man nor support his policy or administration. In some ways it is quite strange that we are told that "we have to support the president" because he won the election. I will say I wasn't super happy with our choices this time around in general. So I'm living in a country doing what I can not to allow one president and one administration's policies to tarnish our relationships with other countries and each other, but it still makes me sad to see you feel the way you do. Again, I understand though. Just remember, like good people in the US recognize that there are good people in every other country (all the time, even during tough times), we still have good people too.
  - eksemplar 10y ago
    I'm not giving up hope in America. When you get rid of Trump without ruining your democracy we'll be right over!
- laughingman2 10y ago
  I was thinking of search for jobs in America in order to work in companies that use bleeding edge technologies. (Comparatively the open source scene, tech innovation scene in India is not that good). Trump and his policies have generated similar reactions in me. What about scandanavia? Where to start looking for tech jobs there?
- tdkl 10y ago
  >We're white registered Christians from Scandinavia Your countries are beyond help anyway.
- camus2 10y ago
  > but we won't visit America under Trump I don't think putting all Americans in the same bag because you don't like an elected politician is fair. I'm European and have been to America. It's a country that is extremely diverse. Maine doesn't look like Florida which doesn't look like Texas which doesn't look like California. It would be like boycotting all Europe because some guy you don't like got elected at the European level and took a decision you didn't like. The whole TSA thing is a pain in the arse but I got there by car from Canada and I will always remember the fog descending on the hills on the early morning when I entered Maine, it was just magic. You're missing a lot.
- RestlessMind 10y ago
  A very sincere question to you - do you also boycott things made in China/Russia? Do you think those countries are "better" (whatever that word means to you) than USA under Trump? If yes, I applaud your integrity even though I may not agree with your actions. If no, why do you have different standards?
  - bborud 10y ago
    I don't think not going to the US is the same thing as boycotting goods from nations you have some ideological problem with. I think it is more about the uneasy feeling you get from visiting a country that makes you feel like you have no rights. (And indeed, at the border crossings you really do not have any rights to speak of). As for boycotting goods from China: that's not really possible anymore, so it would be a futile exercise. But that's a different discussion.
    - rory 10y ago
      It seems like the parent is responding to >We won't buy American products under Trump in the grandparent, not the bit about cancelling his vacation.
  - eksemplar 10y ago
    I've never bought a product out of Russia and I've avoided products from other human rights violating countries for years as well. Countries that suck are kind of hard to boycott when you make a living in the tech industry though. The majority of my hardware was made in the west, but I do have an iPhone which was build in China. Our boycott of America is more of a protest than an anti-American sentiment though. I mean, non-US citizens don't have a say in US politics, and rightfully so, but US policies do affect us. So how else would we protest Trump? The reason for avoiding the American cloud, however, has less to do with protesting and more to do with privacy concerns. Especially now that Trump has spoken out against the Privacy Shield.
- 551199 10y ago
  The problem is there is no way to know for sure who is isis fighter or just wants to cause havoc. In one of the Podesta emails they outline that they have no way at the time to know who is bad guy and we should just take hundred thousand of people like that and hope nothing goes wrong? Look at how it went in Europe: rise of rape and terrorist attacks.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Most of the European terrorists were European nationals, not immigrants or refugees. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512 e.g. Salah Abdeslam: French national.
    - 551199 10y ago
      So some are second or third generation immigrants. I see how that makes it convincing argument.
  - ashildr 10y ago
    > rise of rape Please provide a source for this statement or be a liar.
- themgt 10y ago
  From the Iraq invasion, torture, black sites, rendition, Guantanamo, Libya/Syria/Yemen, 26,000 drone bombs dropped on mainly Muslims in 2016 alone, providing UN/economic/military help to Israel's apartheid state, crony capitalism exported around the world through trade deals while criminal bank CEOs walk free after scamming millions of people and nonviolent drug offenders sit in jail for years if not life. And this is just since 2000! If a year ago America was a country you admired, here's some advice: do visit, and don't just go to NYC and SF like most tourists, but rent a car and drive through the country. See what there is to admire about how the leaders of the US have run the country for decades vs. home your Scandinavian countries are run. Go to places that voted for Trump whose jobs are gone, whose infrastructure is falling apart, who have no health care and little opportunities for education, whose life expectancy has declined down to 3rd world levels under the America you admired. Perhaps you will then understand better why many Americans found themselves desperate enough to vote for a madman.
  - emcq 10y ago
    We should be careful about reading too much into this election. There are many well off republicans. Based on the statistics I've seen, Trump had _fewer_ low income voters than Hillary. In addition Trump has similar percentages of male and white votes to GW Bush Senior [0]. While the disenfranchised poor Trump voter paints a pretty narrative, it leaves out a large volume of voters who turned out that dont fit that mold. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/e...
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      This. When people say "working class voter" or "working poor voter", the inevitably implicity define it as a white voter. When you examine an ethnic breakdown of these voters, it becomes evident that this isn't an economic group but rather a racial-economic group. Poor blacks didn't vote for Trump any more than they did for Romney[0] [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trump...
- thesumofall 10y ago
