5 ms·

Is it just me or does this not really seem like that hard of a problem? I mean, it obviously is, but I don't see why they can't just attach an open value to th

Is it just me or does this not really seem like that hard of a problem? I mean, it obviously is, but I don't see why they can't just attach an open value to the tube, then close the valve when it's on. I mean look at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYFYVNvgg-A&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYFYVNvgg-A&feature=playe... Why not just get bulk carriers full of gravel and start dumping it until it's buried? Are you saying that oil can get through a million tons of gravel? If that sounds crazy, BP itself was talking about injecting golf balls into the tube. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/may/10/deepwater-horizon-oil-spill-oil-spills http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/may/10/deepw...

arethuza 16y ago
5000ft is one hell of a depth of water - dump gravel in and it will spread over a huge area. Especially if you dump it one boat load at a time.
fleitz 16y ago
Imagine the pressure the oil is under to be flowing out under 5000 ft of water. I don't think it's a simple situation. I liken it to people who don't know how to program talking about how simple or complex a particular problem is.
- cma 16y ago
  Since oil is lighter than water, it wouldn't need to be under any pressure (just pointing that out; I know that at the rate it is coming out, buoyancy isn't necessarily the dominate effect).
  - ramidarigaz 16y ago
    I don't think that's necessarily true. From what other people have said, there are large quantities of oil spreading underneath the surface of the ocean. While some parts of the oil may be lighter than salt water, I think (disclaimer: no background in the subject whatsoever) that a good portion of the oil is actually heaver. I bet there is huuuuge pressure behind the oil spewing out.
lutorm 16y ago
Gravel is porous. If the oil is overpressurized, covering it with gravel may slow the leak down but it won't stop it. And you've then made any other attempt to do something about it impossible.
tmsh 16y ago
I agree with you. Any solution they do come up with will probably only have an impact until the relief wells are completed (knock on wood) in two months. Dumping/packing in gravel (not from the surface, but via underwater delivery) does seem like a good idea.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Putting a giant funnel on it and then pumping the resulting oil through the funnel sounded like an even better idea than these plans... ... except when they did that, the flow of oil pulled water into the funnel, formed methane hydrate crystals and caused the funnel to start fill-up and start floating away. They might have tried to melt the crystals but I'm guessing there a chance for them to explode or something... So it's a messy problem - at 5,000 the behavior of every substance involved is different. Imagine trying to use a baseball mitt to staunch an open wound (or whatever metaphor for awkward futility you'd like).
barrkel 16y ago
The oil is pushing back against the force exerted by a column of water 5000ft deep - that's about 15MPa, or 1,500 metric tons per square meter. Again, that's not the force with which the oil is coming out; that's the pressure the oil is working against and still gushing out at a ferocious rate.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- tmsh 16y ago
  I would think that, for example, pumping gravel over that leaking area would be all the more effective. You basically just need a lot of volume of some material, and the extreme pressures from above (and gravity) will work in your favor. At any rate, it's not like I have any experience in this. But it's a shame to see people downvoting someone for simply offering an idea. Ah, but such is Hacker News..
  - po 16y ago
    People are down-voting because it's he starts out saying "Is it just me or does this not really seem like that hard of a problem" which is just not true. He then suggests two bad ideas. The gravel idea is especially bad. That's like saying you're going to shut down an industrial fan on the floor of a arena by dropping a box of packing peanuts onto it from the ceiling. The down-votes are people saying "Yes, it's just you. It's a hard problem. Read about it some more and you will see why." Just because it looks simple on Youtube it doesn't mean it's simple. I don't see why you bemoan Hacker News for down-voting a comment that is effectively a waste of time. It's a slap on the wrist. That's OK. Next time, he'll read more about it and think the idea through more before commenting.
    - tmsh 16y ago
      If you look at his entire comment, he's asking questions. What I don't like is that Hacker News sometimes discourages people from asking questions, and promotes a culture of one-upmanship, of putting people in their place (or a 'slap on the wrist'). Perhaps it can't be avoided in an online forum. Perhaps it's the cost of any type of voting system that is trying to save everyone time. But it's a really good way to miss the big picture. Any revolutionary solution to any problem is going to sound wrong at first. It's just worth remembering that sometimes. If you disagree with someone, it doesn't mean you have to downvote. This may seem like a bit of a stretch (this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1350425 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1350425 comment got me thinking about it), but there's a reason governments don't last as pure democracies. There's a reason they kill Socrates and make huge mistakes. The cognitive dissonance associated with 'mob rule' is a very terrifying thing. It's why we balance it with other branches of government, etc. Why we have constitutions, bills of rights that protect a minority's viewpoint from majority rule, in law, etc. Hacker News, newsgroups, the internet...don't have that balance. So the responsibility is with everyone to be even more circumspect, to allow more breathing room, instead of simply reaching for the easy downmod. Or maybe Hacker News isn't a 'classroom'. Maybe it's only for people who don't take much risk in their posts. I suppose there's some value in that. I admit though it seems less honest, interesting and helpful to me as a site for helping startups or people with a startup-like mentality.

