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I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling t

by fleitz 17y ago

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

jacoblyles 17y ago
I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemned for prospering at their expense and another reform must be tried. We would rather the vast cognitive middle class take out thousands of dollars in debt and drop out than "admit defeat" by encouraging them to pursue skilled careers in nursing, maintenance and repair, and etc. I am skeptical that the billions of dollars of tax money and individual money spent on the pipe dream of sending every person to college has been worth the expenditure. Plans that ignore reality are doomed to failure, no matter how well-intentioned. And the reality is that not everyone is cut out for Harvard.
- whakojacko 17y ago
  Exactly. The whole "anyone can do anything" culture in America has its benefits, but also its costs. I personally think a good middle ground is to be sending far more students to community colleges. This doesnt immediately comdemn lower-level jobs to the truly determined (as they can transfer out), but it is far more affordable than a 4-year degree without much in the way of a loss of benefits for the students. On the other hand, It seems like far too many jobs in the US require bachelors degrees these days. If a job doesnt require a specific major/set of majors in the posting, the work probably doesnt require a bacheolars at all.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    A recent Econ Talk podcast reviewing a sociologist's study of low-wage workers showed that technical degrees and certificates can make a huge difference in a person's earning potential: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.htm... Though "community college" has a certain stigma among the intellectual classes that debate and shape public policy, these programs make a strong positive impact in people's lives.
  - piguy314 17y ago
    The ROI per dollar of associates degrees and technical certificates is like 3 or 4 times higher than a bachelor's degree. Telling people not to goto university is not the same as telling them to get no further training after high school. I think even Obama conceded this when he phrased his admonition to return to school as "some form of post-highschool education"
- metamemetics 17y ago
  Actually thats what the article just pointed out, that college does not benefit the unintelligent. What fleitz seemed to be pointing out is that it is necessary to examine to what degree college actually benefits the intelligent as well. edit: also, it's funny you used Bill Gates considering he dropped out of college.
- wntdaliv 17y ago
  As a second year undergrad at a UC, I've found that the majority of the people who would appear to not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college courses were simply lacking in fundamental learning that they should have learned in high school or even middle school. All of the students I met that had trouble with calculus had trouble because of their poor algebra skills. The same is true of English classes where students had poor grammar and generally no concept of how to write a structured thesis-driven argument. Even in my upper div algorithms course, the only people who are doing poorly are the ones who did not pay attention in earlier cs classes where we already learned half of this stuff! Clearly some people are truly incapable of excelling at these things, but I don't think that's the majority and I feel that if we could teach people better in k-12 then they would most definitely excel at higher learning schools where k-12 knowledge is expected. But then again I'm young, so what do I know?
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    I assure you that different people have different degrees of cognitive ability. What you say has some truth to it. But a deficit in preparation can be atoned for by a high degree of ability. And no amount of experience will carry someone who is simply over his head. That has been my experience anyways. We are not all geniuses though I wish we were.
    - tokenadult 17y ago
      Better beginning preparation can bring up a whole national average to about the "gifted" level in the United States, in several countries that were formerly poor and backward, http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009001.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009001.pdf and several aspects of primary curricula in the United States are KNOWN to be suboptimal, http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf so there is surely still a lot of room for improvement in the United States.