  I can understand the sentiment but I'm not sure if further separation really helps. As a European with strong ties to the US I'm more than saddened by what is happening but also see that Europe is fighting its own daemons. I feel that those of us who believe in an open society (and there are plenty both in the US and Europe) should resist the temptation to cut ourselves off and rather continue to strengthen our ties across the pond. Our friendship built over decades is too important to be lost to what has been happening over the last few years.
- atrendyguy 10y ago
  > A year ago America was a country I admired. This is very childish and shows that you never really knew much about America in the first place. Love it or hate it, our nation was never a Scandinavian hug box. Even under Obama.
- phicoh 10y ago
  Personally I drew the line at the USG demanding to know your social media identities in the ESTA forms. But that was the Obama administration. It is nice to pretend that all problems started with Trump, but in fact the situation of crossing the border and immigration already got worse and worse under Obama. I know two persons who while born in Iran, didn't live there for quite a few years and haven't been able to visit the US for conferences in the last few years.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- threesixandnine 10y ago
  Old man got angry on the village and cut off his dic... I just don't get this obsession with Trump. So what if he is the president of the US? It doesn't change US one bit. You will still find the same people, the same cities, the same landscape as half year ago when Trump was not president yet. Why would you deprive yourself of broadening your horizons just because a guy who you don't like is in charge?
- sh_tinh_hair 10y ago
  Trumps election is a symptom of the effects of perpetual war, associated propaganda and globalization in markets and jobs in the US. He is symbolic of peoples frustration with politics, taught jingoism, and nostalgia for a less complicated world. His selection is also a backlash against a culture too-far: the emphasis on PC thinking and behavior,the new religion of inclusion which older|traditional personalities find to be decadent and repulsive. You can boycott what is 'American' because of Trump but Trump doesn't care about America.
- rory 10y ago
  The United States are an extremely large and diverse country. Trump received 4% of the vote in DC [1] 16% of the vote in Boston [2]. For a Scandinavian comparison, these numbers are both significantly lower than recent national-level polling of the Sweden Democrats at 22% [3]. I really hope you change your mind and visit us, it may help you see through the national stereotype to the subtleties of the situation on the ground. You're welcome to my couch in Boston :). [1] http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2016&f=0&off=0&elect=0&fips=11&submit=Retrieve http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2016&f=0&o... [2] http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/datagraph.php?year=2016&fips=25&f=0&off=0&elect=0 http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/datagraph.php?year=2016&f... (Suffolk County) [3] https://www.rt.com/news/367187-sweden-democrats-second-popular-poll/ https://www.rt.com/news/367187-sweden-democrats-second-popul...
- tn13 10y ago
  That is BS. China is easily one of the most oppressive regimes you must be buying from, you probably use Gas from Russia. Society != Nation. Trump!=America. Trump is an asshole politician (just like Hillary) who has grabbed power. When you refuse to engage in Trade you are not hurting Trump you are hurting average American and yourself. Trump will simply tax Americans more to keep is Airforce One flying.
memming 10y ago
Bad news for all STEM field including high-tech and sciences. US may severely suffer in the long run.
- karthikb 10y ago
  And almost definitely in the short run as even current green card holders are covered in this order. Means that folks who went overseas for (vacation/conference/etc) before the order was signed will not be able to return to work.
  - memming 10y ago
    Yup. Already many such reported cases emerged. Many students & academics...
exit 10y ago
nationality is segregation
- anonnyj 10y ago
  I find it extremely offensive that people are against allowing (literal) tigers to come into the country unchecked. Not all tigers are criminals/murderers. I know a tiger personally. He's a good boy.
  - mavdi 10y ago
    dehumanise much?
muninn_ 10y ago
From the article: "Trump signed an executive order Friday prohibiting entry by people from seven majority-Muslim nations for 90 days. Citizens of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Libya would be banned from entering the U.S. for the period, while the government determines what information it needs to safely admit visitors." I... have a hard time finding this to be that outrageous. I noticed the article mentions that they are muslim-majority, but they are also war zones, which I think matters much more. If it was an anti-islam thing then why wouldn't they ban people from places like Indonesia? For our firm this won't really make a difference right now, and we'll figure out what to do in the coming months. I don't really have a problem with better vetting procedures for people from these countries.
- ledbettj 10y ago
  Can you talk about what the existing procedures are for refugees from these countries, and why they're not sufficient? I would Also be interested in knowing how many terrorist acts have been committed in the US by refugees.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    It takes two years of vetting before a refugee is granted entry to the United States, and even then most applicants are denied. The process includes multiple interviews, background checks, and biometric searches.[1] Why isn't this sufficient? Well, it is sufficient. Your chances of being killed by a refugee turned terrorist is 1 in 3.6 billion according to the Cato Institute.[2] So why isn't considered sufficient? Quite frankly it a political ploy to gain support by stoking unfounded fears of others. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-takes-two-years-for-syrian-refugees-to-apply-to-enter-the-united-states.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-tak... [2] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-foreign-born-domestic-terrorists https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-for...
    - pfarnsworth 10y ago
      Germany had a massive amount of sexual assaults perpetrated over NYE last year, mainly from Middle Eastern immigrants/refugees. Things like this tend to leave lasting bad impressions on refugees in general, regardless of how true it is, and look at how that issue blew up in Merkel's face since then. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/10/leaked-document-says-2000-men-allegedly-assaulted-1200-german-women-on-new-years-eve https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/10...