arethuza 16y ago

5000ft is one hell of a depth of water - dump gravel in and it will spread over a huge area. Especially if you dump it one boat load at a time.

fleitz 16y ago

Imagine the pressure the oil is under to be flowing out under 5000 ft of water. I don't think it's a simple situation. I liken it to people who don't know how to program talking about how simple or complex a particular problem is.

cma 16y ago
Since oil is lighter than water, it wouldn't need to be under any pressure (just pointing that out; I know that at the rate it is coming out, buoyancy isn't necessarily the dominate effect).
- ramidarigaz 16y ago
  I don't think that's necessarily true. From what other people have said, there are large quantities of oil spreading underneath the surface of the ocean. While some parts of the oil may be lighter than salt water, I think (disclaimer: no background in the subject whatsoever) that a good portion of the oil is actually heaver. I bet there is huuuuge pressure behind the oil spewing out.

lutorm 16y ago

Gravel is porous. If the oil is overpressurized, covering it with gravel may slow the leak down but it won't stop it. And you've then made any other attempt to do something about it impossible.

tmsh 16y ago

I agree with you. Any solution they do come up with will probably only have an impact until the relief wells are completed (knock on wood) in two months. Dumping/packing in gravel (not from the surface, but via underwater delivery) does seem like a good idea.

joe_the_user 16y ago

Putting a giant funnel on it and then pumping the resulting oil through the funnel sounded like an even better idea than these plans... ... except when they did that, the flow of oil pulled water into the funnel, formed methane hydrate crystals and caused the funnel to start fill-up and start floating away. They might have tried to melt the crystals but I'm guessing there a chance for them to explode or something... So it's a messy problem - at 5,000 the behavior of every substance involved is different. Imagine trying to use a baseball mitt to staunch an open wound (or whatever metaphor for awkward futility you'd like).

barrkel 16y ago

The oil is pushing back against the force exerted by a column of water 5000ft deep - that's about 15MPa, or 1,500 metric tons per square meter. Again, that's not the force with which the oil is coming out; that's the pressure the oil is working against and still gushing out at a ferocious rate.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
tmsh 16y ago
I would think that, for example, pumping gravel over that leaking area would be all the more effective. You basically just need a lot of volume of some material, and the extreme pressures from above (and gravity) will work in your favor. At any rate, it's not like I have any experience in this. But it's a shame to see people downvoting someone for simply offering an idea. Ah, but such is Hacker News..
- po 16y ago
  People are down-voting because it's he starts out saying "Is it just me or does this not really seem like that hard of a problem" which is just not true. He then suggests two bad ideas. The gravel idea is especially bad. That's like saying you're going to shut down an industrial fan on the floor of a arena by dropping a box of packing peanuts onto it from the ceiling. The down-votes are people saying "Yes, it's just you. It's a hard problem. Read about it some more and you will see why." Just because it looks simple on Youtube it doesn't mean it's simple. I don't see why you bemoan Hacker News for down-voting a comment that is effectively a waste of time. It's a slap on the wrist. That's OK. Next time, he'll read more about it and think the idea through more before commenting.
  - tmsh 16y ago
    If you look at his entire comment, he's asking questions. What I don't like is that Hacker News sometimes discourages people from asking questions, and promotes a culture of one-upmanship, of putting people in their place (or a 'slap on the wrist'). Perhaps it can't be avoided in an online forum. Perhaps it's the cost of any type of voting system that is trying to save everyone time. But it's a really good way to miss the big picture. Any revolutionary solution to any problem is going to sound wrong at first. It's just worth remembering that sometimes. If you disagree with someone, it doesn't mean you have to downvote. This may seem like a bit of a stretch (this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1350425 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1350425 comment got me thinking about it), but there's a reason governments don't last as pure democracies. There's a reason they kill Socrates and make huge mistakes. The cognitive dissonance associated with 'mob rule' is a very terrifying thing. It's why we balance it with other branches of government, etc. Why we have constitutions, bills of rights that protect a minority's viewpoint from majority rule, in law, etc. Hacker News, newsgroups, the internet...don't have that balance. So the responsibility is with everyone to be even more circumspect, to allow more breathing room, instead of simply reaching for the easy downmod. Or maybe Hacker News isn't a 'classroom'. Maybe it's only for people who don't take much risk in their posts. I suppose there's some value in that. I admit though it seems less honest, interesting and helpful to me as a site for helping startups or people with a startup-like mentality.