    - DrSprout 17y ago
      Genius is primarily a learned skill. Yes, some people have more aptitude than others, but the vast majority, if they apply themselves, will do just fine. It's far more a question of a support structure to instill discipline than it is of innate skill. Those who truly cannot learn and maintain discipline are rare.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. He has done some amazing things, and aims to do more, but he did also come from unusual circumstances. http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/ http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/
- natrius 17y ago
  > If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. This part of your otherwise insightful comment is a bit ridiculous. Most people's success is determined by how much money their parents had and what schools their parents could afford to send them to. Circumstances have a pretty huge impact, and if our system is intended to minimize the effects of circumstances, it is failing many people.
  - gaius 17y ago
    OK but where did your parents, or their parents, or their parents get the money in the first place? There are no shortage of examples of people from humble beginnings who're self-made millionaires, and people born into every privilege who squandered it all.
    - natrius 17y ago
      I don't understand where you're going with that argument. It still makes children victims of circumstance.
      - gaius 17y ago
        If everyone is a "victim of circumstance" as you put it, there would be no social mobility at all. But there is, so you are wrong.
Qz 17y ago
Shouldn't the degree reflect intelligence? If not, wtf is the point?
- metamemetics 17y ago
  Rephrased: Do people smart enough to get accepted to college earn the same amount whether they attend or not? Or is actually attending college necessary to earn more because of knowledge imparted in classes?
  - branden 17y ago
    Or is attending college necessary to earn more because employers hire people with degrees? That's hard to quantify, and you'd have to control for it to get the answer.
    - metamemetics 17y ago
      Agreed. Conducting a meaningful longitudinal study with large enough group to control for confounds would be extremely hard. My personal view is of college as an institution where what you are really learning is how to function within institutions. Institutional training is therefore positive if you wish to continue joining institutions (large firms, academia, etc.) but otherwise irrelevant.
matwood 17y ago
You're assuming that intelligence somehow leads to employment and income. I believe intelligence is only one part of the total equation. IMHO, the larger and more substantial part of the equation is discipline and the ability to execute. This is HN, so look at all the startups that people do around here. Are they really that much more intelligent than everyone else on this list? I'm sure they're all smart people, but what they really have above others is the ability to execute. While the average american is watching American Idol they are working on their business idea. While the same american is playing video games or posting on HN ;) they are working their website. Obviously some level of intelligence is required, but I just don't think it's as important as many people believe it to be.
- fleitz 17y ago
  Yes, you're correct. What I meant was more along the lines of what does college actually do in and of itself when you subtract all the factors that go along with those that go to college vs. those that don't. I wonder this because I've always been very hard working and consider myself reasonably successful, yet never went to college. It's funny that you mention playing video games and posting HN as I just stopped playing Portal and thought "I should work on a project" and then fired up HN.
- piguy314 17y ago
  Malcolm Gladwell found in Outliers that the most dominant determinant of professional success was parents income not intelligence. He talks about a study where they tracked a bunch of gifted children from primary school through mid-life and many of the gifted students born to porn or lower-middle class parents fared poorly in life, whereas the average or sub-average students born to wealthy parents did well.
zach 17y ago
Or at least once you account for scholastic aptitude. If only there was a widely-used test that measured it... But seriously, there must be some studies that explain what happens after two students with equal SAT scores graduate with degrees in different fields. Anyone know?