winter_blue 10y ago
One of the most disturbing things is that one of T's closest advisers actually thinks that there are too many Asian tech CEOs: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-tru...
- Keyframe 10y ago
  This is ridiculous. What's the argumentation? Are non-asian people withheld from positions or unable to start startups because of Asian people? Or, are people from less privileged societies/economies more driven towards success/entrepreneurship? Is there space for lucid and argumented discussion when these kind of statements are being made at all? edit: ok. I get it. Not all that thinly-veiled "not white people hurr durr" talk/racism. No point of discussion.
  - otalp 10y ago
    He's talking about Steve Bannon, Trump's main advisor, who ran Brietbart, which hosts plenty of White Supremacists. That's basically the argument- Asians aren't Americans, we need more of 'us' at the top. That's why Bannon will complain about too many Asian CEOs but won't talk about a lack of Black CEOs. He's not concerned with diversity of any kind, he wants homogeneity.
  - winter_blue 10y ago
    Well, Bannon (Trump's Chief Strategist) is part of what's called the "alt-right" movement. Quoting from a ProPublica article[1]: "The alt-right believes in racially separate nation-states." They are okay with immigrant founders like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, since they are white. It seems like it's non-white immigrants they want to keep out. They also don't seem concerned with the economic impact of excluding non-white immigrants, as Bannon said "A country is more than an economy." [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/right-wing-extremism-white-nationalism-q-and-a-chip-bertlet https://www.propublica.org/article/right-wing-extremism-whit...
    - 10y ago
dctoedt 10y ago
It's been said that the best thing to do is to call your senators' and representatives' local offices and leave a sober, polite voicemail message. That assumes that the voice mailboxes aren't full, as I just learned is the case with my two senators. I used the online contact form instead (which supposedly isn't nearly as effective as a phone call) and will try a phone call again on Monday.
- hangtwenty 10y ago
  The Indivisible Guide, written by former Congressional staffers, supports your comment but goes on to add a lot more context and tips. Highly recommended: https://www.indivisibleguide.com/ https://www.indivisibleguide.com/
ma2rten 10y ago
This executive order is very bad and it's not about muslim-majority or no muslim-majority. The order applies to existing visa and green card holders. Many of these people have build there lives here. Some of them are key employees in American companies. If they are on vacation abroad right now they can't come back to their home and families. If they are in the US, they can't leave the country - even if their jobs might require them to travel abroad. Even worse than that is the uncertainty. I think many are now afraid this order might be extended indefinitely.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
otalp 10y ago
Considering how immigration has in large part made the tech industry what it is today, and considering the CEOs of both Google and Microsoft are immigrants- not from the countries Trump banned today but nevertheless a country with hundreds of millions of Muslims - this is certainly in YCs ballpark. Not only is this order terrible, but this sets a dangerous precedent for the future. Also note that christians from these countries are allowed to apply for refugee status; it's essentially a Muslim ban, a religious ban.
- nolepointer 10y ago
  Because Christians are actually persecuted.
  - bmm01 10y ago
    Many are persecuted for other reasons too.
  - 551199 10y ago
    Yeah it's almost like people don't even do any diligence but emotionally attack Trump in every turn. Do research how christians are persecuted or whats happening to gays and women in Muslim countries.
    - mhneu 10y ago
      We're talking about America persecuting people, not other countries. Don't be trying to divert the conversation.
    - varjag 10y ago
      I like how Trump supporters in synch stated to care about LGBT and women rights in Muslim countries. Probably some popular thread on a Klan forum.
      - 551199 10y ago
        Muslims are against lgbt and womens right but democrats are the ones who want an influx of them. When you think about it's no surprise democrats who founded Klu klux klan would hold similar persecuting opinions dear to even this day.
nojvek 10y ago
I really get a feeling that the discrimination against Muslims will just upset existing muslims in America and elsewhere around the world. Almost 1/10 of the world population identifies with being a muslim. I hope this doesn't backfire on trump that it creates more havoc. America is seen as the Nation of progress. It seems that is no longer the case.
- mistermann 10y ago
  How many muslims did the US kill last year vs other countries?
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Not discounting the US role in civilian death toll, but wouldn't the Syrian government be in the lead for killing Muslims?
  - pfarnsworth 10y ago
    Obama has ordered drone strikes that killed at least over 100 innocent victims in the Middle East. Not to mention the "terrorists" that he blew up. He also executed American citizens without a trial in the Middle East: he ordered a drone strike to kill a suspected terrorist leader who was an American citizen.
- cabalamat 10y ago
  > Almost 1/10 of the world population identifies with being a muslim According to Wikipedia, 23% of people are Muslims, somewhat higher than 1/10.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    My bad. I took a wild conservative guess. I guess it's 2/10. TIL. It's amazing that as a president you can openly criticise and be racist against Muslims. I somewhat predict a recession coming because trump pisses off some major nations.
- manis404 10y ago
earthly100x 10y ago
It's not time to bury heads in the sand. This issue directly affects most everyone here in one way or another. It would be irresponsible to bury our heads in the sand on this one. Michael Eisen, http://www.nature.com/news/geneticist-launches-bid-for-us-senate-1.21381 http://www.nature.com/news/geneticist-launches-bid-for-us-se... Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, Mark Zuckerberg and others are taking a stand. We must unite to do this. We know where sticking our heads in the sand got us the last time...
