12 ms·

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential a

by warwick 16y ago

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near their field of study. They paid tens of thousands of dollars so that they can be secretaries, waitresses, and ice cream parlour cashiers.

matwood 16y ago
Where are all these mythical talented engineers working as cashiers and waitresses?! Last time we hired I interviewed tons of people who frankly had zero clue about programming. We finally found a kid fresh out of school who is super smart, but barely takes showers. At least he gets work done though which makes my day easier and that's what counts ;) At worst a CompSci person should be able to go into government contracting. They are nearly always hiring, mostly require minimum schooling, and the pay is usually pretty good. There are some fields that usually require more than an undergrad degree to do much with them, but that's isn't anything new. Psychology is a great example, where you have to get an MS or PhD in order to go anywhere with it. If the student didn't realize that till graduation day, well that's their fault.
- warwick 16y ago
  Reread the comment. The folks working outside their field are the ones without technical degrees. Incidentally, the ice cream parlour cashier has a psych degree (undergrad only).
  - matwood 16y ago
    Whoops, ignore me. I missed withOUT :) Sorry about that. Where is that story about how it's impossible to multitask again...
hristov 16y ago
Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those subsidised loans. I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to. Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school or not at all. There are many great schools that are ranked much lower. But all of those for profit colleges that advertise heavily are mostly a waste of money. If you want to learn something, go to a school that is either public or private but set up as a non-profit and has an established reputation of supporting scholarship and research. Just forget about the ITT techs and universities of phoenix. Community college would be better than those. I think the government is just too loose with the loans it subsidises.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - boucher 16y ago
    Every school that plays competitive college football advertises on TV during those games (if not also at other times). This includes Stanford, Notre Dame, UCLA, USC, Berkeley, and plenty of other great schools.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on recreational facilities. For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as well. So the real costs are somewhat obscured.
  - hristov 16y ago
    I am not sure I agree with that. I like subsidized loans. They should just be more careful that the loans go to worthwhile schools and degrees.
antidaily 16y ago
I would have guessed the opposite - that your friends with B.A.s would be the ones not working in their field of study. Interesting.
- hugh3 16y ago
  On the upside they probably have decent reading comprehension.
rdtsc 16y ago
What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of the sudden deny it and go against the popular opinion.
- zach 16y ago
  I think we have a logic/emotion split about college, where logically we know college costs lots of actual money and should be regarded as an investment, but our emotions have been manipulated to think of college as a certain kind of life-validating experience. So the decision to go to college is governed by the logic of college as investment, but then the content part is guided by the emotion of college as personal self-realization. So we end up with a society where countless people pour thousands of dollars into attending college for fundamentally emotional reasons. Or even worse, for mistaken factual reasons about the practical benefit of their education. In other words, as Ted Rall put it even before college costs doubled, college is for suckers: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/09.26.96/student-9639.html http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/09.26.96/student-9639...
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    That is a good article. A classic. A key part of it for me is: --- Although America's universities are churning out a steady stream of brain-dead simpletons, our society relies almost exclusively on college credentials as the central determining factor of social status and employment opportunities. --- I know it is a farce. But I also want the HR departments across the country to know that too. (I guess the lesson is: don't work for companies that consider college degree + GPA as the main determinant for your employment criteria).
- lsc 16y ago
  do you have the money to spend? Many of my family members got liberal arts degrees, and they felt enriched by the experience. I know visiting them, it sure looked like they were having a good time, meeting interesting people, etc. Me, I got a SysAdmin job rather than going to school, and continued on in that direction. Sure, when I was my sister's age, I made 5x what she does now, but I don't think that was her primary reason for going to school. I mean people spend that much on cars that aren't any more utilitarian than a $15,000 civic, so why not spend it learning an interesting skill while living around interesting people?

by warwick 16y ago

matwood 16y ago

Where are all these mythical talented engineers working as cashiers and waitresses?! Last time we hired I interviewed tons of people who frankly had zero clue about programming. We finally found a kid fresh out of school who is super smart, but barely takes showers. At least he gets work done though which makes my day easier and that's what counts ;) At worst a CompSci person should be able to go into government contracting. They are nearly always hiring, mostly require minimum schooling, and the pay is usually pretty good. There are some fields that usually require more than an undergrad degree to do much with them, but that's isn't anything new. Psychology is a great example, where you have to get an MS or PhD in order to go anywhere with it. If the student didn't realize that till graduation day, well that's their fault.

warwick 16y ago
Reread the comment. The folks working outside their field are the ones without technical degrees. Incidentally, the ice cream parlour cashier has a psych degree (undergrad only).
- matwood 16y ago
  Whoops, ignore me. I missed withOUT :) Sorry about that. Where is that story about how it's impossible to multitask again...

hristov 16y ago

Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those subsidised loans. I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to. Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school or not at all. There are many great schools that are ranked much lower. But all of those for profit colleges that advertise heavily are mostly a waste of money. If you want to learn something, go to a school that is either public or private but set up as a non-profit and has an established reputation of supporting scholarship and research. Just forget about the ITT techs and universities of phoenix. Community college would be better than those. I think the government is just too loose with the loans it subsidises.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- boucher 16y ago
  Every school that plays competitive college football advertises on TV during those games (if not also at other times). This includes Stanford, Notre Dame, UCLA, USC, Berkeley, and plenty of other great schools.
stretchwithme 16y ago
absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on recreational facilities. For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as well. So the real costs are somewhat obscured.
- hristov 16y ago
  I am not sure I agree with that. I like subsidized loans. They should just be more careful that the loans go to worthwhile schools and degrees.

antidaily 16y ago

I would have guessed the opposite - that your friends with B.A.s would be the ones not working in their field of study. Interesting.

hugh3 16y ago
On the upside they probably have decent reading comprehension.

rdtsc 16y ago

What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of the sudden deny it and go against the popular opinion.

zach 16y ago
I think we have a logic/emotion split about college, where logically we know college costs lots of actual money and should be regarded as an investment, but our emotions have been manipulated to think of college as a certain kind of life-validating experience. So the decision to go to college is governed by the logic of college as investment, but then the content part is guided by the emotion of college as personal self-realization. So we end up with a society where countless people pour thousands of dollars into attending college for fundamentally emotional reasons. Or even worse, for mistaken factual reasons about the practical benefit of their education. In other words, as Ted Rall put it even before college costs doubled, college is for suckers: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/09.26.96/student-9639.html http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/09.26.96/student-9639...
- rdtsc 16y ago
  That is a good article. A classic. A key part of it for me is: --- Although America's universities are churning out a steady stream of brain-dead simpletons, our society relies almost exclusively on college credentials as the central determining factor of social status and employment opportunities. --- I know it is a farce. But I also want the HR departments across the country to know that too. (I guess the lesson is: don't work for companies that consider college degree + GPA as the main determinant for your employment criteria).
lsc 16y ago
do you have the money to spend? Many of my family members got liberal arts degrees, and they felt enriched by the experience. I know visiting them, it sure looked like they were having a good time, meeting interesting people, etc. Me, I got a SysAdmin job rather than going to school, and continued on in that direction. Sure, when I was my sister's age, I made 5x what she does now, but I don't think that was her primary reason for going to school. I mean people spend that much on cars that aren't any more utilitarian than a $15,000 civic, so why not spend it learning an interesting skill while living around interesting people?