by fleitz 17y ago

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

jacoblyles 17y ago

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemned for prospering at their expense and another reform must be tried. We would rather the vast cognitive middle class take out thousands of dollars in debt and drop out than "admit defeat" by encouraging them to pursue skilled careers in nursing, maintenance and repair, and etc. I am skeptical that the billions of dollars of tax money and individual money spent on the pipe dream of sending every person to college has been worth the expenditure. Plans that ignore reality are doomed to failure, no matter how well-intentioned. And the reality is that not everyone is cut out for Harvard.

whakojacko 17y ago
Exactly. The whole "anyone can do anything" culture in America has its benefits, but also its costs. I personally think a good middle ground is to be sending far more students to community colleges. This doesnt immediately comdemn lower-level jobs to the truly determined (as they can transfer out), but it is far more affordable than a 4-year degree without much in the way of a loss of benefits for the students. On the other hand, It seems like far too many jobs in the US require bachelors degrees these days. If a job doesnt require a specific major/set of majors in the posting, the work probably doesnt require a bacheolars at all.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  A recent Econ Talk podcast reviewing a sociologist's study of low-wage workers showed that technical degrees and certificates can make a huge difference in a person's earning potential: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.htm... Though "community college" has a certain stigma among the intellectual classes that debate and shape public policy, these programs make a strong positive impact in people's lives.
- piguy314 17y ago
  The ROI per dollar of associates degrees and technical certificates is like 3 or 4 times higher than a bachelor's degree. Telling people not to goto university is not the same as telling them to get no further training after high school. I think even Obama conceded this when he phrased his admonition to return to school as "some form of post-highschool education"
metamemetics 17y ago
Actually thats what the article just pointed out, that college does not benefit the unintelligent. What fleitz seemed to be pointing out is that it is necessary to examine to what degree college actually benefits the intelligent as well. edit: also, it's funny you used Bill Gates considering he dropped out of college.
wntdaliv 17y ago
As a second year undergrad at a UC, I've found that the majority of the people who would appear to not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college courses were simply lacking in fundamental learning that they should have learned in high school or even middle school. All of the students I met that had trouble with calculus had trouble because of their poor algebra skills. The same is true of English classes where students had poor grammar and generally no concept of how to write a structured thesis-driven argument. Even in my upper div algorithms course, the only people who are doing poorly are the ones who did not pay attention in earlier cs classes where we already learned half of this stuff! Clearly some people are truly incapable of excelling at these things, but I don't think that's the majority and I feel that if we could teach people better in k-12 then they would most definitely excel at higher learning schools where k-12 knowledge is expected. But then again I'm young, so what do I know?
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  I assure you that different people have different degrees of cognitive ability. What you say has some truth to it. But a deficit in preparation can be atoned for by a high degree of ability. And no amount of experience will carry someone who is simply over his head. That has been my experience anyways. We are not all geniuses though I wish we were.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    Better beginning preparation can bring up a whole national average to about the "gifted" level in the United States, in several countries that were formerly poor and backward, http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009001.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009001.pdf and several aspects of primary curricula in the United States are KNOWN to be suboptimal, http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf so there is surely still a lot of room for improvement in the United States.
  - DrSprout 17y ago
    Genius is primarily a learned skill. Yes, some people have more aptitude than others, but the vast majority, if they apply themselves, will do just fine. It's far more a question of a support structure to instill discipline than it is of innate skill. Those who truly cannot learn and maintain discipline are rare.
tokenadult 17y ago
If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. He has done some amazing things, and aims to do more, but he did also come from unusual circumstances. http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/ http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/
natrius 17y ago
> If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. This part of your otherwise insightful comment is a bit ridiculous. Most people's success is determined by how much money their parents had and what schools their parents could afford to send them to. Circumstances have a pretty huge impact, and if our system is intended to minimize the effects of circumstances, it is failing many people.
- gaius 17y ago
  OK but where did your parents, or their parents, or their parents get the money in the first place? There are no shortage of examples of people from humble beginnings who're self-made millionaires, and people born into every privilege who squandered it all.
  - natrius 17y ago
    I don't understand where you're going with that argument. It still makes children victims of circumstance.
    - gaius 17y ago
      If everyone is a "victim of circumstance" as you put it, there would be no social mobility at all. But there is, so you are wrong.

Qz 17y ago

Shouldn't the degree reflect intelligence? If not, wtf is the point?

metamemetics 17y ago
Rephrased: Do people smart enough to get accepted to college earn the same amount whether they attend or not? Or is actually attending college necessary to earn more because of knowledge imparted in classes?
- branden 17y ago
  Or is attending college necessary to earn more because employers hire people with degrees? That's hard to quantify, and you'd have to control for it to get the answer.
  - metamemetics 17y ago
    Agreed. Conducting a meaningful longitudinal study with large enough group to control for confounds would be extremely hard. My personal view is of college as an institution where what you are really learning is how to function within institutions. Institutional training is therefore positive if you wish to continue joining institutions (large firms, academia, etc.) but otherwise irrelevant.

matwood 17y ago

You're assuming that intelligence somehow leads to employment and income. I believe intelligence is only one part of the total equation. IMHO, the larger and more substantial part of the equation is discipline and the ability to execute. This is HN, so look at all the startups that people do around here. Are they really that much more intelligent than everyone else on this list? I'm sure they're all smart people, but what they really have above others is the ability to execute. While the average american is watching American Idol they are working on their business idea. While the same american is playing video games or posting on HN ;) they are working their website. Obviously some level of intelligence is required, but I just don't think it's as important as many people believe it to be.

fleitz 17y ago
Yes, you're correct. What I meant was more along the lines of what does college actually do in and of itself when you subtract all the factors that go along with those that go to college vs. those that don't. I wonder this because I've always been very hard working and consider myself reasonably successful, yet never went to college. It's funny that you mention playing video games and posting HN as I just stopped playing Portal and thought "I should work on a project" and then fired up HN.
piguy314 17y ago
Malcolm Gladwell found in Outliers that the most dominant determinant of professional success was parents income not intelligence. He talks about a study where they tracked a bunch of gifted children from primary school through mid-life and many of the gifted students born to porn or lower-middle class parents fared poorly in life, whereas the average or sub-average students born to wealthy parents did well.

zach 17y ago

Or at least once you account for scholastic aptitude. If only there was a widely-used test that measured it... But seriously, there must be some studies that explain what happens after two students with equal SAT scores graduate with degrees in different fields. Anyone know?