grey-area 10y ago
This could become an existential problem for YC (and the US tech industry) if these policies are extended, because the much of their intake is immigrants (not sure what percentage, but it must be close to half). Here is Paul Graham's take on it: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/825319115548147713 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/825319115548147713 Sometimes you have to deal with politics, whether you want to or not.
- dkraft 10y ago
  Maybe the industry should support the infrastructure it is in or if it's so great elsewhere - move.
pvnick 10y ago
We can circumvent the rules against political discourse as long as we do it under the veil of listing all the negative things that Republican policies will do for YC.
- RileyKyeden 10y ago
  There is no rule against politics. The guideline says stories about politics are usually off-topic, unless: >"...they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." Going by this thread, it's obviously up for debate whether the submission fits the spirit of the guideline. Aside: If the guidelines count as rules, your comment is definitely against them.
ksajadi 10y ago
After spending thousands of dollars on H1 visas for Iranian nationals, now we are expected to pay state and federal tax for them while they are not allowed to come back to work
- dkraft 10y ago
  Looks like the poor business decision was made a long time ago.
bmm01 10y ago
Wow, the chaos of the Trump administration has now fallen on Hacker News and heated political discussion has ensued. I didn't think there were ever discussions here about US foreign policy, except for how they relate to things with some connection to the industry. How curious!
- waterphone 10y ago
  This relates to the industry—a large part of the tech industry in the U.S. involves people with work visas and green cards who will be excluded from reentry if they come from the countries covered by this order and are currently out of the country or travel internationally.
lazyant 10y ago
1935: let's turn away those Jewish refugees
- lazyant 10y ago
  https://twitter.com/Stl_Manifest https://twitter.com/Stl_Manifest
bborud 10y ago
I'm a white, male from Norway. A country that has pretty close ties to the US and which is probably very unlikely to end up on any list of countries whose citizens will experience much of a hassle in immigration. Over the last couple of months the US has developed from a country that I'd rather not visit to a country I really, really don't want to visit. At least not while its political system appears to be under duress and the situation appears to be extremely volatile. I do travel quite a bit, so this is an actual choice I make several times per year. Just in the last month I've been offered free airline tickets to the US twice, and I declined both offers. One of them was to give a talk (which I really would have liked to), the other was some form of bonus ticket from an airline I fly frequently. Over the last year I've also experienced an increased interest in working here in Norway from people in the tech industry. Mostly white people with US citizenships or green cards working in the bay area. If this goes on for much longer it will hurt the US because right now I don't think many of my peers (people in the tech sector) would want to go there, and due to some of the other executive orders, we don't know if we can safely use cloud providers in the US in the future (it'll be great for local cloud providers though).
mhneu 10y ago
Article is flagged? Trump is trying to manipulate the media to suppress discussion of bad things he does. His trolls have succeeded in suppressing this discussion on HN. A win for Trump and bad for the rest of us.
- grzm 10y ago
  The HN guidelines specifically ask not to use HN to submit posts like this. Please don't post on HN to ask or tell us something (e.g. to ask us questions about Y Combinator, or to ask or complain about moderation). If you want to say something to us, please send it to hn@ycombinator.com. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html On this topic in particular, the discussion is doing little to actually advance conversation and understanding. Your comment itself "His trolls have succeeded in suppressing this discussion on HN" is evidence of that, regardless of what other people are posting. This isn't constructive, civil, or substantive. Edit to add: In the hopes of better communication, if you'd like to down vote this comment, will you also take the time to add a brief reply? I appreciate it.
  - mhneu 10y ago
    Awareness is constructive. Hearing views from abroad is constructive. There are voices here from tech workers in Scandinavia that I couldn't find in traditional news outlets. HN is poorer if it focuses on tech only and not on how society is influenced. Probably I should post some on Feynman's writing on this topic. Have a good day
    - grzm 10y ago
      Awareness is constructive. Hearing views from abroad is constructive. There are voices here from tech workers in Scandinavia that I couldn't find in traditional news outlets. Yes, awareness is constructive. Is there anything in this thread that isn't elsewhere on HN (and likely in spades)? I'm not at all arguing against being able to discuss constructively how society is influenced. Tech in and of itself may be interesting, but it's ultimately empty if it's not used to benefit society. That said, the comments in this thread are not people talking to each other to reach any kind of understanding (even if not agreement). Can you point to any three exchanges where that's happening? Even our exchange, I feel like you've reacted to my comment as only an argument for the submission to be flagged while ignoring why I thought it has been. It has nothing to do with it being non-tech. It has to do with (a) Ask HN's aren't for addressing YC or YC companies, and (b) whether the discussion is actually accomplishing anything. Flamewars do little to advanced anything constructive, even awareness. HN is for civil and substantive discussion. There are plenty of places elsewhere where people can post micro-rants at each other. HN isn't supposed to be one of them.
tn13 10y ago
I have always supported ban to Refugees. But I do not understand why a person who has already got his/her greencard should be denied entry into USA because he/she belong to one of the 7 nations. Pakistand and Saudi Arabia are conveniently not included. I hope these nations respond by confiscating any/all American assets around their territory and expelling American ambassadors.
molecule 10y ago
Ask and ye shall receive: http://blog.samaltman.com/time-to-take-a-stand http://blog.samaltman.com/time-to-take-a-stand

223 points by baccredited 10y ago

eksemplar 10y ago

A year ago America was a country I admired. My girlfriend and I were even planning a vacation to Washington DC and Boston this summer. We're white registered Christians from Scandinavia by the way, so the ban isn't affecting us legally, but we won't visit America under Trump. We won't buy American products under Trump, and I've recently moved all my mail/whatever accounts away from American companies and closed or heavily censored my social media accounts on American networks. This is completely anecdotal but our reaction has been more norm than strange in our circle of friends and coworkers. The immigration order was the last straw.

winter_blue 10y ago
It's good to hear that you're standing up for your principals. What's the status of the right-wing movement in the Scandinavian countries? It's really getting a grip in many countries in Europe, and that's been very discouraging to hear.
- up_so_floating 10y ago
  The OP is just virtue-signaling. He presumably still buys products from third-world dictatorships. Let's ask him. OP, how can you justify boycotting America and not China or a myriad of other countries that are ruled under a far more oppressive regime.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    Which products these might be? Btw a number of vendors mark third world products as "ethically sourced", so it's possible to avoid products from dictatorships.
  - geofft 10y ago
    What's there to justify? Even if 'eksemplar is a hypocrite, but is accurately representing the opinions of a large number of Scandinavians, we, the US, have an economic problem, and saying "You're all hypocrites" isn't going to solve the problem. (Also, go back to Reddit with your "OP" business.)
    - RileyKyeden 10y ago
      > (Also, go back to Reddit with your "OP" business.) OP is short for original post(er). It's much older than both Reddit and HN.
  - toyg 10y ago
    The difference is that places like China have very little influence over "us". We trade, that's it. Whereas the US, through Hollywood, Nato, SV and general industry, has humongous cultural and economic influence. When my Prime Minister goes hand-in-hand with your President and licks his gold-plated boots, we feel it. When you "help" our neighbors fall into civil war and we get millions of refugees, we feel it. And so on and so forth. This why we feel a duty to resist and condemn trends in American politics that we see as destructive: because you are our Rome and we can't afford you to take your imperial duties this lightly.
tomp 10y ago
So you were fine with Obama's bombing of said countries, but Trump's prohibition on immigration is unacceptable?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  The immigration policy of the previous administration would also have rejected the people targeted with the bombs. It's a great rhetorical strategy to conflate the attacks on various militant groups (that many people did oppose) with a blanket policy based on country of origin, but it's pretty weak sauce.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  I don't see where anybody said that. It's possible to think that bombing is wrong, while still holding the opinion that the immigration order is worse.
  - bmm01 10y ago
    If he's going to stop purchasing and using American good and cancel plans to come to America after the immigration policy was implemented, but not after Obama's targeted killings in Yemen and elsewhere, then clearly the former crossed a line while the latter didn't.
  - mhneu 10y ago
    You're replying to a poster who is trying to divert discussion. Please don't engage, because the post is not trying to have a discussion, it's trying to divert the rest of us from talking about the current administration. You're seeing the conservative social media strategy in action -- repeat talking points to divert discussion whenever "their side" is criticized. If we want real discussion we have to ignore efforts to change the subject!
    - matthewmacleod 10y ago
      An awfully good point – thanks.
- 10y ago
sixdimensional 10y ago
As an American this makes me sad. I understand your feelings and actions, but it still makes me sad. I don't think my feeling this way is your fault though. The only thing I can think of to say is that Trump and Trump's actions are "not in my name". Because I believe in kindness it is hard for me to condemn those who voted for him without realizing the extent of what he would actually do, but I personally did not vote for the man nor support his policy or administration. In some ways it is quite strange that we are told that "we have to support the president" because he won the election. I will say I wasn't super happy with our choices this time around in general. So I'm living in a country doing what I can not to allow one president and one administration's policies to tarnish our relationships with other countries and each other, but it still makes me sad to see you feel the way you do. Again, I understand though. Just remember, like good people in the US recognize that there are good people in every other country (all the time, even during tough times), we still have good people too.
- eksemplar 10y ago
  I'm not giving up hope in America. When you get rid of Trump without ruining your democracy we'll be right over!
laughingman2 10y ago
I was thinking of search for jobs in America in order to work in companies that use bleeding edge technologies. (Comparatively the open source scene, tech innovation scene in India is not that good). Trump and his policies have generated similar reactions in me. What about scandanavia? Where to start looking for tech jobs there?
tdkl 10y ago
>We're white registered Christians from Scandinavia Your countries are beyond help anyway.
camus2 10y ago
> but we won't visit America under Trump I don't think putting all Americans in the same bag because you don't like an elected politician is fair. I'm European and have been to America. It's a country that is extremely diverse. Maine doesn't look like Florida which doesn't look like Texas which doesn't look like California. It would be like boycotting all Europe because some guy you don't like got elected at the European level and took a decision you didn't like. The whole TSA thing is a pain in the arse but I got there by car from Canada and I will always remember the fog descending on the hills on the early morning when I entered Maine, it was just magic. You're missing a lot.
RestlessMind 10y ago
A very sincere question to you - do you also boycott things made in China/Russia? Do you think those countries are "better" (whatever that word means to you) than USA under Trump? If yes, I applaud your integrity even though I may not agree with your actions. If no, why do you have different standards?
- bborud 10y ago
  I don't think not going to the US is the same thing as boycotting goods from nations you have some ideological problem with. I think it is more about the uneasy feeling you get from visiting a country that makes you feel like you have no rights. (And indeed, at the border crossings you really do not have any rights to speak of). As for boycotting goods from China: that's not really possible anymore, so it would be a futile exercise. But that's a different discussion.
  - rory 10y ago
    It seems like the parent is responding to >We won't buy American products under Trump in the grandparent, not the bit about cancelling his vacation.
- eksemplar 10y ago
  I've never bought a product out of Russia and I've avoided products from other human rights violating countries for years as well. Countries that suck are kind of hard to boycott when you make a living in the tech industry though. The majority of my hardware was made in the west, but I do have an iPhone which was build in China. Our boycott of America is more of a protest than an anti-American sentiment though. I mean, non-US citizens don't have a say in US politics, and rightfully so, but US policies do affect us. So how else would we protest Trump? The reason for avoiding the American cloud, however, has less to do with protesting and more to do with privacy concerns. Especially now that Trump has spoken out against the Privacy Shield.
551199 10y ago
The problem is there is no way to know for sure who is isis fighter or just wants to cause havoc. In one of the Podesta emails they outline that they have no way at the time to know who is bad guy and we should just take hundred thousand of people like that and hope nothing goes wrong? Look at how it went in Europe: rise of rape and terrorist attacks.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Most of the European terrorists were European nationals, not immigrants or refugees. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512 e.g. Salah Abdeslam: French national.
  - 551199 10y ago
    So some are second or third generation immigrants. I see how that makes it convincing argument.
- ashildr 10y ago
  > rise of rape Please provide a source for this statement or be a liar.
themgt 10y ago
From the Iraq invasion, torture, black sites, rendition, Guantanamo, Libya/Syria/Yemen, 26,000 drone bombs dropped on mainly Muslims in 2016 alone, providing UN/economic/military help to Israel's apartheid state, crony capitalism exported around the world through trade deals while criminal bank CEOs walk free after scamming millions of people and nonviolent drug offenders sit in jail for years if not life. And this is just since 2000! If a year ago America was a country you admired, here's some advice: do visit, and don't just go to NYC and SF like most tourists, but rent a car and drive through the country. See what there is to admire about how the leaders of the US have run the country for decades vs. home your Scandinavian countries are run. Go to places that voted for Trump whose jobs are gone, whose infrastructure is falling apart, who have no health care and little opportunities for education, whose life expectancy has declined down to 3rd world levels under the America you admired. Perhaps you will then understand better why many Americans found themselves desperate enough to vote for a madman.
- emcq 10y ago
  We should be careful about reading too much into this election. There are many well off republicans. Based on the statistics I've seen, Trump had _fewer_ low income voters than Hillary. In addition Trump has similar percentages of male and white votes to GW Bush Senior [0]. While the disenfranchised poor Trump voter paints a pretty narrative, it leaves out a large volume of voters who turned out that dont fit that mold. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/e...
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    This. When people say "working class voter" or "working poor voter", the inevitably implicity define it as a white voter. When you examine an ethnic breakdown of these voters, it becomes evident that this isn't an economic group but rather a racial-economic group. Poor blacks didn't vote for Trump any more than they did for Romney[0] [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trump...
thesumofall 10y ago
I can understand the sentiment but I'm not sure if further separation really helps. As a European with strong ties to the US I'm more than saddened by what is happening but also see that Europe is fighting its own daemons. I feel that those of us who believe in an open society (and there are plenty both in the US and Europe) should resist the temptation to cut ourselves off and rather continue to strengthen our ties across the pond. Our friendship built over decades is too important to be lost to what has been happening over the last few years.
atrendyguy 10y ago
> A year ago America was a country I admired. This is very childish and shows that you never really knew much about America in the first place. Love it or hate it, our nation was never a Scandinavian hug box. Even under Obama.
phicoh 10y ago
Personally I drew the line at the USG demanding to know your social media identities in the ESTA forms. But that was the Obama administration. It is nice to pretend that all problems started with Trump, but in fact the situation of crossing the border and immigration already got worse and worse under Obama. I know two persons who while born in Iran, didn't live there for quite a few years and haven't been able to visit the US for conferences in the last few years.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
threesixandnine 10y ago
Old man got angry on the village and cut off his dic... I just don't get this obsession with Trump. So what if he is the president of the US? It doesn't change US one bit. You will still find the same people, the same cities, the same landscape as half year ago when Trump was not president yet. Why would you deprive yourself of broadening your horizons just because a guy who you don't like is in charge?
sh_tinh_hair 10y ago
Trumps election is a symptom of the effects of perpetual war, associated propaganda and globalization in markets and jobs in the US. He is symbolic of peoples frustration with politics, taught jingoism, and nostalgia for a less complicated world. His selection is also a backlash against a culture too-far: the emphasis on PC thinking and behavior,the new religion of inclusion which older|traditional personalities find to be decadent and repulsive. You can boycott what is 'American' because of Trump but Trump doesn't care about America.
rory 10y ago
The United States are an extremely large and diverse country. Trump received 4% of the vote in DC [1] 16% of the vote in Boston [2]. For a Scandinavian comparison, these numbers are both significantly lower than recent national-level polling of the Sweden Democrats at 22% [3]. I really hope you change your mind and visit us, it may help you see through the national stereotype to the subtleties of the situation on the ground. You're welcome to my couch in Boston :). [1] http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2016&f=0&off=0&elect=0&fips=11&submit=Retrieve http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2016&f=0&o... [2] http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/datagraph.php?year=2016&fips=25&f=0&off=0&elect=0 http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/datagraph.php?year=2016&f... (Suffolk County) [3] https://www.rt.com/news/367187-sweden-democrats-second-popular-poll/ https://www.rt.com/news/367187-sweden-democrats-second-popul...
tn13 10y ago
That is BS. China is easily one of the most oppressive regimes you must be buying from, you probably use Gas from Russia. Society != Nation. Trump!=America. Trump is an asshole politician (just like Hillary) who has grabbed power. When you refuse to engage in Trade you are not hurting Trump you are hurting average American and yourself. Trump will simply tax Americans more to keep is Airforce One flying.

memming 10y ago

Bad news for all STEM field including high-tech and sciences. US may severely suffer in the long run.

karthikb 10y ago
And almost definitely in the short run as even current green card holders are covered in this order. Means that folks who went overseas for (vacation/conference/etc) before the order was signed will not be able to return to work.
- memming 10y ago
  Yup. Already many such reported cases emerged. Many students & academics...

exit 10y ago

nationality is segregation

anonnyj 10y ago
I find it extremely offensive that people are against allowing (literal) tigers to come into the country unchecked. Not all tigers are criminals/murderers. I know a tiger personally. He's a good boy.
- mavdi 10y ago
  dehumanise much?

muninn_ 10y ago

From the article: "Trump signed an executive order Friday prohibiting entry by people from seven majority-Muslim nations for 90 days. Citizens of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Libya would be banned from entering the U.S. for the period, while the government determines what information it needs to safely admit visitors." I... have a hard time finding this to be that outrageous. I noticed the article mentions that they are muslim-majority, but they are also war zones, which I think matters much more. If it was an anti-islam thing then why wouldn't they ban people from places like Indonesia? For our firm this won't really make a difference right now, and we'll figure out what to do in the coming months. I don't really have a problem with better vetting procedures for people from these countries.

ledbettj 10y ago
Can you talk about what the existing procedures are for refugees from these countries, and why they're not sufficient? I would Also be interested in knowing how many terrorist acts have been committed in the US by refugees.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  It takes two years of vetting before a refugee is granted entry to the United States, and even then most applicants are denied. The process includes multiple interviews, background checks, and biometric searches.[1] Why isn't this sufficient? Well, it is sufficient. Your chances of being killed by a refugee turned terrorist is 1 in 3.6 billion according to the Cato Institute.[2] So why isn't considered sufficient? Quite frankly it a political ploy to gain support by stoking unfounded fears of others. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-takes-two-years-for-syrian-refugees-to-apply-to-enter-the-united-states.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-tak... [2] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-foreign-born-domestic-terrorists https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-for...
  - pfarnsworth 10y ago
    Germany had a massive amount of sexual assaults perpetrated over NYE last year, mainly from Middle Eastern immigrants/refugees. Things like this tend to leave lasting bad impressions on refugees in general, regardless of how true it is, and look at how that issue blew up in Merkel's face since then. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/10/leaked-document-says-2000-men-allegedly-assaulted-1200-german-women-on-new-years-eve https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/10...

winter_blue 10y ago

One of the most disturbing things is that one of T's closest advisers actually thinks that there are too many Asian tech CEOs: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-tru...

Keyframe 10y ago
This is ridiculous. What's the argumentation? Are non-asian people withheld from positions or unable to start startups because of Asian people? Or, are people from less privileged societies/economies more driven towards success/entrepreneurship? Is there space for lucid and argumented discussion when these kind of statements are being made at all? edit: ok. I get it. Not all that thinly-veiled "not white people hurr durr" talk/racism. No point of discussion.
- otalp 10y ago
  He's talking about Steve Bannon, Trump's main advisor, who ran Brietbart, which hosts plenty of White Supremacists. That's basically the argument- Asians aren't Americans, we need more of 'us' at the top. That's why Bannon will complain about too many Asian CEOs but won't talk about a lack of Black CEOs. He's not concerned with diversity of any kind, he wants homogeneity.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  Well, Bannon (Trump's Chief Strategist) is part of what's called the "alt-right" movement. Quoting from a ProPublica article[1]: "The alt-right believes in racially separate nation-states." They are okay with immigrant founders like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, since they are white. It seems like it's non-white immigrants they want to keep out. They also don't seem concerned with the economic impact of excluding non-white immigrants, as Bannon said "A country is more than an economy." [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/right-wing-extremism-white-nationalism-q-and-a-chip-bertlet https://www.propublica.org/article/right-wing-extremism-whit...
  - 10y ago

dctoedt 10y ago

It's been said that the best thing to do is to call your senators' and representatives' local offices and leave a sober, polite voicemail message. That assumes that the voice mailboxes aren't full, as I just learned is the case with my two senators. I used the online contact form instead (which supposedly isn't nearly as effective as a phone call) and will try a phone call again on Monday.

hangtwenty 10y ago
The Indivisible Guide, written by former Congressional staffers, supports your comment but goes on to add a lot more context and tips. Highly recommended: https://www.indivisibleguide.com/ https://www.indivisibleguide.com/

ma2rten 10y ago

This executive order is very bad and it's not about muslim-majority or no muslim-majority. The order applies to existing visa and green card holders. Many of these people have build there lives here. Some of them are key employees in American companies. If they are on vacation abroad right now they can't come back to their home and families. If they are in the US, they can't leave the country - even if their jobs might require them to travel abroad. Even worse than that is the uncertainty. I think many are now afraid this order might be extended indefinitely.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

otalp 10y ago

Considering how immigration has in large part made the tech industry what it is today, and considering the CEOs of both Google and Microsoft are immigrants- not from the countries Trump banned today but nevertheless a country with hundreds of millions of Muslims - this is certainly in YCs ballpark. Not only is this order terrible, but this sets a dangerous precedent for the future. Also note that christians from these countries are allowed to apply for refugee status; it's essentially a Muslim ban, a religious ban.

nolepointer 10y ago
Because Christians are actually persecuted.
- bmm01 10y ago
  Many are persecuted for other reasons too.
- 551199 10y ago
  Yeah it's almost like people don't even do any diligence but emotionally attack Trump in every turn. Do research how christians are persecuted or whats happening to gays and women in Muslim countries.
  - mhneu 10y ago
    We're talking about America persecuting people, not other countries. Don't be trying to divert the conversation.
  - varjag 10y ago
    I like how Trump supporters in synch stated to care about LGBT and women rights in Muslim countries. Probably some popular thread on a Klan forum.
    - 551199 10y ago
      Muslims are against lgbt and womens right but democrats are the ones who want an influx of them. When you think about it's no surprise democrats who founded Klu klux klan would hold similar persecuting opinions dear to even this day.

nojvek 10y ago

I really get a feeling that the discrimination against Muslims will just upset existing muslims in America and elsewhere around the world. Almost 1/10 of the world population identifies with being a muslim. I hope this doesn't backfire on trump that it creates more havoc. America is seen as the Nation of progress. It seems that is no longer the case.

mistermann 10y ago
How many muslims did the US kill last year vs other countries?
- tyingq 10y ago
  Not discounting the US role in civilian death toll, but wouldn't the Syrian government be in the lead for killing Muslims?
- pfarnsworth 10y ago
  Obama has ordered drone strikes that killed at least over 100 innocent victims in the Middle East. Not to mention the "terrorists" that he blew up. He also executed American citizens without a trial in the Middle East: he ordered a drone strike to kill a suspected terrorist leader who was an American citizen.
cabalamat 10y ago
> Almost 1/10 of the world population identifies with being a muslim According to Wikipedia, 23% of people are Muslims, somewhat higher than 1/10.
- nojvek 10y ago
  My bad. I took a wild conservative guess. I guess it's 2/10. TIL. It's amazing that as a president you can openly criticise and be racist against Muslims. I somewhat predict a recession coming because trump pisses off some major nations.
manis404 10y ago

earthly100x 10y ago

It's not time to bury heads in the sand. This issue directly affects most everyone here in one way or another. It would be irresponsible to bury our heads in the sand on this one. Michael Eisen, http://www.nature.com/news/geneticist-launches-bid-for-us-senate-1.21381 http://www.nature.com/news/geneticist-launches-bid-for-us-se... Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, Mark Zuckerberg and others are taking a stand. We must unite to do this. We know where sticking our heads in the sand got us the last time...

grey-area 10y ago

This could become an existential problem for YC (and the US tech industry) if these policies are extended, because the much of their intake is immigrants (not sure what percentage, but it must be close to half). Here is Paul Graham's take on it: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/825319115548147713 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/825319115548147713 Sometimes you have to deal with politics, whether you want to or not.

dkraft 10y ago
Maybe the industry should support the infrastructure it is in or if it's so great elsewhere - move.

pvnick 10y ago

We can circumvent the rules against political discourse as long as we do it under the veil of listing all the negative things that Republican policies will do for YC.

RileyKyeden 10y ago
There is no rule against politics. The guideline says stories about politics are usually off-topic, unless: >"...they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." Going by this thread, it's obviously up for debate whether the submission fits the spirit of the guideline. Aside: If the guidelines count as rules, your comment is definitely against them.

ksajadi 10y ago

After spending thousands of dollars on H1 visas for Iranian nationals, now we are expected to pay state and federal tax for them while they are not allowed to come back to work

dkraft 10y ago
Looks like the poor business decision was made a long time ago.

bmm01 10y ago

Wow, the chaos of the Trump administration has now fallen on Hacker News and heated political discussion has ensued. I didn't think there were ever discussions here about US foreign policy, except for how they relate to things with some connection to the industry. How curious!

waterphone 10y ago
This relates to the industry—a large part of the tech industry in the U.S. involves people with work visas and green cards who will be excluded from reentry if they come from the countries covered by this order and are currently out of the country or travel internationally.

lazyant 10y ago

1935: let's turn away those Jewish refugees

lazyant 10y ago
https://twitter.com/Stl_Manifest https://twitter.com/Stl_Manifest

bborud 10y ago

I'm a white, male from Norway. A country that has pretty close ties to the US and which is probably very unlikely to end up on any list of countries whose citizens will experience much of a hassle in immigration. Over the last couple of months the US has developed from a country that I'd rather not visit to a country I really, really don't want to visit. At least not while its political system appears to be under duress and the situation appears to be extremely volatile. I do travel quite a bit, so this is an actual choice I make several times per year. Just in the last month I've been offered free airline tickets to the US twice, and I declined both offers. One of them was to give a talk (which I really would have liked to), the other was some form of bonus ticket from an airline I fly frequently. Over the last year I've also experienced an increased interest in working here in Norway from people in the tech industry. Mostly white people with US citizenships or green cards working in the bay area. If this goes on for much longer it will hurt the US because right now I don't think many of my peers (people in the tech sector) would want to go there, and due to some of the other executive orders, we don't know if we can safely use cloud providers in the US in the future (it'll be great for local cloud providers though).

mhneu 10y ago

Article is flagged? Trump is trying to manipulate the media to suppress discussion of bad things he does. His trolls have succeeded in suppressing this discussion on HN. A win for Trump and bad for the rest of us.

grzm 10y ago
The HN guidelines specifically ask not to use HN to submit posts like this. Please don't post on HN to ask or tell us something (e.g. to ask us questions about Y Combinator, or to ask or complain about moderation). If you want to say something to us, please send it to hn@ycombinator.com. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html On this topic in particular, the discussion is doing little to actually advance conversation and understanding. Your comment itself "His trolls have succeeded in suppressing this discussion on HN" is evidence of that, regardless of what other people are posting. This isn't constructive, civil, or substantive. Edit to add: In the hopes of better communication, if you'd like to down vote this comment, will you also take the time to add a brief reply? I appreciate it.
- mhneu 10y ago
  Awareness is constructive. Hearing views from abroad is constructive. There are voices here from tech workers in Scandinavia that I couldn't find in traditional news outlets. HN is poorer if it focuses on tech only and not on how society is influenced. Probably I should post some on Feynman's writing on this topic. Have a good day
  - grzm 10y ago
    Awareness is constructive. Hearing views from abroad is constructive. There are voices here from tech workers in Scandinavia that I couldn't find in traditional news outlets. Yes, awareness is constructive. Is there anything in this thread that isn't elsewhere on HN (and likely in spades)? I'm not at all arguing against being able to discuss constructively how society is influenced. Tech in and of itself may be interesting, but it's ultimately empty if it's not used to benefit society. That said, the comments in this thread are not people talking to each other to reach any kind of understanding (even if not agreement). Can you point to any three exchanges where that's happening? Even our exchange, I feel like you've reacted to my comment as only an argument for the submission to be flagged while ignoring why I thought it has been. It has nothing to do with it being non-tech. It has to do with (a) Ask HN's aren't for addressing YC or YC companies, and (b) whether the discussion is actually accomplishing anything. Flamewars do little to advanced anything constructive, even awareness. HN is for civil and substantive discussion. There are plenty of places elsewhere where people can post micro-rants at each other. HN isn't supposed to be one of them.

tn13 10y ago

I have always supported ban to Refugees. But I do not understand why a person who has already got his/her greencard should be denied entry into USA because he/she belong to one of the 7 nations. Pakistand and Saudi Arabia are conveniently not included. I hope these nations respond by confiscating any/all American assets around their territory and expelling American ambassadors.

molecule 10y ago

Ask and ye shall receive: http://blog.samaltman.com/time-to-take-a-stand http://blog.samaltman.com/time-to-take-a-stand